Speaking of rescues. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/29/us/29rescue.html?_r=1&em Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Lots of search and rescue activity in BC last couple of weeks - some outdoors folks were prepared, other not, and some outeight knowingly in out-of bounds areas. I still think the direct out-of-bounders should be made to pay a fine or something. However, we still need some folks pushing other boundaries once and awhile. McAuley adventure types okay by me. Just be prepared, please. > Speaking of rescues. > > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/29/us/29rescue.html?_r=1&em > > > > Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
James Farrelly wrote: > Speaking of rescues. > > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/29/us/29rescue.html?_r=1&em Reading the article carefully, it sounds like a bad law. The criteria on which a fine is based are vague and so broad I bet a good attorney could beat those fines. Mind, I am not opposed to the concept of fines, but would want them carefully applied. Out of bounds skiers who willfully violate covenants to which they have agreed by buying a lift ticket at a controlled ski area, and who subsequently need a rescue, I could see the rationale for a fine. But, John or Jane hiker who go out on a nice sunny day on an easy, well-marked trail and forget to take a map ... and get lost? That is maybe incompetence. Negligence? I bet there is a big fat road down which a defense attorney could drive his case in that situation. We paddlers are in total limbo on this. There are no codified standards for safe paddling conduct on open waters. Chart? Not required. VHF? Not required. Compass? Ditto. Paddle float? Dry top? Bracing skills? Yadda yadda yadda The list is endless. How would a paddler know what constituted negligent behavior or conduct? Compare our situation to that of power boaters who need a rescue due to their incompetence. None of them are being fined for rescues in Oregon, despite the substantial number who require rescue resources. How about New Hampshire ... the state featured in the article? Bet not. To illustrate how slippery this slope is, what about a family in an SUV who slide off an icy mountain road into a deep ravine, all surviving, but unable to get back up to the road? Do they pay for a haulout? Bet not. Certainly, failure to operate a motor vehicle prudently is negligence ... and is codified in chapter and verse in law. New Hampshire is treading on very thin ice here ... perhaps they will need a bailout? (oops!) I mean rescue!! [grin] -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 1:38 PM, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: > > Reading the article carefully, it sounds like a bad law. The criteria on > which a fine is based are vague and so broad I bet a good attorney could > beat those fines. I agree. The only way they could make this stick is to have a (prominent) sign at the trailhead specifically requiring that hikers stay on the marked trails or risk paying for any rescues. At trails where hikers must sign the trail roster this would be especially effective. > > Mind, I am not opposed to the concept of fines, but would want them > carefully applied. Out of bounds skiers who willfully violate covenants to > which they have agreed by buying a lift ticket at a controlled ski area, and > who subsequently need a rescue, I could see the rationale for a fine. Absolutely!!! This has gotten completely out of hand lately. Also snow machine (and x/c skiers) who ignore avalanche warnings. We paddlers are in total limbo on this. There are no codified standards for > safe paddling conduct on open waters. Chart? Not required. VHF? Not > required. Compass? Ditto. Paddle float? Dry top? Bracing skills? Yadda > yadda yadda The list is endless. How would a paddler know what constituted > negligent behavior or conduct? Well, we *do* have to carry a whistle. > > Compare our situation to that of power boaters who need a rescue due to > their incompetence. Are they requiring a "boater's safety" card in Oregon yet? They require one in Washington now except that I'm exempt due to my age. Apparently I'm automatically qualified just based on the date I was born. I believe that in BC they require one regardless. But not for kayakers. > None of them are being fined for rescues in Oregon, despite the > substantial number who require rescue resources. How about New Hampshire > ... the state featured in the article? Bet not. To illustrate how slippery > this slope is, what about a family in an SUV who slide off an icy mountain > road into a deep ravine, all surviving, but unable to get back up to the > road? Do they pay for a haulout? Bet not. Certainly, failure to operate a > motor vehicle prudently is negligence ... and is codified in chapter and > verse in law. "Driving too fast for conditions" is the catch-all they use here to give people tickets for sliding off the road in snow or ice. Or probably anything else. When I was involved in SAR (many years ago) we actually looked forward to rescue situations that allowed us to mobilize.The "real thing" is (or was) better than any training exercise to show where we were lacking. Like the coordinator who decided that amateur radio operators were no longer needed because they had cell phones now. They carefully recharged all the cell phones before each drill but somehow forgot to know far enough in advance to charge them up for the real thing. LOL Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"...snip...Absolutely!!! This has gotten completely out of hand lately. Also snow machine (and x/c skiers) who ignore avalanche warnings. ... snip ..."Recently been reading "Deep Survival" by Lawrence Gonzalez. You SAR types may already know all he has to say.Others my find what the author has to say of interest too about how some folks "get into trouble".Yes, i believe there may be a case for filling for "rescues".I also believe there are many who venture into the outdoors or into the wildness expecting a "Disneyland" experience.That ain't gona happen other than in Disneyland.Safe paddlin' to you all in 2009.john *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 3:15 PM, John H <seajohnkayak_at_yahoo.com> wrote: > > I also believe there are many who venture into the outdoors or into the wildness expecting a "Disneyland" experience. > > That ain't gona happen other than in Disneyland. > > Safe paddlin' to you all in 2009. > > john > > > > > Oddly enough, that is exactly my theory for so many problems with people and the outdoors. I've called it the "adventure park" syndrome but I've also alluded to Disneyland. Basically many people seem to have simply lost the ability to recognize danger. Perhaps it's a result of being a member of a culture that has so little first-hand experience with the outdoors and lacking any basis for making good judgments. People who live in Seattle will routinely drive across the Cascade Mountains in winter dressed in pyjamas and slippers and never give it a second thought. My wife and I tried to help a pair of these who had become locked out of their (running) pickup truck at Traveler's Rest (a historic rest stop at the summit of Snoqualmie Pass) during a snowstorm last winter. It was about 1am. There they were in their jammies and slippes. They were in no real danger (they could hide out in the heated bathrooms 'til someone showed up to help) where they were but had they slid off the road there would be every chance of freezing to death before anyone even knew they were in trouble. Dunno how to fix it. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Jan 4, 2009, at 6:15 PM, John H wrote: > I also believe there are many who venture into the outdoors or > into the wildness expecting a "Disneyland" experience. I took a pontoon boat ride through the Okefenokee swamp over Christmas. While my family and I were waiting for the boat guide at the Ranger station a group of three redneck families started wandering down the nature trail. They quickly spotted a 7 foot gator sunning itself on the grassy edge of the swamp. A dad in the group went up and started slapping it on the head and the gator hissed and jumped into the water. He turned in astonishment and yelled, " I didn't think it was real!" The rest agreed that it was amazing that the gator was real. Real giant predators in a real giant swamp. How unexpected. Maybe the dude could find a Florida panther to try and pet. Feeling a bit doomed as a species, Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Just think, that redneck got for free an experience that can usually cost an arm and a leg! Mark -----Original Message----- A dad in the group went up and started slapping it on the head and the gator hissed and jumped into the water. He turned in astonishment and yelled, " I didn't think it was real!" *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
(Feeling a bit doomed as a species) Darwin tagged it well. "Natural Selection." It keeps the herd strong. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hey gang, I could not open the link so I am not sure of the story that created this topic but as a member of SAR I know the Coast Guard if they are involved in a search will fine people if they are called out on false pretenses. Several years ago a power boater called in a "mayday, I am sinking". When the CG found him in his boat sitting on calm seas with no water in his bilge but he was quite drunk. They confiscated his boat and fined him heavily. A big dispute happened on Denali a couple years ago when a climber returned who had to be rescued twice before. The rangers wanted to kick him off the mountain but others said they had no legal right to. As far as our local unit we have decided not to fine or charge people even if the search was a result of their own ignorance. We fear the word of a fine will cause others to search for friends and family themselves rather than call us until a lot of time has passed. The longer they wait to call us in the longer it takes for us to find them. We do however have a term called a "bastard search". This is when we first search the bars before going out lest we be tramping through the snow while the "victim" is enjoying himself drinking with his buddy. The term comes from a search a while back when a hunter returned to town and hit the bar before going home. His family in the mean time thought he was still out in the woods and called search and rescue. When the news reached the searchers in the field the term "bastard search" was spontaneously created. Other units have reported missing teenager who were actually hiding at their boy friend/girl friends house. Back when I was a white water raft guide in West Virginia we faced the Disney syndrome in people who could not get into their heads that these were real rapids and yes they could eat you up. One lady tried using her paddle to latch on to the "cable that was towing us down the river". "Amazing" she said "you can't even see it". The "what me worry" attitude and the lily dipping style of paddling of some often got the raft in trouble. "paddle or we are going to die!", sometimes worked but I found as a pastor I had an advantage. Rather than praying all I had to do was say oh s_at_*#^ and folks woke up and started paddling hard. Also remember it is easy for us to sit back and say what another person does is crazy but remember going out to sea in our wee boats is considered by many to border on lunancy. I have read accounts of more than one sea kayaker having to presuade some government offical in a bananna republic that a seakayak was a safe boat along the coast. Take care Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Now that I have been able to read the full article I can better comment. What worries me about the pay for rescue is who decides what is reckless or reasonable? I have been called a damn idiot more than once in my river and sea kayaking days for some of the trips I have taken. I only found out recently that some in one of my former parishes considered me "crazy" for some of the trips I took risking leaving my wife a widow and my son fatherless. Do we really want to be in a position where some offical who has never been in a canoe on a calm lake fines us because we were late getting back because we decided to play it safe and hold up on an island because of the wind? Do you want to pay out the nose because your dear sweet Aunt Melba paniced and called the police because she thought when you said you were coming back friday you meant this friday not next friday? (My mom almost did this once while I was paddling in Florida) As a member of SAR we recently did a body search along the shore for a couple who had power boated up the Stikine River in a boat that was overloaded. Bad judgment but I would have hated to add to the grief of the family by charging the family for our efforts. I will gladly search for an "idiot" if it means someone did not hesitate to call in time for help. Up here in Alaksa we are in the midst of a big cold snap and if a family member hesitates to call SAR it may mean the difference between life and death. With the difficult financial situation a lot of people are in some might hesitate to call SAR if they knew it might cost them $$. By the way I strongly recommend the folks on Paddlewise to get involved with your local Search and Rescue unit. You already have a vat amount of outdoor skills, i.e. map and compass navigation, GPS usage, wilderness savvy that is so important to SAR operations. Plus you already have a lot of the gear and clothing necessary for a SAR operation. Plus if the search is for a sea kayaker you will have the expertise of tides, currents and wind to lead the SAR team to the "most probable area to search". stay found Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Interesting. I think outdoor adventurers make easy targets for b user-pay/cost-recoveryb laws like this because webre a minority and are often considered fringe oddballs. But if the threshold that trips this standard is to be b recklessb or even only b negligent,b letbs be consistent, shall we? Urban ambulance call to restart the heart of your typical overfed and under-exercised North American? Pay up please b the dangers of obesity are well known and well documented. Not slimming down and getting on a cardio fitness program is certainly negligent, arguably reckless. Whatbs that b you smoke too? Therebll be a smoking surcharge, since that ups the risks considerably. Insert your own variations for folks who drink excessively, drink and drive, skateboard, watch too much TV, etc, etc. B B B B Cheers, Philip -----Original Message----- From: James Farrelly <JFarrelly5_at_comcast.net> Speaking of rescues. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/29/us/29rescue.html?_r=1&em *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Jan 5, 2009, at 3:52 PM, kayakwriter_at_aim.com wrote: > were a minority and are often considered fringe oddballs. Well! I have never been so insulted in all my life. I am so upset that in order to feel better I will have to go put on my rubber skirt and helmet, pick up my stick and go to the river to commune with nature. Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Just don't pee into your skirt. (grin) Craig PS: Yup... I have. On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 1:00 PM, James Farrelly <JFarrelly5_at_comcast.net>wrote: > On Jan 5, 2009, at 3:52 PM, kayakwriter_at_aim.com wrote: > > > we re a minority and are often considered fringe oddballs. > > > Well! > I have never been so insulted in all my life. > I am so upset that in order to feel better I will have to go put on > my rubber skirt and helmet, pick up my stick and go to the river to > commune with nature. > > Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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