I posted on WCP about this and have had some interesting responses. First... I think it's important to note that almost every paddler who uses a spray deck has inadvertently folded the toggle/loop under the deck but there has not been much focus on this potentially deadly problem. One paddler puts his drytop over his spray deck tunnel which would make the "hand down the tunnel" release technique virtually impossible to do in time; especially when you add in the fact that his PFD goes then goes over both of them. An alternative technque is to pinch down at the side of the kayak cockpit where the tension of the spray deck and cockpit curvature is at a minimum. I have not tried this method but at least one other paddler says that this is the way he always removes his spray deck so that he'd do it automatically if he needed to. One suggestion was to have spray deck manufacturers sew in a release handle at the side attached at the rand (the "bungee" area of your spray deck) and attached again at some point inboard. This would provide a release point that could not be folded under. The next time you paddle pretend that you can't release your spray deck in the usual way and try some alternatives. You need not be in the water (or upside down) to do this; in fact it's probably much better not to be but you do need to be dressed for paddling as you would usually be. See how long it takes you to get out. Then let us know what worked and what didn't. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Yes, I'm one of those who has inadvertantly tucked his grab loop underneath the spray skirt. There is also another related potential problem. If your grab loop is stitched on, the thread holding it in place can unravel. This did in fact happen to me on a trip. I had to do some reinforced stitching with heavy nylon thread and a very large needle. So it is worth while to periodically inspect and make sure your grab loop is securely attached to the spray skirt. BRC Craig (the one from Moses Lake) wrote: >I posted on WCP about this and have had some interesting responses. > > First... I think it's important to note that almost every paddler who uses > a > spray deck has inadvertently folded the toggle/loop under the deck but > there > has not been much focus on this potentially deadly problem. > > One paddler puts his drytop over his spray deck tunnel which would make > the > "hand down the tunnel" release technique virtually impossible to do in > time; > especially when you add in the fact that his PFD goes then goes over both > of > them. > > An alternative technque is to pinch down at the side of the kayak cockpit > where the tension of the spray deck and cockpit curvature is at a minimum. > I > have not tried this method but at least one other paddler says that this > is > the way he always removes his spray deck so that he'd do it automatically > if > he needed to. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Knife, if all else fails. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig said: > One suggestion was to have spray deck manufacturers sew in a release > handle > at the side attached at the rand (the "bungee" area of your spray deck) > and > attached again at some point inboard. This would provide a release > point > that could not be folded under. At least one manufacturer does something similar already. My newest Snapdragon neoprene skirt came with a "panic strap" which is sewn across the deck from one side to the other. By grabbing the strap and just pulling up, the skirt will come off and I use a very tight fitting skirt. Works equally well on my glass Foster Shadow or my plastic Capella. Steve Holtzman __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3239 (20080703) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 9:01 AM, Steve Holtzman <sh_at_actglobal.net> wrote: > > > At least one manufacturer does something similar already. My newest > Snapdragon neoprene skirt came with a "panic strap" which is sewn across > the > deck from one side to the other. By grabbing the strap and just pulling up, > the skirt will come off and I use a very tight fitting skirt. Works equally > well on my glass Foster Shadow or my plastic Capella. > That's interesting... I just spent a few minutes on Snapdragon's web pages and couldn't find any mention of a "panic strap" or see anything like that in the photos. What model skirt do you have? Craig *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig said: > That's interesting... I just spent a few minutes on Snapdragon's web > pages > and couldn't find any mention of a "panic strap" or see anything like > that > in the photos. What model skirt do you have? I have the Glacier Exp Breathable Reinforced. I wanted to get something that wasn't quite as hot for the summer. I was surprised when it came with the panic strap. At first I was going to cut it off, but decided to try it out, and as a result, I decided to leave it on. Works great. Steve Holtzman __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3239 (20080703) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<snip> > > The next time you paddle pretend that you can't release your spray > deck in > the usual way and try some alternatives. You need not be in the > water (or > upside down) to do this; in fact it's probably much better not to be > but you > do need to be dressed for paddling as you would usually be. See how > long it > takes you to get out. > > Then let us know what worked and what didn't. > > > Craig Jungers > Moses Lake, WA I had a friend who came up with the idea of attaching a fairly large (and heavy) carabiner to his sprayskirt grab loop. His rationale was threefold: the carabiner was hard to miss if you inadvertently left it and the grab loop tucked inside the cockpit; the 'biner would fall down in the event of an upset and thus be free of the other lines -- like paddle leashes -- that might make it difficult to find; and one was unlikely to confuse the 'biner with anything else if one started to panic and grab at whatever came to hand. While it *seemed* like a good idea, I must admit that I have not tried it myself, so I can't offer any personal observations on the system. -- Darryl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Darryl wrote: > I had a friend who came up with the idea of attaching a fairly large > (and heavy) carabiner to his sprayskirt grab loop. <snip> > While it *seemed* like a good idea, I must admit that I have not > tried it myself, so I can't offer any personal observations on the > system. If you're the sort of person who has trained himself to go into a tuck upon capsize, that large and heavy chunk of metal might be a hazard. The rest of his rationale seems reasonable, but only with a locking 'biner. A non-locking gate could get caught on something and cause an entrapment itself. Steve -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Many sensible river outfitters ban non locking carabiners, with the exception of cow tails on PFDs,?on their trips for good reason. It is very easy to catch yourself with them on perimeter lines, webbing and cargo nets. The idea of scrambling over someone's deck doing a T rescue with a non locking biner sounds like another hazard unintentionally put into place to allay the fears of another hazard. Cheers, Rob G >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you're the sort of person who has trained himself to go into a tuck upon capsize, that large and heavy chunk of metal might be a hazard. The rest of his rationale seems reasonable, but only with a locking 'biner. A non-locking gate could get caught on something and cause an entrapment itself.? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
About the use of which, be Very careful. In Charlie Walbridge's River Safety Reports series of some years ago, there is a description of an attempt to get a WW paddler out of his boat in a pinning situation. Rescuers resorted to cutting the skirt out with a knife. Paddler died a few minutes later from a severed femoral artery. Recommendation back then was to do any cuts Behind the paddler... I've probably misremembered that a little, but that's the gist of it... Joe P. > >Knife, if all else fails. >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Joe P. said: Rescuers resorted to cutting the skirt out with a knife. Paddler died a few minutes later from a severed femoral artery. I've probably misremembered that a little, but that's the gist of it... You got it exactly right, Joe. This happened on the Ocoee River. The poor guy was trapped with his head above water but his companions were in a hurry to get him out and, probably, looked forward to a dramatic use-the-knife rescue. It turned out to be fatal as well as dramatic. "Michael R., an experienced kayaker, was navigating the river when his boat overturned in a rapid on the Ocoee River. Friends told that he lost his paddle and was unable to flip his boat upright. Once up righted, the friends could not remove his Spray Skirt, so they cut it. When they did, they also cut a main artery in his leg." Copyright 1997 The Associated Press, Monday, November 3, 1997" Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig, In my research for my SK magazine article on entrapment, I came across a number on incidents where the issue of sprayskirt malfunction was the causative factor of the entrapment - whether that entrapment was a mere inconvenience, cause for considerable panic, or possibly extinguishment of life (hard to prove). The issue is serious enough that it warranted inclusion in a recognized magazine; serious enough that it is infrequently, but nevertheless, discussed in kayak forums; and now I see SK has a mini interview with spray manufacturers in their inline newsletter. And it is in the news again. The recent loss of life under recent discussion may have been due to entrapment by sprayskirt. Remedial action to extricate oneself from any type of skirt entrapment, from the armchair-reader perspective, seems simple enough, but the reality upside-down, no air, panic mode, water up the sinuses is more perturbing and difficult to deal with if a paddler has actually been through it - certainly the folks I interviewed. I like your idea of purposely trying to release your skirt without benefit of the main method you would normally use (I think you promoted that). I even practice my redundant release methods with both hands alternatively. This is my summer-holidays-at-the-lake activity once a year - minimum. There are a number of other things I practice too at the lake, when I'm relaxed and have time to reacquaint myself with possible equipment issues that I want to proactively develop some anti-panic brain processes and muscle memory for. I have not been involved with germane coaching schemes, so I don't know what the current CRCA/ACA/BCU, et al official syllabus includes on this skirt release issue. I do know that coaches I've talked to say they do not like to overcoach the issue. I consider it a basic, important fundamental skill: the timely release of your skirt, the knowledge and practice to perform a redundant removal procedure or two, is to my way of thinking, just plain smart. I'd caution any paddler trying a new skirt/new boat combo - or any combination of skirt and boat previously not tried, to go and practice in a safe place (pool, lake, someone handy, etc. No. There are not a lot of deaths or even close calls with this kind of entrapment. But it can and does happen. What's a few minutes to practice a bit before hand so you are at least somewhat prepared? As for methods to release the skirt, there are only so many, with those few dependent on the exact combination of equipment, flexibility and strength of the paddler, their ability to think under pressure, etc. Often, it is other skills that can reduce the chances of a rare incident like a broken skirt release at an inopportune time from causing a fatality. The ability to dog-paddle up to get more air comes to mind. The inclusion of a Roll-Aid for those device-oriented might be an option (and the ability to use one under pressure), the ability to summon the paddlefloat for a roll back up or having a spare paddle conveniently accessible on your front or perhaps rear deck (and the ability to retrieve it, assuming in these examples you have maybe lost your main one in the surf, say, went to bail out and the skirt will not release). The permutations are endless. In the final analysis, leaving your release loop under the cockpit is an act of complete stupidity, as is failure to maintain your equipment. Yet, you don't have to be stupid to make stupid mistakes, right? But it is stupid not to think through these possibilities and come up with a backup plan. And it is stupid to not try out new equipment somewhere safe first. Heck, how many extreme sport races have there been where for the paddling segment the athlete jumps in a kayak they have never paddled before, doesn't set the foot rest properly, and takes off to open sea? My goodness people. I do a lot of extreme stuff with my yakking, but I know my equipment, practice redundancies, and for the most part, try to have a backup plan - with avoidance in the first place always being the best mitigator or eliminator of serious incident. I'm stating the obvious, aren't I? My point exactly. The pinch method works best for me. Cutting my skirt? I don't think I'd go for a full perimeter cut-out. A quick slit should be enough. But if I can take the time to orient my knife, surely I'd have time for other backup methods. I'll save my knife for fishing line entrapments and fending/repelling board surfers. And I don't want to cut an expensive skirt - my wife wouldn't let me buy a new one. She must really want that insurance money before I turn 65.:-) Doug Lloyd >I posted on WCP about this and have had some interesting responses. > > First... I think it's important to note that almost every paddler who uses > a > spray deck has inadvertently folded the toggle/loop under the deck but > there > has not been much focus on this potentially deadly problem. > > One paddler puts his drytop over his spray deck tunnel which would make > the > "hand down the tunnel" release technique virtually impossible to do in > time; > especially when you add in the fact that his PFD goes then goes over both > of > them. > > An alternative technque is to pinch down at the side of the kayak cockpit > where the tension of the spray deck and cockpit curvature is at a minimum. > I > have not tried this method but at least one other paddler says that this > is > the way he always removes his spray deck so that he'd do it automatically > if > he needed to. > > One suggestion was to have spray deck manufacturers sew in a release > handle > at the side attached at the rand (the "bungee" area of your spray deck) > and > attached again at some point inboard. This would provide a release point > that could not be folded under. > > The next time you paddle pretend that you can't release your spray deck in > the usual way and try some alternatives. You need not be in the water (or > upside down) to do this; in fact it's probably much better not to be but > you > do need to be dressed for paddling as you would usually be. See how long > it > takes you to get out. > > Then let us know what worked and what didn't. > > > Craig Jungers > Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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