Matt wrote: - >My understanding is that a "Wave of Translation" or >soliton is a wave that moves water from one place to >another. The most common one we are likely to >see clearly is the soup wave that runs up the beach >after a wave enters shallow enough water to destroy its >normal orbital wave motion and break. If you watch this >for awhile you will also see waves formed in this near >shore zone that aren't breaking and aren't soups, but >well up in a single smooth steep wave (often somewhat >crossing the breaking soups). Other instances of >Waves of translation could be the waves at the front of a >tidal flow entering a narrowing channel that focuses the >energy such as the Bay of Fundy, Turnigan Arm in AK, the >mouth of the Amazon and several other river mouths abound >the world (known as tidal bores). G'Day Craig, Matt and all, Those waves seem to go by the name "Wave Of The Day" in Oz. The one wave in a thousand that is just huge compared to its neighbours. Or is that a sub set of the phenomenon? Knowing how to tell if the conditions are right for their occurrence would be handy. I met one in a cave last week, fortunately it wasn't too big and I saw it coming long before it broke. I tend to look out for long period waves because of their size when they break and the way they wrap around headlands and close out bays so that there's often no place to easily escape them. Particularly awkward if the waves are repetitive long period waves. Matt thanks for your description of solitons at tidal bores. It made me think about the Severn bore that runs near my parents last home. The bore is a wave that can be a meter or two high at its start and travels for many kilometres in and out of the Severn three or four times a month, due to tidal flow into the progressively diminishing width and depth of the river. Does the term wave of translation refer to water being moved from one place to another, or to a moving wave? If the origin of the wave is tidal as in he Severn bore then it seems reasonable to accept that it refers to water moving but if one considers it as a particular kind of interference pattern then of course its not necessary for the water to move. My remembrance of wave maths makes me want to think that it is the wave in the upper reaches of the bore that is the soliton and that the mouth of the Severn is just moving water in the sense that a rising tide is moving water. It leaves me wondering whether just part or all of the Severn bore can be described as a soliton? All the best, Petero *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think sneakers are better classified as "rogue waves" than as solitons. This Wikipedia citation has a pretty good description of sneakers on the high seas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freak_wave Matt Broze's excellent description of some of the coastal bottom topography conditions which can generate enormous waves _at_a_coastline_ handles waves of that origin. I think what Craig is getting at is a wave that is itself larger than its surrounding cousins, _away_from_ coastline effects (and then, of course, _also_ larger when it gets to a coastline). The citation above may help distinguish these two classes of large waves. Waves of Matt's description are attributed to "diffractive focusing" in the Wikipedia citation above. Waves of nonlinear origin are thought to be very different. Scroll down several screens in the citation to get some terrific descriptions of encounters on the high seas. They will really scare your socks off! Finally, this reference within the Wiki article has a cool animation of how one of these rogue waves can "stand out" amongst smaller ones, as well as a great photo of Matt's diffractive focusing origin: http://www.math.uio.no/~karstent/waves/index_en.html -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Jan 21, 2008 1:22 AM, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: > I think sneakers are better classified as "rogue waves" than as solitons. > This Wikipedia citation has a pretty good description of sneakers on the > high seas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freak_wave > > Remembering that the terminology itself is confusing, in this context, at least, a "sneaker" wave is not the same thing as a "rogue" wave. The sneaker is connected to calm seas, long-period sells and shoal waters or reefs and rocks and (if it indeed exists) is almost unnoticed at sea or in deeper water. While a rogue wave is one large wave out of thousands; a sneaker wave is one large wave out of nowhere. Legends about waves are legion among boat people. It wasn't until recently that the phenomenon of "rogue" waves themselves was documented when a few scientists began to take some of the stories seriously. That and the videos on YouTube. Sneaker waves are only recently being talked about by boaters. The letter to the editor of Latitude 38 (and the response) are clear in their attempts to differentiate "sneaker" waves from the conventional wisdom about waves. No conclusions are drawn by Lat 38 other than these waves seem to occur in late fall and winter, they seem to occur along the coasts of Oregon, Washington, California, and Baja. (but they left room to wonder if they were worldwide), and they seem to be connected to long-period swells - not waves - in otherwise what are described as "flat calm" seas. Latitude 38 is hardly a scientific magazine but they've been collecting "stories" for over 20 years and there may be something to it; enough for kayakers like Melissa and Rob who paddle rock gardens and coastwise in the winter months to keep in mind. At least until there is some better science. Craig Jungers Sunny and VERY cold in Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Quoting Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com>: > On Jan 21, 2008 1:22 AM, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: > >> I think sneakers are better classified as "rogue waves" than as solitons. >> This Wikipedia citation has a pretty good description of sneakers on the >> high seas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freak_wave >> >> Remembering that the terminology itself is confusing, in this context, at > least, a "sneaker" wave is not the same thing as a "rogue" wave. The sneaker > is connected to calm seas, long-period sells and shoal waters or reefs and > rocks and (if it indeed exists) is almost unnoticed at sea or in deeper > water. While a rogue wave is one large wave out of thousands; a sneaker > wave is one large wave out of nowhere. Craig says there are waves on YouTube. Here's one that won't sneak up on you. Not sure I want to know how big it is. Am sure I don't want to see this critter in real time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT8xJJQt0cU&NR=1 Brad (not in Moses Lake, Wa.) (29 F and dropping in Portland) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
While not disputing the evidence, both scientific and anecdotal, of the presence of unexpected large waves, I wonder how often "Rogue Waves" get the blame for poor seamanship. I can think of many instances where I have been told that a "Rogue Wave" caused problems, when the waves were just waves, unpredictable as they are, and the fault was in the judgement or skill of the paddler. On one trip that I was on, RW's were blamed for two incidents, one of which caused serious injuries. The first was poor timing while leaving a dumping-surf beach when a double kayak was snapped in half, causing shoulder and knee injuries. Later in the trip a double was capsized by a "Boomer", a swell breaking over a reef. Others in the party had observed the risk and stayed clear, but the last kayak, racing to catch up, cut straight through and was monstered. Almost certainly as a face-saving exercise the poor old RW was the reported cause. I'm sure that this is common, as it is much easier to blame a freak of nature than oneself! Cheers JKA -- John Kirk-Anderson Banks Peninsula NEW ZEALAND *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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