In the past couple months the coast guard has had three false searches due to the SPOT (Personal satellite tracker) system. In each case it has a combination of the limitations of the SPOT unit and human anxiety. What has happen in each case is that for whatever reason the SPOT unit has failed to send out a signal. (my guess is the operator did not leave the unit on long enough top pick up a satellite or was in a steep fjord) This resulted in someone down south not getting the "we are OK" email and they panicked and called the coast guard. Each of the three parties searched for were found to be OK and doing fine unaware they were missing. The coast guard is not happy about this and I fear may be reluctant to search based on the SPOT system. So the word to the wise is chose you SPOT contacts carefully and tell them to remember what the cover of the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy says. "Don't Panic" Stay found! Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bob Carter wrote: > In the past couple months the coast guard has had three false searches > due to the SPOT (Personal satellite tracker) system. In each case it has > a combination of the limitations of the SPOT unit and human anxiety. > [snip] Each of the three parties searched for were found to be OK and > doing fine unaware they were missing. The coast guard is not happy about > this and I fear may be reluctant to search based on the SPOT system. This is not good news. The failure of a few makes a potentially very vital link possibly useless. Anybody know if the SPOT folks are on this problem? -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Bob Carter wrote: > > In the past couple months the coast guard has had three false > searches > > due to the SPOT (Personal satellite tracker) system. In each case > it has > > a combination of the limitations of the SPOT unit and human > anxiety. > > [snip] Each of the three parties searched for were found to be OK > and > > doing fine unaware they were missing. The coast guard is not happy > about > > this and I fear may be reluctant to search based on the SPOT > system. > > This is not good news. The failure of a few makes a potentially > very vital > link possibly useless. > > Anybody know if the SPOT folks are on this problem? > > -- > Dave Kruger > Astoria, OR I'm not sure I can think of anything that the SPOT people can do. The unit may not be able to get a signal for any number of reasons, including being broken. How does one inform the contact people to expect no further messages from the SPOT unit unless there is cell coverage in the area, so they do not call the calvary unnecessarily? One could travel with multiple SPOT units, but who can afford that? And, rare though it might be, multiple units can be lost, damaged or just fail on their own, leaving us back on square one. Personally, I find the lack of any confirmation attached to any of the messages sent to be somewhat disquieting. I much prefer a VHF radio, or a satellite radio, where I can relay more than "I'm fine" or "I'm not fine" and I can tell pretty much right away if there's anyone receiving them. -- Darryl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 12:43 PM, Darryl <Darryl.Johnson_at_sympatico.ca> wrote: > I much prefer a VHF > radio, or a satellite radio, where I can relay more than "I'm fine" > or "I'm not fine" and I can tell pretty much right away if there's > anyone receiving them. When we were cruising our 32' cutter, *Kibitka*, around the eastern N. Pacific we encouraged a lot of yachties to get amateur radio licenses. Ham radio is remarkably versatile with voice, morse code, and digital modes as well as satellites in orbit (AMSAT) and the hams themselves are eager to help relay message; all without any pay. Low power transceivers are available which can stow easily into a kayak along with associated wire antennas and automatic antenna tuners. There are kits, partial kits, plans, used equipment and new gear all easily found on the Internet. The licenses themselves are easier than ever before to get now that morse code has been all but eliminated in most countries. Morse code is the most efficient of all the digital modes and equipment which is capable of only transmitting morse is about as simple as you can get; so getting the license may not require code, but a smart expedition paddler would certainly acquire the skill. If I were planning an expedition of any sort which put me out of communications for more than a day or two I certainly would take a ham radio system along and, if necessary, learn to use it myself. Craig Jungers, K7EXJ Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> unit may not be able to get a signal for any number of reasons, > including being broken. How does one inform the contact people to > expect no further messages from the SPOT unit unless there is cell > coverage in the area, so they do not call the calvary unnecessarily? Rather than informing the contact people to expect no further messages, wouldn't it be easier to tell them this on the Day One, calling from the destination airport - expect no further messages until such and such date, give or take 2 days? I already said this on another forum, - most trips do not justify sending OK messages every day or every 48 hours. There are VHF and PLB to deal with emergencies - they are not perfect, but they exclude confusion caused by third parties involved (often emotional or not thinking straight). If you are pinned down somewhere and experiencing food and water shortage, then (coorect me if I'm wrong, 'cause I'm not absoultely sure there) - this is an emergency and warrants using a PLB or "emergency" button of SPOT (have never seen one, but I understand there is such a button). > Personally, I find the lack of any confirmation attached to any of > the messages sent to be somewhat disquieting. I much prefer a VHF > radio, or a satellite radio, where I can relay more than "I'm fine" > or "I'm not fine" and I can tell pretty much right away if there's > anyone receiving them. This is what bugs me in PLB too - no confirmation. But at least, PLB is sending distress signal with GPS coordinates continuously, so if works at all and you are not in some cave, it will reach satellite at some moment. VHF gives you a confirmation, but they are very short-range - few miles at sea level, and satellite phone will not work where SPOT or PLB doesn't - in steep north-facing canyon for example (in Northern hemisphere). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Rather than informing the contact people to expect no further messages, > wouldn't it be easier to tell them this on the Day One, calling from the > destination airport - expect no further messages until such and such date, > give or take 2 days? Alex I plan to use my SPOT in the following fashion. I plan to each evening transmit an " I am OK message" My wife and son will hopefully receive the emails. They both know the problems with the SPOT system and realize that "no news is not necessarily bad news". I want to use it for this trip because weather may change my route and return time. I have Plan A, Plan B and Plan C not to mention a willingness to create Plan D if necessary. Hopefully SPOT will let Gladys and Martin know if my route changes. I am currently following a group circumnavigating Baranof Island. From what I can tell their SPOT is working. I warned them ahead of time to make sure the give their SPOT unit plenty of time to pick up the satellite. I thought about listing Paddlewise as one of my email recepitants. However I was concerned that if the unit failed it would cause unnecceary worry among friends when there was no need for concern. Thoughts? Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bob Carter wrote: > I plan to use my SPOT in the following fashion. I plan to each evening > transmit an " I am OK message" My wife and son will hopefully receive > the emails. They both know the problems with the SPOT system and realize > that "no news is not necessarily bad news". I want to use it for this > trip because weather may change my route and return time. I have Plan A, > Plan B and Plan C not to mention a willingness to create Plan D if > necessary. Hopefully SPOT will let Gladys and Martin know if my route > changes. Rev, The expectation that a minder will receive information from a paddler out somewhere puts them in a special bind. Here is how I know that. You might think about how your wife and son will operate if something like this happens: I've been the guardian of a couple of different paddlers, on different multiday outings, who told me, in essence: "... call the Coast Guard if we do not get in touch with you by the evening of Day X ... because that means we are lost or delayed." In one case, a solo paddler did not call on the agreed-upon night. So, I scurried about, nailing down the number to call in Canada, and alerted the appropriate CCG SAR center on Vancouver Island. Basically, they said, "we will check to see if her vehicle is at the takeout in the morning; if it is there, then we will take more particulars from you at that time to initiate a search." The woman had a cell with her that was known to work, __sketchily__, at the takeout location. My evening progressed nervously. At midnight I sent her cell a voicemail asking her to check in. She did not check in that night. I did not get much sleep. Very early the next morning, she called me on the cell and said she was OK, and in a city about 80 miles (normally about 3 hours of driving) from the takeout, in her van, and could not call the previous evening because she got lost on logging roads on Vancouver Island (easy to do, especially for her [grin]). She did not call as soon as she got to a place where her cell worked because she "... did not want to wake me up." (Me: !!!%$#^&) I called the SAR center and let them know she was OK, and ranted and raved in the living room for about 10 minutes; only a little paint on the walls got blistered.. I had never had to deal with this before; I was very surprised how disturbing it was. I felt pretty darn powerless down here, unable to go do something for my buddy, overnight, because with the cold water she was on, if she were swamped, in trouble, the "wait until morning" approach was probably going to be too late. Mind, it is a very reasonable policy for any SAR group to take, in a situation like that. I wish I had had a stronger heart-to-heart with her before I took on the responsibility, and had impressed on her the importance of checking in as soon as she could. She was oblivious to my mental state. If I take that responsibility on again, I will definitely nail down a couple alternate methods of contacting me, and make darn sure the paddler(s) know I want to be contacted ASAP! In your case, you can probably do that (or already have) for your wife and son. Plus, you have a stellar track record as a solo paddler, as well as a big friend upstairs. Enjoy the trip. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> The expectation that a minder will receive information from a paddler out > somewhere puts them in a special bind. .... >> >> > In your case, you can probably do that (or already have) for your wife and > son. Plus, you have a stellar track record as a solo paddler, as well as > a big friend upstairs. > My wife and I have had several talks on this i.e. what to do when. Also I am a member of the local SAR unit and I have talked with our Captain about what to do when. Hopefully I have all the bases covered. Also if I see I am going to be delayed I can contact a fishing boat to relay a message to my wife. enjoy the sea Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> My wife and I have had several talks on this i.e. what to do when. Also I > am > a member of the local SAR unit and I have talked with our Captain about > what to do when. Hopefully I have all the bases covered. > Also if I see I am going to be delayed I can contact a fishing boat to > relay a message to my wife. > enjoy the sea > Bob Bob, I'm envious of you - as usual. I'll make it up there one day. Hey, if you do get into a spot of trouble, what kind of response times are you looking at anyway? Doesn't matter if the CG are contacted directly or by a third party, you are probably on your own for a while. And does it significantly matter if you can't get help if you do get in trouble and want help? I mean, isn't that part of the deal - being self reliant and not necessarily having full expectations for help-at-hand, eventually? Aren't we all prepared enough to the point of reasonableness already - and prepared to still go on our trips even without these devices - save for a float plan left with a reliable contact? It gas been done that way for years. Yes, the ability to summon help in a timely fashion is characteristically, a worthwhile goal, but nothing is guaranteed. Except death and taxes. And being able to use one's taxes via the authorities launching an expensive search to hopefully prevent a paddler's death, while part of the deal and expectation in our society currently, does mean false alarm thresholds of frustration will probably mount if SPOT false alarms continue unabatted. The SPOT device is a promising alternative (see the review in SK Mag's latest August issue) to PLB's with GPS, but only time will tell the ultimate value and usefullness in extremis where there exists a public mindset demanding that every answer - every solution - be avaliable, at the push of a button. The answer is still in somewhere in the push - and pull - of the paddle. Never less in the colds waters of Alaska. May the winds be at your back Bob. Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > The SPOT device is a promising alternative (see the review in SK Mag's > latest August issue) to PLB's with GPS, but only time will tell the > ultimate value and usefullness in extremis where there exists a public > mindset demanding that every answer - every solution - be avaliable, > at the push of a button. The answer is still in somewhere in the push > - and pull - of the paddle. Never less in the colds waters of Alaska. Oh, I dunno.... right now I'm "watching" Bob participate in an all-night adventure race at Lake Meade. I haven't talked to him since about 10:00 this morning when he was driving up there but right now I can see that he's been in the water (or maybe it's mud since it's Lake Meade) for about three hours (kayaking?... swimming?... slogging?), hiked up an elevated area (I'm looking at the satellite image and I can't tell if it's a hill or a mountain), sigzagged back and fourth across the top (did you forget to sign in at the check-in point, Bob?), and now headed south over some rough terrain... in the dark in the desert. I have no idea where the finish is ('Finish' is not noted on the satellite image) and if SPOT stops transmitting (which does happen), I'll go back to sanding the ceiling in the kitchen. I couldn't be there but I'm actually getting a better view via the continually updated images :-) There are some fun aspects to it. A couple of centuries ago, families sat at home waiting for letters that might arrive before the traveler returned home which described their adventures. Now we see it live (sort of). Bob set up a tracker while we cruised Alaska and you can actually go to the website which displays the route and either post an image or look at other images posted by travelers to the area and read information specific to that area (which is really cool when you want to know more about a glacier and why it was named after Dr. So&So or why any particular town is located where it is when it has no roads coming or going). It's kind of fun. Or maybe that was some other tracking tech-mabob he's got. I can't keep up with all his tech toys. Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 11:43 AM, Bob Carter <revkayak_at_aptalaska.net> wrote: > In the past couple months the coast guard has had three false searches due > to > the SPOT (Personal satellite tracker) system....... T<snip>.....The coast > guard is not happy about this and fear may be reluctant to search based on > the SPOT system. > This story illustrates how the public looks at emergency services; they expect things to be fixed immediately. The main problem is not with the sort of people who read Paddlewise or WCP or even, probably, the paddling magazines. They are the parents, friends, co-workers, etc. who would not likely understand the way SPOT works or the way a kayak trip (or mountaineering trip or fishing trip or virtually any expedition of any sort) plays out. Their education on these matters comes almost exclusively from dramatic depictions of sports on television. With SPOT coming into use by day hikers, weekend backpackers, cruising sailors, even people taking a trip by car ("you never know what can happen") both those who carry SPOT and those who might expect notifications of being ok would probably be people unfamiliar with emergencies of any sort much less SAR operations. This has the potential to seriously degrade the usefulness of SPOT. As the SPOT people market their device to more and more people via standard sales outlets (is Wal-Mart far behind REI?) we can expect a lot more false alarms caused by misunderstandings of how SPOT works both by the people carrying them and those receiving the notices. Marketing the device to the widest possible audience is probably the only way the company can turn a profit (satellites are not cheap). It's also the most likely way that the device will be devalued over time. At some point in the near future you can expect that SAR operations undertaken on the basis of a lack of SPOT information will not happen unless there is some other evidence of a problem independent of SPOT. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jackie (hi!): Yeah, it's all good. The benefits derived from this device are fantastic. Heck, my penny-pinching, no-more-toys-for-Douglas wife might even agree I should get one of theses SPOT devices (actually, my best buddy rents his out). It was strictly the false alarm issue under discussion - the cry wolf atmosphere that may pollute the good air. Okay, back to finishing my kitchen (off for two more weeks from work to do so - wish I was paddling). Cheers Doug L > Doug Lloyd wrote: > >> The SPOT device is a promising alternative (see the review in SK Mag's >> latest August issue) to PLB's with GPS, but only time will tell the >> ultimate value and usefullness in extremis where there exists a public >> mindset demanding that every answer - every solution - be avaliable, at >> the push of a button. The answer is still in somewhere in the push - and >> pull - of the paddle. Never less in the colds waters of Alaska. > > > > Oh, I dunno.... right now I'm "watching" Bob participate in an all-night > adventure race at Lake Meade. I haven't talked to him since about 10:00 > this morning when he was driving up there but right now I can see that > he's been in the water (or maybe it's mud since it's Lake Meade) for about > three hours (kayaking?... swimming?... slogging?), hiked up an elevated > area (I'm looking at the satellite image and I can't tell if it's a hill > or a mountain), sigzagged back and fourth across the top (did you forget > to sign in at the check-in point, Bob?), and now headed south over some > rough terrain... in the dark in the desert. I have no idea where the > finish is ('Finish' is not noted on the satellite image) and if SPOT stops > transmitting (which does happen), I'll go back to sanding the ceiling in > the kitchen. > > I couldn't be there but I'm actually getting a better view via the > continually updated images :-) There are some fun aspects to it. > > A couple of centuries ago, families sat at home waiting for letters that > might arrive before the traveler returned home which described their > adventures. Now we see it live (sort of). > > Bob set up a tracker while we cruised Alaska and you can actually go to > the website which displays the route and either post an image or look at > other images posted by travelers to the area and read information specific > to that area (which is really cool when you want to know more about a > glacier and why it was named after Dr. So&So or why any particular town is > located where it is when it has no roads coming or going). It's kind of > fun. Or maybe that was some other tracking tech-mabob he's got. I can't > keep up with all his tech toys. > > Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > Jackie (hi!): > > Yeah, it's all good. The benefits derived from this device are > fantastic. Heck, my penny-pinching, no-more-toys-for-Douglas wife > might even agree I should get one of theses SPOT devices (actually, my > best buddy rents his out). Hi Doug! :-) At first, I couldn't see how SPOT would be of any particular use or interest, to tell you the truth. But it was fun to come home and "revisit" some of the places we cruised in Alaska (it provides not only a map of your route, but also date and time and I can align that with the date and time of my photos because frankly, due to the overcast weather, much of the nine days looks the same in photos... mist and trees - and I don't know which mountain range is which). And friends and family seemed to enjoy logging on to see where we were that day, especially those that had already been there. I also enjoyed "watching" Bob compete in his adventure race this weekend. Another use for SPOT is as a navigational tool to find a location you want to revisit or provide location to others where they can also visit... all on a google map. I simply don't see it as an emergency tool. But it could be used as a locating tool or tracking tool. I think it could also be great for kids when on vacation, good for developing a sense of location and using maps. Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Marketing the device to the widest > possible audience is probably the only way the company can turn a profit > (satellites are not cheap). It's also the most likely way that the device > will be devalued over time. > > At some point in the near future you can expect that SAR operations > undertaken on the basis of a lack of SPOT information will not happen unless > there is some other evidence of a problem independent of SPOT. When this happens, i.e. when SAR operations would commence only when problem has been reported by source other than SPOT, this will mark the end of SPOT usefulness and we may as well leave it home :-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
alex wrote: > Craig said: >> At some point in the near future you can expect that SAR operations >> undertaken on the basis of a lack of SPOT information will not happen >> unless there is some other evidence of a problem independent of SPOT. > When this happens, i.e. when SAR operations would commence only when > problem has been reported by source other than SPOT, this will mark the > end of SPOT usefulness and we may as well leave it home :-) Well said, Alex. Unless the SPOT manufacturer/provider fixes the flaw, I think it is mainly useful as a convenient way of tracking someone. Certainly good for that, as Jackie describes, but it is being marketed as a good way to ensure help is summoned if you _fail_ to report in. Just to be clear: the flaw is the apparent lack of a confirmation from the satellite _to_the_user_ that a SPOT transmission has been received and relayed on. Is this a difficult problem to solve? -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 2:24 AM, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: > > > Unless the SPOT manufacturer/provider fixes the flaw, I think it is mainly > useful as a convenient way of tracking someone. Certainly good for that, as > Jackie describes, but it is being marketed as a good way to ensure help is > summoned if you _fail_ to report in. I just spent some time looking over the SPOT webpage (www.findmespot.com) and I can't see that this is the way SPOT is marketed. That is, the manufacturer is not saying that if you don't receive a SPOT checkin then you should call for help. I think that this is a conclusion that the users, themselves, are jumping to. SPOT offers four modes: 1. Track my progress. Every so often SPOT automatically sends an email to the account the user selects saying that the user is ok and giving a position in lat/lon. This function must be re-initiated every 24 hours!!! And it costs extra. I imagine it could get annoying, too. Imagine getting one every ten minutes or so. Ack! 2. Check in. An email is sent to the user's account each time he/she presses the "OK" button. This is an unlimited service that comes with the yearly account the user signs up for. 3. Call for help. This is not an emergency function. It's for problems like running out of gas or getting a flat tire. Once activated the SPOT device acquires its position and sends an SMS message to your contacts for an hour unless cancelled. 4. Emergency. This is the 911 emergency function. Once the call for help function is activated the SPOT device will send acquire a position in lat/lon and send that to the "GEOS emergency response center" every five minutes unless cancelled.. The personnel there will then forward the information to the appropriate SAR organizations. Nothing in the marketing verbage suggests that a user's contacts should panic if they *don't* receive an "I'm OK" email. > > Just to be clear: the flaw is the apparent lack of a confirmation from the > satellite _to_the_user_ that a SPOT transmission has been received and > relayed on. Yup. Exactly. This is a user education problem. But it's a problem that might actually reduce the effectiveness of the SPOT unit if SAR organizations act on reports from the contacts that they "haven't heard from Billy for two days". > > Is this a difficult problem to solve? > Oh ya... this is very difficult to solve. Because the people calling the USCG aren't in the "GEOS emergency response center"; it's Aunt Millicent and Uncle Henry and all they know is the Billy may not have explained all the functions of the device well; all he told them that he'd be sending them a message every day. The message says, "Billy's OK" and the implicit information Aunt Millicent gets from this is that if Billy does not send a message saying he's "ok" then he's NOT "ok". Because she loves Billy and worries about him all the time. She's seen on TV what can happen to kayakers out there in the wild and she knows he's in constant danger. It's been two days. There is no time to waste!!! Maybe the "Billy is OK" email should include a rider that says: "You only get this email if I remember to press the button on the SPOT unit and its batteries are charged and it can see the satellite. Don't worry if you don't get one." Even that will probably not completely fix the problem because some Aunties just cannot help themselves. :) Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I won't buy a SPOT unit because I'm too cheap to pay the annual service fee. But I think Rev Bob has the right idea, namely having Plans A, B, C, etc. and having multiple avenues for help. I wouldn't want to depend solely on SPOT, even if I had one. I liked the format of Roy Messina's expedition around Vancouver Island, which involved several well-trained paddlers, and darned near every means of communication available, except Craig's famous ham radio set. Brad Quoting Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com>: > On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 2:24 AM, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: > >> >> >> Unless the SPOT manufacturer/provider fixes the flaw, I think it is mainly >> useful as a convenient way of tracking someone. Certainly good for that, as >> Jackie describes, but it is being marketed as a good way to ensure help is >> summoned if you _fail_ to report in. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Well said! It boils down to RTFM. Steve Holtzman Tadpussac, Quebec for a week. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Craig Jungers" <crjungers_at_gmail.com> Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:04:13 To: Dave Kruger<kdruger_at_pacifier.com> Cc: Paddlewise<PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] SPOT anxiety On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 2:24 AM, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: > > > Unless the SPOT manufacturer/provider fixes the flaw, I think it is mainly > useful as a convenient way of tracking someone. Certainly good for that, as > Jackie describes, but it is being marketed as a good way to ensure help is > summoned if you _fail_ to report in. I just spent some time looking over the SPOT webpage (www.findmespot.com) and I can't see that this is the way SPOT is marketed. That is, the manufacturer is not saying that if you don't receive a SPOT checkin then you should call for help. I think that this is a conclusion that the users, themselves, are jumping to. SPOT offers four modes: 1. Track my progress. Every so often SPOT automatically sends an email to the account the user selects saying that the user is ok and giving a position in lat/lon. This function must be re-initiated every 24 hours!!! And it costs extra. I imagine it could get annoying, too. Imagine getting one every ten minutes or so. Ack! 2. Check in. An email is sent to the user's account each time he/she presses the "OK" button. This is an unlimited service that comes with the yearly account the user signs up for. 3. Call for help. This is not an emergency function. It's for problems like running out of gas or getting a flat tire. Once activated the SPOT device acquires its position and sends an SMS message to your contacts for an hour unless cancelled. 4. Emergency. This is the 911 emergency function. Once the call for help function is activated the SPOT device will send acquire a position in lat/lon and send that to the "GEOS emergency response center" every five minutes unless cancelled.. The personnel there will then forward the information to the appropriate SAR organizations. Nothing in the marketing verbage suggests that a user's contacts should panic if they *don't* receive an "I'm OK" email. > > Just to be clear: the flaw is the apparent lack of a confirmation from the > satellite _to_the_user_ that a SPOT transmission has been received and > relayed on. Yup. Exactly. This is a user education problem. But it's a problem that might actually reduce the effectiveness of the SPOT unit if SAR organizations act on reports from the contacts that they "haven't heard from Billy for two days". > > Is this a difficult problem to solve? > Oh ya... this is very difficult to solve. Because the people calling the USCG aren't in the "GEOS emergency response center"; it's Aunt Millicent and Uncle Henry and all they know is the Billy may not have explained all the functions of the device well; all he told them that he'd be sending them a message every day. The message says, "Billy's OK" and the implicit information Aunt Millicent gets from this is that if Billy does not send a message saying he's "ok" then he's NOT "ok". Because she loves Billy and worries about him all the time. She's seen on TV what can happen to kayakers out there in the wild and she knows he's in constant danger. It's been two days. There is no time to waste!!! Maybe the "Billy is OK" email should include a rider that says: "You only get this email if I remember to press the button on the SPOT unit and its batteries are charged and it can see the satellite. Don't worry if you don't get one." Even that will probably not completely fix the problem because some Aunties just cannot help themselves. :) Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: > alex wrote: > >> When this happens, i.e. when SAR operations would commence only when >> problem has been reported by source other than SPOT, this will mark the >> end of SPOT usefulness and we may as well leave it home :-) > > > Well said, Alex. > > Unless the SPOT manufacturer/provider fixes the flaw, I think it is > mainly useful as a convenient way of tracking someone. Certainly good > for that, as Jackie describes, but it is being marketed as a good way > to ensure help is summoned if you _fail_ to report in. I totally disagree that the SPOT usefulness is limited to SAR. I never had the impression that it's primary purpose or a main purpose was for SAR. Satellite links are not reliable enough nor are internet connections or systems that use the system. Satellites often do not pick up signals in canyons. I'm not sure where this idea came from that SPOT is primarily (or in any way significantly) used for SAR. I have lots of photos of terrific vacation spots, some of locations that I no longer recall where those photos were taken. SPOT can be a terrific tool to use to reference vacation photos or just log the location of places you visited but may not have photographed. Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 1:43 AM, alex <al.m_at_3web.net> wrote: >> Marketing the device to the widest >> possible audience is probably the only way the company can turn a profit >> (satellites are not cheap). It's also the most likely way that the device >> will be devalued over time. >> >> At some point in the near future you can expect that SAR operations >> undertaken on the basis of a lack of SPOT information will not happen > unless >> there is some other evidence of a problem independent of SPOT. > > When this happens, i.e. when SAR operations would commence only when problem > has been reported by source other than SPOT, this will mark the end of SPOT > usefulness and we may as well leave it home :-) The problem is that people are panicking over a lack of an OK message sent from SPOT, and not responding to an actual call for help. There is every reason for the Coast Guard and other SAR operators to be skeptical of a lack of SPOT tracking or OK messages - they absolutely should not respond for that reason alone. There really should be some other information other than a lack of SPOT tracking. I would be surprised if they don't quickly establish a policy like that. However, SPOT can call for help, and THAT is the primary SAR usage for the device - not failure to receive OK or tracking messages. There's little reason to believe that 911 functionality of SPOT will ever be ignored due to false alarms, especially if you're paying GEOS for the search and rescue insurance as well. So no, there won't be an end of SPOT usefulness, and you shouldn't leave it at home. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 7:25 PM, Bob Myers <qajaqbob_at_gmail.com> wrote: > > The problem is that people are panicking over a lack of an OK message > sent from SPOT, and not responding to an actual call for help. There > is every reason for the Coast Guard and other SAR operators to be > skeptical of a lack of SPOT tracking or OK messages - they absolutely > should not respond for that reason alone. There really should be some > other information other than a lack of SPOT tracking. I would be > surprised if they don't quickly establish a policy like that. This is EXACTLY the point! The existing float plan system in which you tell your wife to expect a phone call every night and to call the USCG if she doesn't get one by the next morning is in jeopardy. At that point you will HAVE TO CARRY SPOT or some other "official" distress device or go it alone knowing no one will look for you even if you wife camps on the desk of the OIC in Seattle. God help you if your SPOT stops working or you have the bad judgement to get into trouble where SPOT doesn't see the satellite. Because the policy you wouldn't be surprised to see the USCG implement isn't likely to listen to your wife on the phone saying that you are overdue. > However, SPOT can call for help, and THAT is the primary SAR usage for > the device - not failure to receive OK or tracking messages. There's > little reason to believe that 911 functionality of SPOT will ever be > ignored due to false alarms, especially if you're paying GEOS for the > search and rescue insurance as well. So no, there won't be an end of > SPOT usefulness, and you shouldn't leave it at home. That's not the point. The point is that once the USCG implements the policies to protect them from the panic-strucken SPOT users you will not have access to any other means of telling the USCG there is a problem other than SPOT or one of the new EPIRBs. This is a swell marketing service for SPOT but not so hot for people who might run into trouble north of Orcas Island and not had the foresight to pay up for their SPOT. We know that SPOT will do 911 notifications. But right now there are free alternatives to paying up every month. Alternatives that work. But probably won't in a year or so. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think that's ridiculous. And a somewhat panic-stricken fear in and of itself. You're saying that because the Coast Guard is not going to search on the basis of a lack of SPOT check-ins, it's not going to search on any overdue basis at all? Quit panicking. On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 7:48 PM, Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com> wrote: > On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 7:25 PM, Bob Myers <qajaqbob_at_gmail.com> wrote: >> >> The problem is that people are panicking over a lack of an OK message >> sent from SPOT, and not responding to an actual call for help. There >> is every reason for the Coast Guard and other SAR operators to be >> skeptical of a lack of SPOT tracking or OK messages - they absolutely >> should not respond for that reason alone. There really should be some >> other information other than a lack of SPOT tracking. I would be >> surprised if they don't quickly establish a policy like that. > > This is EXACTLY the point! The existing float plan system in which you tell > your wife to expect a phone call every night and to call the USCG if she > doesn't get one by the next morning is in jeopardy. At that point you will > HAVE TO CARRY SPOT or some other "official" distress device or go it alone > knowing no one will look for you even if you wife camps on the desk of the > OIC in Seattle. God help you if your SPOT stops working or you have the bad > judgement to get into trouble where SPOT doesn't see the satellite. Because > the policy you wouldn't be surprised to see the USCG implement isn't likely > to listen to your wife on the phone saying that you are overdue. > >> >> However, SPOT can call for help, and THAT is the primary SAR usage for >> the device - not failure to receive OK or tracking messages. There's >> little reason to believe that 911 functionality of SPOT will ever be >> ignored due to false alarms, especially if you're paying GEOS for the >> search and rescue insurance as well. So no, there won't be an end of >> SPOT usefulness, and you shouldn't leave it at home. > > That's not the point. The point is that once the USCG implements the > policies to protect them from the panic-strucken SPOT users you will not > have access to any other means of telling the USCG there is a problem other > than SPOT or one of the new EPIRBs. This is a swell marketing service for > SPOT but not so hot for people who might run into trouble north of Orcas > Island and not had the foresight to pay up for their SPOT. > > We know that SPOT will do 911 notifications. But right now there are free > alternatives to paying up every month. Alternatives that work. But probably > won't in a year or so. > > > Craig Jungers > Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 8:01 PM, Bob Myers <qajaqbob_at_gmail.com> wrote: > I think that's ridiculous. And a somewhat panic-stricken fear in and of > itself. > > You're saying that because the Coast Guard is not going to search on > the basis of a lack of SPOT check-ins, it's not going to search on any > overdue basis at all? Quit panicking. > Oh please, Bob... we're just laying out some issues that no one had thought of when SPOT came out on the market. No one is talking about panic except you. But you, yourself, said that you expected the USCG to come out with policies that would require other information than just a lack of SPOT reporting. What other information would you ask them to require? What is the difference between a wife saying she's not had a SPOT "I'm ok" email in two days when he promised faithfully he'd send one and a wife saying she hasn't had a telephone call in two days when he promised faithfully he'd make them? How would you devise a policy that differentiated between the two? The unintended consequences of SPOT being marketed through Wal-Mart could be an overhaul in how the USCG views phone-in overdue reports. If no one discusses this now then we'd have no one to blame if the policies they implement are unsatisfactory. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 9:01 PM, Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com> wrote: > On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 8:01 PM, Bob Myers <qajaqbob_at_gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I think that's ridiculous. And a somewhat panic-stricken fear in and of >> itself. >> >> You're saying that because the Coast Guard is not going to search on >> the basis of a lack of SPOT check-ins, it's not going to search on any >> overdue basis at all? Quit panicking. > > Oh please, Bob... we're just laying out some issues that no one had thought > of when SPOT came out on the market. No one is talking about panic except > you. Oh please yourself. You responded to my comment to Alex about how the device isn't going to be useless with its 911 feature by saying it would force the Coast Guard to ignore any overdue people at all? That's an overblown reaction. That's not going to happen, and I think you even know that if you calm down about it. > That's not the point. The point is that once the USCG implements the policies > to protect them from the panic-strucken SPOT users you will not have access > to any other means of telling the USCG there is a problem other than SPOT > or one of the new EPIRBs. This is a swell marketing service for SPOT but not > so hot for people who might run into trouble north of Orcas Island and not had > the foresight to pay up for their SPOT. > > We know that SPOT will do 911 notifications. But right now there are free > alternatives to paying up every month. Alternatives that work. But probably > won't in a year or so. Even if that's so, which I strongly doubt, why are you so offended at paying $100/year or buying an EPIRB when going into a situation like that? Sorry, but that's really cheap insurance. Take some responsibility for yourself - $100/year is not much money when you consider the cost of search and rescue which someone has to pay for. Properly used, you can use SPOT to let your family know you're ok even when you are delayed, and so they don't have to send out search and rescue when you're late. No, I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who are too cheap to pay up. Sure, there are other reasons SPOT can fail, and I can understand issues there, but your "free alternatives" comment does bug me. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 1:26 PM, Bob Myers <qajaqbob_at_gmail.com> wrote: > > Oh please yourself. You responded to my comment to Alex about how the > device isn't going to be useless with its 911 feature by saying it > would force the Coast Guard to ignore any overdue people at all? > That's an overblown reaction. That's not going to happen, and I think > you even know that if you calm down about it. First of all, someone who disagrees with you is not the same as someone who is personally attacking you. If you could manage to eliminate comments about "calm down", "don't panic", "too cheap", "overblown" and "take responsibility for yourself" then it's likely that your position will be taken with more credibility; certainly by me. Your original post on this thread bordered on insulting by accusing me of "panicking" over this issue. This post is even worse and is the type of response that can easily catapult a discussion into a flame war; something I'm sure no one - especially the moderator - wants. Secondly, my concern is that a for-pay service can threaten a system which has been working pretty well for decades. And Doug's comments about his telephone conversations with SAR in Canada indicate that this concern is not imaginary. SAR agencies are concerned about the increase in people who misunderstand how SPOT works. I am too. Why you think this is an "overblown reaction" is a mystery to me. If SPOT is used by hikers, and climbers as well as paddlers then local police, fire and rescue agencies will have to deal with potential SPOT contactees unnecessarily concerned about their friends and relatives. This is certainly the time to discuss the issue. > Even if that's so, which I strongly doubt, why are you so offended at > paying $100/year or buying an EPIRB when going into a situation like > that? Sorry, but that's really cheap insurance. Take some > responsibility for yourself - $100/year is not much money when you > consider the cost of search and rescue which someone has to pay for. Ignoring for the moment why we would have to pay a private company for what a simple cell phone call can do now, the cost of SAR is exactly why the SAR organizations are having top-level discussions about SPOT. It's not reducing unnecessary searches but, at least according to reports, seems to be actually increasing them. I'm not "offended at paying $100/year" but I am somewhat offended at your insistence that this is a non-issue and that we should cheerfully pay for this "cheap insurance". > Properly used, you can use SPOT to let your family know you're ok even > when you are delayed, and so they don't have to send out search and > rescue when you're late. Yes... well the term "properly used" seems to be part of this problem. But a telephone call, properly used, can do the same thing without a $100 a year charge. > > No, I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who are too cheap to pay > up. Sure, there are other reasons SPOT can fail, and I can understand > issues there, but your "free alternatives" comment does bug me. Whew! That's pretty hefty rhetoric. People who don't buy SPOT and pay their $100 to $150 a year are "too cheap to pay up"? SPOT may be a great fit for some people but not a good fit at all for others. Why should everyone have to pay? The "free alternatives" are, right now, the USCG approved and recommended "float plan" and have worked pretty well for me and many of my friends for 30 years. Any system can fail but none of us have caused unnecessary searches and our families have managed to not panic. If you want to spend $100 a year ($150 for the tracking option with Google Maps) that's fine with me but please don't tell me that I'm not taking responsibility for myself if I don't spring for a commercial service that doesn't do any more than what a technically savvy GPS and Internet user can't already do now and that also has the potential to overload existing SAR organizations. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> The "free alternatives" are, right now, the USCG approved and recommended > "float plan" and have worked pretty well for me and many of my friends for > 30 years. Any system can fail but none of us have caused unnecessary > searches and our families have managed to not panic. Still, I have several friends (not myself) who have been overdue in the wilderness and search and rescue was called out (not by me) when they were late, using the "free alternative". It may not have happened to you or many of your friends, but don't kid yourself that it doesn't happen often. I'll bet you and your friends wouldn't misuse SPOT to send out unnecessary S&R either. There's not enough data yet to compare whether the SPOT system will increase or decrease system load. My personal feeling is that agencies will quickly learn to understand which kind of SPOT "missing data" generated calls they need to respond to and which ones they don't. It's going to be difficult to track the S&R calls that aren't made due to a SPOT OK message, for that matter. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> No, I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who are too cheap to pay >> up. Sure, there are other reasons SPOT can fail, and I can understand >> issues there, but your "free alternatives" comment does bug me. > > Whew! That's pretty hefty rhetoric. People who don't buy SPOT and pay their > $100 to $150 a year are "too cheap to pay up"? SPOT may be a great fit for > some people but not a good fit at all for others. Why should everyone have > to pay? They're too cheap if they don't buy it because they're not willing to spend the money but they still expect people to come find them, wherever they might be, if they go missing. Not only can the user send an OK message, but in case of emergency it gives the location within feet - a major issue for the "search" part of search and rescue. (And let me say that I'm not tied to this product - a PLB or EPIRB has different but similar functionality, without the annual subscription fee.) If they don't feel it's a good fit for them , I don't have a problem with that, but yes, I do think it's irresponsible if there's a device like this available that can help and they don't make use of it because they aren't willing to spend $100/year. (Also, it is $100/year for service, not $100 to $150 - the extra $50 tracking feature is not even relevant here.) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bob Myers wrote: >>> No, I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who are too cheap to >>> pay up. Sure, there are other reasons SPOT can fail, and I can >>> understand issues there, but your "free alternatives" comment does >>> bug me. >> Whew! That's pretty hefty rhetoric. People who don't buy SPOT and pay >> their $100 to $150 a year are "too cheap to pay up"? SPOT may be a >> great fit for some people but not a good fit at all for others. Why >> should everyone have to pay? > > They're too cheap if they don't buy it because they're not willing to > spend the money but they still expect people to come find them, wherever > they might be, if they go missing. Not only can the user send an OK > message, but in case of emergency it gives the location within feet - a > major issue for the "search" part of search and rescue. (And let me say > that I'm not tied to this product - a PLB or EPIRB has different but > similar functionality, without the annual subscription fee.) > > If they don't feel it's a good fit for them , I don't have a problem > with that, but yes, I do think it's irresponsible if there's a device > like this available that can help and they don't make use of it because > they aren't willing to spend $100/year. Bob, I usually ignore the polemics inflamed by this sort of rhetoric, but this one has gone on long enough. What is wrong or broken with what we have now? You have not dealt with that. As to "too cheap," anybody who has invested in a VHF and the various other rescue gear items a conscientious paddler needs might well balk at a new device which does not add significant functionality for those of us who paddle _within_hailing_distance_ of a USCG or CCG VHF receiving antenna. Repeat, _within_hailing_distance_ of a USCG or CCG VHF receiving antenna. It is not reasonable to insist on a "one way" (or two, if you count EPIRBs/PLBs) approach and then to paint paddlers who prefer and have used successfully existing methods (and have spent good money already gearing up for it) as "too cheap." I've initiated one search, and prevented a couple of others through appropriate use of my VHF. I suspect I'm getting good use of my VHF, and it sure was not cheap when I bought it. Nor was the license (mandated in those days). I think most paddlers who contemplate trips to localities which do not have good service to VHF receiving antennas will spring for a SPOT. I know I would, and the fact that I do not need one for what I currently do does not make me "too cheap." That language is a cheap shot on your part. [grin] The point is that for 90% of paddlers, the existing VHF net is plenty serviceable and does a good job. And, I agree, if that net is not going to do the job, SPOT or something similar is a wise choice. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 4:01 PM, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: > Bob Myers wrote: > > Bob, I usually ignore the polemics inflamed by this sort of rhetoric, but > this one has gone on long enough. What is wrong or broken with what we have > now? You have not dealt with that. As to "too cheap," anybody who has > invested in a VHF and the various other rescue gear items a conscientious > paddler needs might well balk at a new device which does not add significant > functionality for those of us who paddle _within_hailing_distance_ of a USCG > or CCG VHF receiving antenna. And I don't have a problem with that. Sounds like you have the situation covered, and I'm absolutely certain that the advent of SPOT and PLBs is not going to mean that the Coast Guard is not going to respond to VHF calls. :-) That part of the system works fine and will continue to do so. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I totally disagree that the SPOT usefulness is limited to SAR. I never > had the impression that it's primary purpose or a main purpose was for > SAR. Satellite links are not reliable enough nor are internet > connections or systems that use the system. Satellites often do not > pick up signals in canyons. I'm not sure where this idea came from that > SPOT is primarily (or in any way significantly) used for SAR. > > I have lots of photos of terrific vacation spots, some of locations that > I no longer recall where those photos were taken. SPOT can be a > terrific tool to use to reference vacation photos or just log the > location of places you visited but may not have photographed. Referencing by waypoints marked with SPOT will not work if there is no clear southern sky view, i.e. where GPS, PLB or sat phone don't (with minor variations depending on how many satellites are serving, say, GPS, but not sat phone and vice versa). Though, I suspect that most communication satellites serve all these devices. GPS provides route with waypoints and dates, overimposed on the map, and everybody carries GPS these days. Without SPOT or without internet connection (often available at marinas) you can't email this route to your friends, but even with SPOT this is an extra subscription charge and not everybody will want to make that much waves in their trips. As I understand Craig explanations, there are 2 SPOT functions that are not available in PLB or GPS and are not intended primarily to trigger SAR: "Help needed" and "I'm OK". I am not sure how exactly the first function can be useful (who and how willl know what non-emergency help is needed - gas, flat tire etc), but may be it is useful. Friends may phone local AAA or police and ask to check such and such section of such and such highway, or hop into their car and check on those who send the message. Second function is useful mostly to keep family from anxiety, but as it's been mentioned, this very funciton or it malfunciton may cause the anxiety and trigger unncecessary SAR. (And the first function - "help needed" may also cause friends and family to panic and call SAR). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Jungers" <crjungers_at_gmail.com> To: "Bob Carter" <revkayak_at_aptalaska.net> Cc: "paddlewise" <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 10:18 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] SPOT anxiety Craig Jungers wrote: > As the SPOT people market their device to more and more people via standard sales > outlets (is Wal-Mart far behind REI?) Noticed SPOT for sale at London Drugs, one of Canada's largest drug store outlets the other day. Gordin Warner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Personally, I'll be saving for a PLB once they get a bit smaller (presently downsizing all my gear and lightening up everywhere I can). I will do so strictly for medical situations, in terms of anticipatory (but hopefully never needed) events such as heart weakness, appendicitis, dislocated joint, dismemberment by bear., etc. As for the SPOT, it can be what ever you want it to be. For most paddlers, it seems to be a way to augment their journalized movements on the water and download said travels to their blog site each trip a la Google map. I'd like to see Victoria Beckham's travels on an advemtrue race blog - Kaviar & Kind, Sama Eyewear, Helmut Lang... Doug Lloyd > Hi Doug! :-) > > At first, I couldn't see how SPOT would be of any particular use or > interest, to tell you the truth. But it was fun to come home and > "revisit" some of the places we cruised in Alaska (it provides not only a > map of your route, but also date and time and I can align that with the > date and time of my photos because frankly, due to the overcast weather, > much of the nine days looks the same in photos... mist and trees - and I > don't know which mountain range is which). And friends and family seemed > to enjoy logging on to see where we were that day, especially those that > had already been there. I also enjoyed "watching" Bob compete in his > adventure race this weekend. Another use for SPOT is as a navigational > tool to find a location you want to revisit or provide location to others > where they can also visit... all on a google map. I simply don't see it > as an emergency tool. But it could be used as a locating tool or tracking > tool. > > I think it could also be great for kids when on vacation, good for > developing a sense of location and using maps. > > > Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
As long as the user and the contacts all understand what is being communicated by SPOT there should be no problem. SPOT should work just fine as a trip diary. The only possible problem is that reports from your email contacts saying that you have not sent an "I'm ok" message for two days will likely be ignored if too many bogus reports are received. Of course, using a Garmin 76CSX (or many other makes and models) will do the same thing if you just download the trip records to your computer and then upload them to the appropriate website. Several of the guys on WCP do this and don't pay a monthly fee for it either. I agree that keeping track of your trips can make the trip even more fun afterwards. SPOT isn't the only way to do this but it is the only method that will summon help if used appropriately. I suspect that USCG will only respond to the SPOT 911 reports from the GEOS response center when they get an emergency signal from a SPOT. This means that you had better keep your SPOT's batteries well charged so that if you do get into an emergency the unit can see a satellite and send the message when you punch the right button. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig, I phoned SPOT customer services this morning; told them I write safety reviews of kayak incidents and had presently recommended their devices after the loss of a BC kayaker on the coast; therefore, wanted to follow up on current feedback on their device. Furthermore, the nature of my call was that this feedback from various sources suggested that the OKAY message doesn't always get through causing unnecessary concern for family members monitoring the user's progress and that they were then alerting the authorities prematurely. This appears to be a growing concern for the Coast Guard and SAR authorities who increasing have to deal with these false alarms. The customer care representative was not aware of the issue, has not heard about any systemic issues arising from the growing popularity of the device with regard to rescue personal being concerned over the above scenario, and he reminded/cautioned users to try and place themselves in a geographically conducive position to ensure the signal gets out. So, that was the answer I got from SPOT. Doug Lloyd > As long as the user and the contacts all understand what is being > communicated by SPOT there should be no problem. SPOT should work just > fine > as a trip diary. The only possible problem is that reports from your email > contacts saying that you have not sent an "I'm ok" message for two days > will > likely be ignored if too many bogus reports are received. > > Of course, using a Garmin 76CSX (or many other makes and models) will do > the > same thing if you just download the trip records to your computer and then > upload them to the appropriate website. Several of the guys on WCP do this > and don't pay a monthly fee for it either. > > I agree that keeping track of your trips can make the trip even more fun > afterwards. SPOT isn't the only way to do this but it is the only method > that will summon help if used appropriately. I suspect that USCG will only > respond to the SPOT 911 reports from the GEOS response center when they > get > an emergency signal from a SPOT. This means that you had better keep your > SPOT's batteries well charged so that if you do get into an emergency the > unit can see a satellite and send the message when you punch the right > button. > > > Craig Jungers > Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 8:46 AM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > > > The customer care representative was not aware of the issue, has not heard > about any systemic issues arising from the growing popularity of the device > with regard to rescue personal being concerned over the above scenario, and > he reminded/cautioned users to try and place themselves in a geographically > conducive position to ensure the signal gets out. > > So, that was the answer I got from SPOT. Issue? What issue would that be? The way I see it is that increased use by the general public (you can buy SPOT at www.walmart.com right now) will spell the end of the "float plan" system where a relative or friend alerts SAR if you don't call in after a specified time. SAR authorities, inundated by telephone calls from unsophisticated contacts, will not initiate a search until the information is either corroborated by another source or unless they get a 911 call from the SPOT "GEOS emergency response center" or some other officially sanctioned source. The result is likely to be that if you want to backstop your trip you will either have to carry SPOT or something similar and pray that your batteries are ok throughout the trip. Be especially careful to get into trouble only in places where SPOT can see the satellites. The old "telephone for help if I don't call you by Thursday" will be greeted by a, "that's nice" response. I wonder if I'm cynical enough to think that this was part of the plan all along. Hmm... yup.... I think I am. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Cynical Craig Jungers wrote: > The way I see it is that increased use by the general public (you can buy > SPOT at www.walmart.com right now) will spell the end of the "float plan" > system where a relative or friend alerts SAR if you don't call in after a > specified time. SAR authorities, inundated by telephone calls from > unsophisticated contacts, will not initiate a search until the information > is either corroborated by another source or unless they get a 911 call from > the SPOT "GEOS emergency response center" or some other officially > sanctioned source. > The result is likely to be that if you want to backstop your trip you will > either have to carry SPOT or something similar and pray that your batteries > are ok throughout the trip. Be especially careful to get into trouble only > in places where SPOT can see the satellites. The old "telephone for help if > I don't call you by Thursday" will be greeted by a, "that's nice" response. > I wonder if I'm cynical enough to think that this was part of the plan all > along. I'm not; I just think no one thought about this very deeply. And, few are now. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig, The unintended consequences was more my concern - and I wasn't saying it's a given long term, but it sure seems like a possibility if there's some frustration being expressed now with a device that's relatively new with projected sales continuing to go high. Hopefully we can keep the discussion friendly. I appreciate Bob's perspective as it comes from a user and someone who tends to think through the technical issues without any subjectivity. Perhaps it does come down to the local rescue authorities in the jurisdiction where the response has to be made. If the authority has good comprehension of how the SPOT devices works and proper information about the circumstances surrounding how and why a call came in, then it is in their ballpark if they want to initiate a search. I did talk to SAR Coordination in Victoria this morning. They are well aware of the "issues." Discussions are currently underway at higher levels as they monitor and evaluate this new technology. Concerns expressed include response time expectations from users hitting the 911 button. The SPOT company must have accurate information for you particular circumstances at the exact time of the help request. It is up to the user to predefine who is to be called - contacts, relatives, or the CG/SAR in Victoria, perhaps. For the matter of the family member who hasn't had a timely okay message phoning in, SAR Victoria will ask for the full circumstances, log into the user account with password if given, and examine the traveled route. It will be up to the duty officer to make a determination; they may put out a marine broadcast on VHF (like they did for the Brooks paddler who disappeared), or they may initiate a search with assets being utilized as normal with a May Day call. Basically, the staff have good spider sense (instincts) and generally call the shots in these situations on a case by case basis in the context of theses fine-honed senses. That's all they can do for now. Policy implementation is under review, they did (the officer I spoke with) indicate there is some "agitation" with the propensity for false alarms and inefficiency of response time. Time spent researching the need to respond more quickly than not is time the resuee might not be able to afford. The officer was obviously concerned over both the 911 and the OKAY features of SPOT, as his answers were all commingled. I was just glad they had the situation on their radar. There were some comments about the company in Houston I'll keep to myself. Obviously discussion is good. Perhaps, Houston, we have a bit of a problem. I don't think the SPOT device works well for offshore situations, but for coastal and land based activities, it is still a promising device. Doug Lloyd > On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 8:01 PM, Bob Myers <qajaqbob_at_gmail.com> wrote: > >> I think that's ridiculous. And a somewhat panic-stricken fear in and of >> itself. >> >> You're saying that because the Coast Guard is not going to search on >> the basis of a lack of SPOT check-ins, it's not going to search on any >> overdue basis at all? Quit panicking. >> > > Oh please, Bob... we're just laying out some issues that no one had > thought > of when SPOT came out on the market. No one is talking about panic except > you. But you, yourself, said that you expected the USCG to come out with > policies that would require other information than just a lack of SPOT > reporting. What other information would you ask them to require? What is > the > difference between a wife saying she's not had a SPOT "I'm ok" email in > two > days when he promised faithfully he'd send one and a wife saying she > hasn't > had a telephone call in two days when he promised faithfully he'd make > them? > How would you devise a policy that differentiated between the two? > > The unintended consequences of SPOT being marketed through Wal-Mart could > be > an overhaul in how the USCG views phone-in overdue reports. If no one > discusses this now then we'd have no one to blame if the policies they > implement are unsatisfactory. > > Craig Jungers > Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 9:01 AM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > Craig, > The unintended consequences was more my concern - and I wasn't saying it's > a given long term, but it sure seems like a possibility if there's some > frustration being expressed now with a device that's relatively new with > projected sales continuing to go high. Yes... the unintended consequences of a policy generated too quickly are what most of us are worried about. > > Perhaps it does come down to the local rescue authorities in the > jurisdiction where the response has to be made. If the authority has good > comprehension of how the SPOT devices works and proper information about the > circumstances surrounding how and why a call came in, then it is in their > ballpark if they want to initiate a search. This is less likely in the case of the US agencies which tend to prefer an agency-wide policy with limited discretion. > > I did talk to SAR Coordination in Victoria this morning. They are well > aware of the "issues." Discussions are currently underway at higher levels > as they monitor and evaluate this new technology.........Policy > implementation is under review, they did (the officer I spoke with) indicate > there is some "agitation" with the propensity for false alarms and > inefficiency of response time. Time spent researching the need to respond > more quickly than not is time the resuee might not be able to afford. The > officer was obviously concerned over both the 911 and the OKAY features of > SPOT, as his answers were all commingled. The 911 functions of SPOT will likely be resolved quickly as the SAR request doesn't come from a user or a user's contact but from their GEOS response center (at least according to their web page). That center is likely to have historical data from the device itself (if only a record of the "I'm OK" emails) and the experience to understand the data. But I think the entire issue revolves around the commingling of the OKAY and the 911 features of SPOT. Whether a lack of OKAY is equal to a 911 is the specific issue that the SAR folks will need to resolve. I'm wondering if any SAR agency will have the staff to deal with this if the device becomes as widely used as many expect. > I was just glad they had the situation on their radar. There were some > comments about the company in Houston I'll keep to myself. LOL... I can only imagine. I wouldn't be surprised if the SAR agencies get together and ask SPOT nicely to change the format of their "I'm OKAY" emails to more explicitly state that a lack of them is not a reason to panic. Or direct them to call the response center rather than SAR. After all, SPOT would be the ogranization that profits from the sale of more units and, presumably, the budget to hire more people in their response center. > > Obviously discussion is good. > > Perhaps, Houston, we have a bit of a problem. > > I don't think the SPOT device works well for offshore situations, but for > coastal and land based activities, it is still a promising device. > I would use SPOT for a voyage. The concept is brilliant and seems perfect to allow family to track a yacht's progress to Hawaii or Tahiti. It's only the overlap between the OKAY and 911 functions that are creating confusion. There must be a way to mitigate this without throwing out the baby (float plans) with the bath water. Nice to hear that the CG in Victoria is aware of all these issues. Thanks for calling them and letting us know. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'd said (snip): I don't think the SPOT device works well for offshore situations, but for coastal and land based activities, it is still a promising device. Craig responded (snip): I would use SPOT for a voyage. The concept is brilliant and seems perfect to allow family to track a yacht's progress to Hawaii or Tahiti. It's only the overlap between the OKAY and 911 functions that are creating confusion. There must be a way to mitigate this without throwing out the baby (float plans) with the bath water. Craig, I was thinking that for offshore, that's a lot of open space to correlate on a Google map. Not sure how big an issue that is or isn't. Doug *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 1:05 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > > I was thinking that for offshore, that's a lot of open space to correlate > on a Google map. Not sure how big an issue that is or isn't. > > Oh... I hadn't thought about that bit. Most sailing yachts make about 100 nm every 24 hours which is probably just far enough apart to discern on a Google map. We used amateur radio extensively on our journeys and got phone patches in to our family which worked well to dispell any anxiety they might have had over our taking their grandchildren off on a sea-going yacht. As far as I know, no one actually plotted our positions or even asked us where we were in lat/lon coordinates... but in the 70s and 80s the idea of lat/lon was still pretty arcane. Now, with everyone having a GPS either on their person, on their bike or in their car, it's a lot more common. So maybe no one would care anyway. Craig *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 1:05 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > > I was thinking that for offshore, that's a lot of open space to correlate on > a Google map. Not sure how big an issue that is or isn't. Doug, the SPOT transmits latitude/longitude. You don't have to correlate positions on a Google map. Position is position. However, for some reason the coverage maps fade out before Hawaii. Not sure why that is for a satellite based device. http://www.findmespot.com/ExploreSPOT/Coverage.aspx *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Bob Myers <qajaqbob_at_gmail.com> wrote: > > > However, for some reason the coverage maps fade out before Hawaii. > Not sure why that is for a satellite based device. > > http://www.findmespot.com/ExploreSPOT/Coverage.aspx > It looks as though they are using geostationary satellites; and only 5 of them with specific directivity on the antennas (or perhaps two receivers with directional antennas on only 3 satellites). At any rate, they don't cover the open ocean at all; or even the southern half of Africa or northern half of Greenland. I wonder if this situation is temporary pending a larger number of customers. Satellites aren't cheap. But the major disadvantage of using geostationary satellites instead of the polar-orbit satellites (which is what GPS and the older Transit use) is a lack of coverage in the high latitudes (far north and far south) which is exactly where expeditions like to go. So the farther north and south you go you will be able to get a position; you just won't be able to tell anyone about it. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 1:34 PM, Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com> wrote: > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Bob Myers <qajaqbob_at_gmail.com> wrote: >> >> However, for some reason the coverage maps fade out before Hawaii. >> Not sure why that is for a satellite based device. >> >> http://www.findmespot.com/ExploreSPOT/Coverage.aspx > > It looks as though they are using geostationary satellites; and only 5 of > them with specific directivity on the antennas (or perhaps two receivers > with directional antennas on only 3 satellites). It does look like that from the coverage map, but it seems odd to me that they would use geostationary satellites rather than low orbit satellites for transmission - geostationary orbit is a LONG way up there to transmit from a little handheld device. I find that hard to believe. Hmm, I think this page explains it (found on a search about SPOT, linked from this page http://www.globalcomsatphone.com/spot/coverage.html): http://www.globalcomsatphone.com/globalstar/info.html Globalstar satellite phone service is delivered thought 48 Low-Earth-Orbiting Satellites providing both voice and data services. The Globalstar LEO constellation is only 700 miles from earth... Globalstar's (Bent-Pipe Technology) allow the call to be first beamed up to the satellite and then retransmitted to a relatively close gateway. The call is then sent through to its call destination through land-line or cellular networks. The Globalstar Gateway carries out all the processing and switching of the calls rather than the satellite itself. This improves the reliability of the call delivery. So I guess they need a "gateway" somewhere nearby to relay the signal from the LEO satellites, and that's why coverage doesn't work in areas where they haven't installed a "gateway" yet, such as southern India, southern Africa, and over parts of the open oceans. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Oh, here's the full explanation about SPOT coverage: http://www.globalcomsatphone.com/spot/spot_globalstar.html This is not like all other personal locator beacons (PLB's) that have the capacity of sending a signal worldwide. SPOT will be using the Globalstar satellite system which limits the coverage area to Globalstar's simplex coverage area. (See below) People are worried about the use of this system due to the degradation of their satellite system. However, there is a difference in the type of data that these satellites are receiving. The Globalstar satellite phones are using the duplex system. This is a separate system than what the SPOT satellite messenger will use. SPOT will use the simplex side of their satellites. The simplex side of this satellite provides service to their simplex transmitters and now to SPOT. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:49 PDT