How do paddlers feel about these new spiral map books (Kermantis has a splash proof atlas I just picked up for Vancouver Island) that can be used to replace marine charts? Or are the map books combined with a GPS covering the basics? http://www.fedpubs.com/subject/outdoor/bc_atlas1.htm Not sure if this has come up before. Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 8:45 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > How do paddlers feel about these new spiral map books (Kermantis has a > splash proof atlas I just picked up for Vancouver Island) that can be used > to replace marine charts? Or are the map books combined with a GPS covering > the basics? > > http://www.fedpubs.com/subject/outdoor/bc_atlas1.htm > > Not sure if this has come up before. > For years Sue and I cruised the San Juan Islands and the Gulf Islands with a couple of these spiral-bound map books in place of marine charts. We had some charts aboard, of course, but the map-books had all the important areas and especially the smaller harbors. I had wondered recently if there was anything like those left for the BC waters. Glad you showed me this, Doug. When I head north into BC I'll definitely have one aboard. Assuming we don't need a passport before I have to go get a replacement. Anyway, I always found that the map-books - with their standard size and often with courses and distances marked on them - were very handy for small boat navigation. We have on in water-resistant paper for the San Juans. The only negative I can think of is that updating them in the standard way (by notices to mariners and light lists publications) is more difficult because the maps don't have the same identification as charts. So the result is that these books seldom - if ever - get updated. But they are cheap enough so that a paddler or boater can simply buy a new one each year. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
11"*14" is still bulky. Less bulky than charts, though. Will take a substantial part of my deck bag - and won't fit into a "map pocket" of on the deckbag, so will have to be stored on the deck. If you carry any deck bag, opening the bag with many small items to retrive the map book isn't a good idea. When I made my own laminated map books for those regions that I needed (following the advice of sombedy on this list), I made it about 8"*10". What is the scale of this atlas, btw? > How do paddlers feel about these new spiral map books (Kermantis has a > splash proof atlas I just picked up for Vancouver Island) that can be used > to replace marine charts? Or are the map books combined with a GPS covering > the basics? > > http://www.fedpubs.com/subject/outdoor/bc_atlas1.htm > > Not sure if this has come up before. > > Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 10:01 PM, alex <al.m_at_3web.net> wrote: > 11"*14" is still bulky. Less bulky than charts, though. Will take a > substantial part of my deck bag - and won't fit into a "map pocket" of on > the deckbag, so will have to be stored on the deck. My Nimbus Telkwa, my wife's Nimbus Solander, and my Mariner Express and Mariner Coaster all have under-the-deck map shelves. The Telkwa has a fabric one, the Solander has a hard plastic. The two Mariners have the move clever map shelf though; theirs is hard plastic that flips from tensioned-up (against the deck) to tensioned down (about 3 inches below the deck). Picture a playing card held between two hands... now apply pressure to move the hands together and the card can be flipped up or down. In addition, the hand pump is suspected from bungee cords from the chart shelf on the Mariners. The Nimbus shelves are better for holding water bottles, etc. because they are flat (or mostly flat). Anyway, the chart book I have for the San Juan Islands fits fine on any of these chart shelves. I recommend that anyone who hasn't got one already have one installed. They are marvelous. Of course, one has to open the spray deck to get to the maps (or charts) but I can mark them with courselines and escape routes and can keep them in mind while using the GPS on deck for reference. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug and All, Down here is Southern California on Channel Islands trips, I like using the Maptech waterproof folding charts. I just keep the chart without any protective cover in my day hatch and pull it out when necessary. I don't use a chart a lot on the water. The night before a crossing or paddle, I study the chart, memorize any bearings, and try to keep everything in my head. Then again, with distinct islands, navigation isn't terribly confusing down here. Though, on my last trip, I did pull out a chart and shoot a bearing to make sure our group cleared a reef where a long period swell was breaking about every 10 minutes. I also have some West Marine waterproof spiral bound charts and sometimes rip the pages out, fold them up, and stuff them in my day hatch. Duane www.rollordrown.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The main charts look like 1 inch = 1 mile? Not sure. These are not like the mini-charts many kayakers use around here. The Kermantis maps tie in with his essential guide book series I think. Kermantis is taking over Wavelength magazine for the/by the September issue; working hard on a marine trail ralley, and was up in Port Hardy this weekend for the opening of the new North Trail to Cape Scott starting in Susharti Bay. This guys a mover and a shaker. DL > 11"*14" is still bulky. Less bulky than charts, though. Will take a > substantial part of my deck bag - and won't fit into a "map pocket" of on > the deckbag, so will have to be stored on the deck. If you carry any deck > bag, opening the bag with many small items to retrive the map book isn't a > good idea. When I made my own laminated map books for those regions that > I > needed (following the advice of sombedy on this list), I made it about > 8"*10". What is the scale of this atlas, btw? > >> How do paddlers feel about these new spiral map books (Kermantis has a >> splash proof atlas I just picked up for Vancouver Island) that can be >> used >> to replace marine charts? Or are the map books combined with a GPS > covering >> the basics? >> >> http://www.fedpubs.com/subject/outdoor/bc_atlas1.htm >> >> Not sure if this has come up before. >> >> Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 1:31 AM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > The main charts look like 1 inch = 1 mile? Not sure. > > These are not like the mini-charts many kayakers use around here. The > Kermantis maps tie in with his essential guide book series I think. > Kermantis is taking over Wavelength magazine for the/by the September issue; > working hard on a marine trail ralley, and was up in Port Hardy this weekend > for the opening of the new North Trail to Cape Scott starting in Susharti > Bay. This guys a mover and a shaker. > With an excellent article in the June, 2008 issue of Sea Kayaker about the changes in control of BC land from Crown to First Nations. Yes... John Kimantis is someone who is certainly going to make a big impression on kayakers of BC and the PNW of the USA. And, I expect. everywhere. I just hope he can make a dent in the way the USA and Canada seem to be moving in terms of border crossing. I really want to spend a lot of time up there in the next few years and prefer not to have a hassle when moving back and forth. Oh... and marine navigational charts have different scales depending on the area covered. You can only get so big even for a ship's navigation station. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > Kermantis maps tie in with his essential guide book series I think > Kermantis is taking over Wavelength magazine for the/by the September > issue; His guide books may be good but I hardly think they're, "essential." Hundreds of others have somehow managed to do just fine without them. I do want to thank John Kermantis for publishing what may be the most current and up to date guide book series. With these books tucked under their foredecks countless paddlers, pressed for time, or lacking the wherewithal to explore for themselves will be heading to his recommended camping sites. I'll be heading somewhere else. Gordin Warner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
That's Kimantas, not Kermantis...the frog. :-) Whew, late nights here are catching up. Doug L > What Gordin, you one of those Chris Duff-like paddkers? How did that > go...paddle out, turn right, and keep the coast to your right the whole > way? :-) > > Yeah, guide books are hardly essential though. Gotta give Kermantis credit > for marketing stratagem. > > If I ever had got a web site up and running, I'd have had free coastline > maps available for print that could be laminated, formatted in a strip > pattern joining the lengths of coast together or perhaps some Google Earth > type link too. No campsites marked though, just features, hazards, and > hints at areas for stopping. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
What Gordin, you one of those Chris Duff-like paddkers? How did that go...paddle out, turn right, and keep the coast to your right the whole way? :-) Yeah, guide books are hardly essential though. Gotta give Kermantis credit for marketing stratagem. If I ever had got a web site up and running, I'd have had free coastline maps available for print that could be laminated, formatted in a strip pattern joining the lengths of coast together or perhaps some Google Earth type link too. No campsites marked though, just features, hazards, and hints at areas for stopping. Alternatively, a smaller map pseudo chart book could be printed off. I was going to do this years ago, make it instantly updatable, include much more First Nation information and areas of concern, but the guy I paddled with wrote his own guide books, Kirby came up with his Coastal Recreation Maps (now concentrating on Baja), and finally Kermantis came along with the kind of professional ilan that I think the situation deserved. I never want to tackle something unless I can do a real bang-on right job. And you knew how busy I've been this last decade. I was also interested in the Marine Trail push (if only for the preservation of access, a opposed to promoting more paddlers coming to our waters, which we've had huge discussions here on PW about in the past). Anyway, might see you at some of those alternate spots. I'll make sure I get there first. :-) Fine kayaking to all. Doug L > Gordin Warner wrotek > >Doug Lloyd wrote: > >> Kermantis maps tie in with his essential guide book series I think >> Kermantis is taking over Wavelength magazine for the/by the September >> issue; > > His guide books may be good but I hardly think they're, "essential." > Hundreds of others have somehow managed to do just fine without them. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have two free maps that I created before trips that are available free on the web: 1. Cape Scott and North Vancouver 2. Coast of Nootka Island http://rrlivingston.com/Site/Kayaking.html Now before I go on a kayak trip I get data on where I am going and make a map. The very act of making the map teaches me about the coast that I will be traveling. I can print it at any size and in any format. I will often cut (digitally) various pieces of the map and compose them on a piece of paper for the actual trip so I can have just one small piece of paper on deck for the various day paddles I am now working on the Washington Coast as we will be doing Cape Flattery to Destruction Island this summer. Trying to combine data from Google maps, US Charts, a series of coast photographs that are available on line and Geodesic Survey. Interesting how they so not all match in the details that concern me most -- where can I land at what tides under what conditions. The US Charts for the ocean coast are not that helpful for small boats. I really do not like the trend of guidebooks / detailed annotated maps since I enjoyed the sense of adventure in not having them but those days are not coming back I am a big fan of the waterproof paper and printing the maps rather than the lamination which tends to delaminate. On May 11, 2008, at 10:42 AM, Doug Lloyd wrote: > If I ever had got a web site up and running, I'd have had free > coastline maps available for print that could be laminated *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My apologies if this has been already discussed, but I don't remember. I'm using a semi-submersible headlight Aurora by Princeton Tec, 3 LED, powered by 3 AAA. It's water-resistant according to Princeton, but can survive some immersion (not that I recommend, but it can). It is similar to Petzl Tikka. Until recently I was satisfied with no-name non-rechargeable AAA battery life - I didn't clock the time, but at least 40-50 hours at medium power mode. (According to the specs, it is 110 hours). Getting obsessed with being "green", eventually bought NiMh Duracell 1000 mAh (not a bad brand, right)? Made in Japan - not China. Charger is good too (Maha). These NiMh were dead after a week of roughly 20 total hours. Self-discharge and hot weather a primary suspect, so here goes home testing, freshly charged, non-stop medium mode light on. (Drum roll)... Result: 22-24 hours. Testing old Alcaline AAA (such oddity does exist) - didn't expect much from them, old and without even capacity shown. About the same: 20-22 hours. It is interesting that these ones had 1.5V written on them, as opposed to 1.2V on NiMh (the voltage drops later with discharge, naturally). My GPS (2AA) never showed a big difference in battery life of non-rechargeables and NiMh rechargeables, with the best of them providing about 80% of the Garmin's alleged time. But such a discrepancy - 22 hrs vs claimed 110 hrs is stunning. Like I said, I don't know but am 100% positive that any low-end non-rechargeables worked at least 50 hours in Aurora headlight. Bad batch of Duracell? Anybody else with LED headlights experienced MUCH lower times than those written on the package? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Testing old Alcaline AAA (such oddity does exist) - I meant, - rechargeable Alcaline AAA. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Alex, I can't speak to your specific headlamp, but the chief benefit of rechargeable alkaline cells is that they have a very low self-discharge rate rather than a high capacity, so I'm not surprised you got no better results with them. I don't use mine much any more, and when the last one dies, I'm going to donate the charger to Goodwill. NiMH cells are getting better, though, with a new variety that has a low self-discharge rate. See the Sanyo Eneloop cells at http://thomasdistributing.com/. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
the chief benefit of > rechargeable alkaline cells is that they have a very low self-discharge > rate rather than a high capacity, so I'm not surprised you got no better > results with them. I don't use mine much any more, and when the last one > dies, I'm going to donate the charger to Goodwill. Oh, I didn't expect those rechargeable alcalines to be better than NiMh - but they almost were :-) ... I was more upset with meager 24 hours vs claimed 110 hours. Still need to test it on non-recahrgeablse, but it will be longer than with 1000 mah rechargeables - it should be, always is. may be not 110, but around 40 hours on medium beam, to my (increasingly poor) memory. Interesting info from http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/Lighting/Headlamps%20-%20LED/Princet on%20Tec%20%20Aurora%20LED%20Headlamp/Owner%20Review%20by%20Rick%20Dreher/ Nobody of backpackers crowd bothered to measure battery life and all but one reviewers say something like "don't know how long, but still works after 20 trips". (Weekend trips with 1 hour of use? Or weeklong trips? God knows)... But one guy, referring to testing by REI, says: "REI - which does its own product testing - gives the following Aurora battery life specifications (in hours): at 70 deg. F: 17:32 on high, 50:41 on low". Well, if this it's 17.5 hours on high beam and 51 hours on low, then my recollection of around 40 hours on medium is correct (34 hours, if you simply average 2 numbers, which is a rough estimate, as "medium" beam doesn't necessarily take 1/2 current of the high beam). Anyway, with 34 hours on non-rechargeables (I assume - still can't find this REI data) 24 hours on rechargeable AND after 10 days of trip sounds pretty normal. Doesn't sound normal, of course, compared to the alleged 110 hours (!!!) from the manufacturer. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
As USUAL, you are way ahead of us. Didn't you have the first Mariner Coaster like kayak design too? Thanks for the link. With our busy lives these days, annotated maps are here to stay. Sex is a spectator sport now on the internet now. That chart-like, guide-book resources are so readily available to modern kayakers taking away some of the mystery is only in keeping with post modern adventure. If anyone wants a picture of me with my most used laminated chart, just email me for a jpeg. Doug L >I have two free maps that I created before trips that are available free >on the web: > > 1. Cape Scott and North Vancouver > > 2. Coast of Nootka Island > > http://rrlivingston.com/Site/Kayaking.html > > > > > Now before I go on a kayak trip I get data on where I am going and make a > map. The very act of making the map teaches me about the coast that I > will be traveling. > I can print it at any size and in any format. I will often cut > (digitally) various pieces of the map and compose them on a piece of > paper for the actual trip so I can have just one small piece of paper on > deck for the various day paddles > > I am now working on the Washington Coast as we will be doing Cape > Flattery to Destruction Island this summer. Trying to combine data from > Google maps, US Charts, a series of coast photographs that are available > on line and Geodesic Survey. Interesting how they so not all match in the > details that concern me most -- where can I land at what tides under what > conditions. The US Charts for the ocean coast are not that helpful for > small boats. > > I really do not like the trend of guidebooks / detailed annotated maps > since I enjoyed the sense of adventure in not having them but those days > are not coming back > > I am a big fan of the waterproof paper and printing the maps rather than > the lamination which tends to delaminate. > > > > > On May 11, 2008, at 10:42 AM, Doug Lloyd wrote: > >> If I ever had got a web site up and running, I'd have had free coastline >> maps available for print that could be laminated *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 11:16 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > As USUAL, you are way ahead of us. Didn't you have the first Mariner > Coaster like kayak design too? > > Thanks for the link. With our busy lives these days, annotated maps are > here to stay. Sex is a spectator sport now on the internet now. That > chart-like, guide-book resources are so readily available to modern kayakers > taking away some of the mystery is only in keeping with post modern > adventure. Let me put in a word or two in defense of guidebooks. I'll admit that the spirit of adventure is somewhat diminished by using them. But we all don't live on Vancouver Island (and I'll bet you're grateful for that) with the incredible access to paddling waters you have. Seattle isn't bad... but Victoria is in a class by itself for access to islands, calm bays, current-ridden passages, and even reasonable weather to do it all in. So those of us who live in, say, the desert (ahem!) don't have the time to spend in search of that hidden gem. We can't just throw the boat on the car and 30 minutes later be in exciting salt water with no crowds. I just got home from a 2300 mile drive with the last 1200 miles along the coastline of California and you'd better believe that I had two - count 'em: two - guidebooks for California on the seat right next to me. And if I hadn't had them then I would have missed some good kayaking. Those of us who live far away from exotic places don't begrudge your access - much. But those guidebooks bring people who use guides, rent equipment and otherwise add to the economy. You might have to work harder to find those exotic places but your proximity to them is what makes it more possible for you than, say, me. And it's likely that someone will put those in a guidebook eventually, too,. Then you'll have to go further afield. Just be grateful that you don't have to drive five hours to paddle the Gulf Islands. I just wish it was easier - politically - to paddle from, say, Friday Harbor to S. Pender. If anyone wants a picture of me with my most used laminated chart, just > email me for a jpeg. > If you have some of those charts in digital format, maybe Robert would consider putting them on his web site. I must admit that I was impressed with those he had done. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'm all over the map on guidebooks. I agree the existence of a guidebook concentrates and focuses visitors to an area. That's a bad thing if your favorite spot gets identified as a primo site in a new guidebook. Worse if appears on the front cover of a glossy broadly-based publication like Sunset. [Yes that has happened to me; once, the magazine was in the mail when I returned from that isolated spot deep in the High Cascades of WA. Another time a photo of another fave spot was on the cover of 102 Hikes (the original one).] But, the other side of the coin can be a good thing if the guidebook author has taken some care in identifying "commonly known" sites and has ... ahhhmmm ... "overlooked" others, leaving serendipity to those equipped to enjoy it; and, the common sites, for the throngs who might not know or appreciate the difference. Chances are, the throngs can't find the secret spots because the guidebook has blinded them to looking. Philip Jones has done this on the Lower Columbia, I know for a fact. Thanks, Philip! I do not agree with Craig's implicit thesis that those who live near a primo area should feel sorry for those who "have" to live hundreds of miles away. I live in a primo paddling area, and like others who make a living (_made_, in my case) in a less than desirable location from a professional standpoint, I've already taken my lumps, thank you. I'll wear my xenophobia proudly because I've earned it, trading quality of life for bucks and professional status. Finally, I respect those who resent my arrival on "their" favorite paddling areas some can be charmed; others not. Everybody has a sense of ownership about his/her special places, even if we do not actually possess a deed or title to them. The third side of the coin is a failure of an assumption: that a guidebook will always result in way more people. I believed that when I started paddling on the Lower Columbia in 1992. My paddling partner (The Curmudgeon) and I purposely mislead people about where we paddled, and made up off the wall names for where we camped (e.g., Dead Wild Pig Island). It is now sixteen years later and the actual number of paddlers using "our" River is about double what it was; hardly a population explosion, and an increase which has not diminished the quality of my paddling experiences or my sense of isolation on the water. In 1992 we never saw other paddlers; in 2008 I see them every fifth or sixth trip. BFD. I'll put my money where my mouth is for the third side of the coin. Here is the liturgy of my paddling experiences on the Lower Columbia: http://www.kayaktrips.net/sea-kayak/cat_dave_kruger.html Go for it. Paddle your selves silly! You still won't see me, I bet! PS: Don't forget the frappachino, Craig! [sly grin] -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 1:23 PM, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: > > I agree the existence of a guidebook concentrates and focuses visitors to > an area. That's a bad thing if your favorite spot gets identified as a > primo site in a new guidebook. The entire guidebook idea (at least in the Pacific Northwest) had its genesis in the Seattle area in the mid 1960s with the introduction of a small pamphlet published by the Mountaineers called "The Signpost". Hikers either loved it or hated it, depending upon whether their favorite hike became hippy heaven. There were few rules about hiking or climbing in those days and many climbing routes were identified in Signpost and favorite pitches were bolted for "safety". The idea was that if there were bolts then fewer pitons would be pounded into crevices and subsequently removed; over and over and over. REI was a little-known store catering to hikers and climbers. Many of my friends didn't bother to get memberships until we had gotten over our fear of "belonging" to something. I never did join the Mountaineers because it just seemed way too organized to suit my tastes. > But, the other side of the coin can be a good thing if the guidebook > author has taken some care in identifying "commonly known" sites and has ... > ahhhmmm ... "overlooked" others, leaving serendipity to those equipped to > enjoy it; and, the common sites, for the throngs who might not know or > appreciate the difference. No guidebook can identify every good spot but The Signpost certainly managed to identify enough favorite places that it pissed off a goodly number of the original cadre of hikers and climbers in the Cascades. I notice now that the hiking guides concentrate on the more well-known trails. There are still good, but more difficult, trails to nice places that they don't bother with. However, there are damn few chances to be the first to climb a particular pitch nowadays. This is simply a fact of life when you live in a big metropolitan area. Chances are, the throngs can't find the secret spots because the guidebook > has blinded them to looking. Philip Jones has done this on the Lower > Columbia, I know for a fact. Thanks, Philip! Well, again, someone new to the area or paddling from Portland or Seattle will naturally be attracted to the known places. You probably paddled those areas first 35 years ago because they were simple, the camping spots easy to recognize, and there was a store with cold beer within walking distance. :) > > I do not agree with Craig's implicit thesis that those who live near a > primo area should feel sorry for those who "have" to live hundreds of miles > away. I'm not sure I implied that. You might have inferred it, but it wasn't my intention. I tried to make the point that no one can live in ALL the primo paddling places. To at least some extent, unless you doggedly paddle the same waters year after year, you are going to trespass on someone else's turf at some point. Trying to find out from the locals where to paddle is likely to send you down a tidal race so the guidebook for that area is your main choice. And it most certainly was before the Internet. Now, of course, people blab about their paddles on West Coast Paddler or Paddlewise routinely. > > Everybody has a sense of ownership about his/her special places, even if > we do not actually possess a deed or title to them. It's often misplaced though. A Californian who owns only to the mean high tide level might think he owns everything that isn't water and try to chase anyone off who "trespasses" on "his" land at low tide. Or ranchers who fence across a popular paddling stream (the Palouse in eastern Washington suffers from this). Or paddlers who discover that the places they thought were open to all (but kept secret) might now fall under the control of First Nations' peoples who may not share the interests of the paddlers. Even when you have a deed, parts of it might not be under your control. And if Wal-Mart wants it our Supreme Court says that the local government can take it and sell it to them. The good thing about guidebooks is that they introduce new people to the activity and we get water trails, human-powered-only launch areas, better gear, and political clout. The bad thing about guidebooks is that they introduce new people to the activity and we get naive newbies in dangerous places, too many tents on Cypress Island, crappy gear designed to only appear useful and political attention. Nothing is all good, all the time. > > The third side of the coin is a failure of an assumption: that a > guidebook will always result in way more people. I believed that when I > started paddling on the Lower Columbia in 1992. My paddling partner (The > Curmudgeon) and I purposely mislead people about where we paddled, and made > up off the wall names for where we camped (e.g., Dead Wild Pig Island). It > is now sixteen years later and the actual number of paddlers using "our" > River is about double what it was; hardly a population explosion, and an > increase which has not diminished the quality of my paddling experiences or > my sense of isolation on the water. In 1992 we never saw other paddlers; in > 2008 I see them every fifth or sixth trip. BFD. Probably true. Small towns in central Washington state (like Mattewa, as an example) are often touted as the "fastest growing municipal area in the country". It's not hard to be fast growing on a percentage basis when the populations goes from 24 to 48 because three orchards just came into production and brought in crew. Likewise sea kayaking had so few adherents 30 years ago that a tenfold increase would be barely noticed. But kayaking still requires some expenditure of effort and at least a little cash even if you rent. You'd be surprised how many people think that *any* expenditure of effort - especially if it's accompanied by an expenditure of cash - is anathema. There may be a lot more paddlers in the Broken Group but I'm guessing there aren't that many more at Hot Springs Cove. > I'll put my money where my mouth is for the third side of the coin. Here > is the liturgy of my paddling experiences on the Lower Columbia: > http://www.kayaktrips.net/sea-kayak/cat_dave_kruger.html > > Go for it. Paddle your selves silly! You still won't see me, I bet! Well not likely. You'll be in your mutha-ship anchored in a cove with no place suitable for a campsite within 5 miles. And I'm likely to be in a similar spot myself. Using a boat as a base immediately opens up a lot of paddling areas not covered by kayaking guidebooks. Of course, they *are* covered by the cruising guidebooks. <grin> > > PS: Don't forget the frappachino, Craig! [sly grin] No chance of that. :) Craig *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > What Gordin, you one of those Chris Duff-like paddkers? How did that > go...paddle out, turn right, and keep the coast to your right the whole > way? :-) > > Yeah, guide books are hardly essential though. Gotta give Kermantis credit > for marketing stratagem. No I'm no Chris Duff. Often I turn left (see below). And I'm not anti guide book. One look at my library and you'd see countless guide books from Rocky Mountain trails, Hawaiian Island snorkel sites, Vancouver Island foot paths, hiking trails of Vancouver Island, cycling routes of BC, Alberta, Washington, Ontario, to paddle routes along the Welsh Coast and on and on. Like Craig Jungers I love guide books and I think he has a good perspective on them. His is certainly a lot better then the woman who wormed her way onto a trip I put together in the Deer Group off of Bamfield a few years ago. She had a copy of Mary Ann Snowdon's guide book and was essentially trophy hunting. She had to bag every campsite that was mentioned in the book. Two of these sites were miles apart and for her she had to sprint from one perfectly beautiful camp site to the next one just to ensure we got there and could claim it ahead of all the other kayakers in the area. I'm more of a base camp and explore up and down the coast sort of guy. That's one of the reasons I seldom paddle the multi day point A to point B trip. I remember this woman got miffed when I insisted we go down, "the left side," of an island as it was more interesting. She slagged me cause I did not have a chart on my foredeck. Something about not knowing what I was talking about. Having explored the area the year before I left it rolled up and tucked away under the foredeck. We took the left route. The last day we came back the more direct route she had wanted to paddle. People thanked me for insisting on the out bound route, they liked the caves, arches, surge channels and rock cuts we paddled through as opposed to the featureless return trip. Sometimes it's the journey and not the destination that is more remarkable. The experience sort of soured me on the guide book as bible and the evangelical devotion to the book of words thing. You are one hundred per cent right regarding his marketing strategies. Look for big things from him in the future. Gordin Warner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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