Go here for details: http://www.westcoastpaddler.com/community/viewforum.php?f=13 From the above: "The BCMNTA is collecting information about campsites along the entire coastline of British Columbia from Alaska to Washington, including both coasts of Vancouver Island. This is a huge undertaking that will take several years to complete. The finished network of trails will benefit paddlers for generations to come and will provide safe havens for paddlers from around the world who wish to paddle the magnificent coast of British Columbia." This is a worthy, overdue effort, in my view. The long and short of it is that evolution of land use pressures and recent shifts in ownership of near-shore lands on some of the most interesting and wonderful sections of the BC coastline appear to threaten the open access many of us have enjoyed in some really primo areas: Clayoquot Sound, Esperanza Inlet, Nootka Sound, Barkley Sound, etc. Like many others, I have "concealed" some of my favorite sites for camping by sea kayak, believing that the less information out there, the better. Land use pressures in BC demand that paddlers make their voices loud to reserve and retain what we can for our needs ... and the BC Marine Trails Network seems dedicated to that end. Please do not be intimidated by the idealized description of the detailed information they are seeking: _any_ information in pictorial or verbal form you can provide will be useful. Here's hoping a system similar to the Maine system will eventually result. It is time for us to band together to help make this happen, whether a Canadian citizen or not. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Gathering information on campsites and widely distributing it will have the effect of drastically increasing the number of paddlers using and abusing the limited resources. What was once a wilderness experience will become tamed and crowded. Is this what you really want? Much like the hiking guidebooks that seemed like such a good idea when they first appeared, but later became guides to where not to go hiking on a weekend, a marine trail is likely to have a similar result. Once the trail is established it becomes a destination for those who wouldn't have struck out on their own but now have a goal to paddle the "trail" that is nicely mapped out for them right down to the GPS coordinates. Next we will see fees and permits required. With the new crowds will come restrictions as to where one can and cannot camp (that don't exist at the present or are not enforced on the rare kayaker making a bivouac out of necessity). Following that will come a reservation system so you will get to deal with the bureaucracy some more in order to get your "wilderness experience". How many times does this have to happen to see what a trail and publicity for it create? Because of the new kayak crowds, the landowners along the route will likely learn to loath kayakers like many shore residents have already learned to do in Washington State's San Juan Islands. The once friendly natives, when kayak sightings were a rare, later conspired to close put-ins near ferry docks to discourage the new kayaking blight as much as possible. Keep the BC coast a wilderness experience, do not sell it out by revealing the campsites you know about for the sake of taming and crowding it! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"MATT MARINER BROZE" wrote "in part" Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] BC MARINE TRAILS NETWORK - Assistance Required > Gathering information on campsites and widely distributing it will have > the > effect of drastically increasing the number of paddlers using and abusing > the > limited resources. Keep the BC coast a > wilderness experience, do not sell it out by revealing the campsites you > know > about for the sake of taming and crowding it! Matt raises a good point here, unfortunately it may be too late to stop the onset of taming the wilderness kayak experience. Is there anyone more guilty of this then ourselves. How many times have I seen 20 foot kayaks loaded with a ton of kit, the lap top, the four burner stove, the media devices, chairs strapped to decks, the solar panel and on and on for an over night trip. I once traveled to a remote area that was uncontrolled for a long weekend camping trip. Unfortunately for me one of the group brought along one of those guide books and insisted on bagging all the campsites in the area. She collected them like trophies. The consequences being that instead of setting up a base camp and exploring the area we turned into human powered barges and simply barged all this stuff from one site to another. At one point we became engaged in a race to the last trophy camp site against another set of paddlers. How stupid. I've never paddled with her again. Yet I would never paddle the Welsh Coast without Jim Krawiecki excellent guide book. It has information on where to camp but it's focus is on the paddling and the areas of interest to paddlers. Ironically I believe a lot of this is being driven by people in the kayak industry who have a commercial interest in the process. For example I'd like to see a full disclosure of who is involved behind this drive to create a BC Watertrail. Some questions come to mind. 1. What's the relationship between these groups? 2. I know that one interested party produces a kayaking magazine that is used to promote the other side of the business, selling guide books and maps. Is there is a relationship between this party and the form that's promoting this plan? 3. Is there commercial element to that relationship? 4. I wonder who will get the contract to produce the trail guide and maps once the Watertrail and campsites are identified? I'm sure of one thing it'll be the BC tax payer who'll pay for it. There will be government grants to complete the initial work, then the organizers will apply for a grant or "gift", then a suitable publisher will be found, who's cost will be paid for from the gifted money. That's only the start. Site development costs and operational costs will follow. My finial question is: If you support this project would you be willing to up front the cost of producing the trail guides, developing the camp sites and contribute to an endowment fund to ensure there are sufficient funds to meet on going operation expenses. Grist for the mill. Grind away. Gordin Warner Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> "MATT MARINER BROZE" wrote "in part" >> Gathering information on campsites and widely distributing it will >> have the effect of drastically increasing the number of paddlers using >> and abusing the limited resources. Keep the BC coast a wilderness >> experience, do not sell it out by revealing the campsites you know >> about for the sake of taming and crowding it! Alas, for much of the area concerned, we are waaay past that point: it ain't wilderness any more. There are already too many people there; too many sight-seeing boats; too many flown-in visitors hitting hot spots; too many other parties competing for the scarce shoreside venues we all seek. It _was_ wilderness when Matt first visited it; it is, no longer. The motivation for delineating usable campsites for paddlers is to nail down turf for us, in the face of intense, all pervading threats from the private sector and other claimants who would exclude us from using beaches well known to the paddling community, by and large, and to reserve for later generations of paddlers lesser-known areas. Matt's description of the effect of the many hiking books produced in the early 1970's (and later) on sensitive and isolated areas of the Cascades of Washington is accurate. Only he and I will understand this reference: Ed Cooper's magnificent photo of Prussik Peak in the Enchantments, shown in full golden larch adornment, on the cover of the first edition of "1-2 Hikes" . Matt, I was freaking _there_, that fall of 1969, and watched Cooper set up for that photo (my first visit). For many years, I felt Cooper and Louise Marshall "ruined" the Enchantments by promoting the squat out of it, for the purpose of accelerating the process of reserving the Alpine Lakes Wilderness Area, in the face of heavy pressures to road and log the daylights out of it. It is forty years later. I think differently now. I feel population pressures would have done what Ed and Louise initiated, maybe delayed by a decade or so if all of us had kept the "secret" of the Enchantments, but that is all. It would have happened anyway. Anyone who has paddled Clayoquot Sound and similar areas recently would have to understand how desperate the situation is: development pressures are the true villain today. Strong measures are needed to fend them off, and strong medicine must be taken. It will have a bad taste going down, to some extent, but it is needed, nonetheless. We should be grateful to the dedicated souls in British Columbia who are working to save what we already know of and use (heavily, in some cases). I have abhorred guidebooks going on 45 years now, and I will go to my grave that way. But, we are no longer in the innocent time of 1969, 1959, 1949, or years before I was born. We have to take aggressive action to save what we all love on the beaches of BC. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It's no secret that I'm an old guy. I was hiking and climbing in the Cascades when the Milepost made its appearance. Up until then those who worked at jobs that only gave us 1 or 2 weeks of vacation a year (or, in my case, two months of "home leave" every two years) would only find out about a good trail by stumbling across it or by hearing about it from friends. The Milepost, arguably the first hiking guidebook to the Cascades in Washington State, gave us more information about those trails but it also promoted trail repair and careful stewardship of the wilderness. Or at least, whatever wilderness was left after the loggers had finished clear-cutting a few thousand acres at a time. In the 1960s only those of us who hiked, or who flew small planes, into the wilderness knew just how many logging roads there were and how much of the land was stripped bare. By the 1980s the logging had spread so far that drivers on I-90 across Snoqualmie Pass could see the result. Only then did things really change. So, unlike Matt and Dave, I don't remember the guidebooks as being all that harmful. In fact, I firmly believe that it was only by promoting hiking and camping in the mountains did we eventually preserve it for those who want to go there today. Sure, it's encumbered by a bureaucracy and you have to have permits and reservations for some places. But it's there and my grandchildren can hike in areas that were only scarred slash in 1970. In fact, I have to explain to them what the mountainsides looked like when I started climbing. I like that. So while I understand Matt's point of view and sympathize with it, I firmly believed that guidebooks saved the Cascades for the hikers of today. If those areas had only been known by a few dedicated hikers and climbers and not loved and visited by hundreds of regular working folks from Seattle (who voted) I don't believe we'd have the hiking we have now. I don't know enough about the wilderness of BC to comment on the effects of organized campsites there. I do know that BC has done some amazing things with the Johnstone Strait area. The creation of hundreds of campsites - some of which are dedicated to commercial operations; most of which are dedicated to vagabond paddlers - has allowed people to view that area from all over the world. The more eyes on a wilderness the more effective the campaign to keep it from being decimated. Sure, it's not the same wilderness it was but it's also not condos and fancy restaurants. Or millions of acres of slash. (BC loggers have been known to clearcut an area 500 miles on a side!!!) The wilderness areas of BC actually have a lower density of human population than it had in the 1920s and 1930s. People have moved away from those areas and so there is no longer a permanent human residence to speak for it. The logging and mining corporations have been more than happy to step into that breach. I don't like that so much. Matt and Dave and I can remember when it was true wilderness. When you could camp anywhere in the Broken Group and not see another person for a week. And there is still a wilderness out there; you just have to work harder to get to it. It's not the same as it was in 1960. But then, what is? The pressures of land use and control of the resources in those areas have become so intense that I believe only by introducing a large number of people (who vote) to it can preserve it in anything like it's former state. I think that worked in the Cascades and Olympics. It's only my opinion, but it's worth every penny you paid for it. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: > It's no secret that I'm an old guy. I was hiking and climbing in the > Cascades when the Milepost made its appearance. [snip] Ditto. It was called Signpost, IIRC. Louise Marshall's publication. > So, unlike Matt and Dave, I don't remember the guidebooks as being all that > harmful. In fact, I firmly believe that it was only by promoting hiking and > camping in the mountains did we eventually preserve it for those who want to > go there today. I thought that at the time, and still prefer guidebooks to provide skeletal guidance, only. However, I agree with your central thesis: we have to stake our claim, or others will drive the stakes of development through the heart of the "wilderness" we love, compromised though it may be. > Matt and Dave and I can remember when it was true wilderness. When you could > camp anywhere in the Broken Group and not see another person for a week. And > there is still a wilderness out there; you just have to work harder to get > to it. It's not the same as it was in 1960. But then, what is? True. Visiting areas of the BC coast two-three times, I have been discovering more and more private spots not yet in the glare of exploitation. And, contrary to my past practice, I have been sharing those spots with others, slowly and selectively. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 9:49 AM, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: > Craig Jungers wrote: > >> It's no secret that I'm an old guy. I was hiking and climbing in the >> Cascades when the Milepost made its appearance. [snip] >> > > Ditto. It was called Signpost, IIRC. Louise Marshall's publication. > Oh yeah... Singpost. I knew it had "post" in it. LOL. Hey, I told ya I was an ol' guy. Craig *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
One needs to be careful about how one talks about this as it is easy to come across sounding like: "I know and love these places and I want to keep them nice for myself even though they don't belong to me, so I don't want anyone else to know about them." This is of course a completely bogus stand, because anyone who goes to any of these places is vastly increasing the number that use it beyond zero, which is the least damaging number. If you are now going to a camp site you are now part of the problem. Watertrails are a solution to an existing problem, not the source of a new one. People are going to these places now. And even now new people are learning about them. And every additional person that learns about it is adding to the problem. Whenever someone goes to one of these places to find it already occupied, they will move on and make a new place. Before you know it, the whole water front is abused and over used. People are going to come, regardless of how much guidance they receive. They are going because people have sea kayaks and other boats and they want to do trips. This is the source of the pressure. Maybe the problem is kayak builders? The water trail idea started in Maine with the Maine Island Trail Association http://www.mita.org/about/history. It has served to mitigate abuse. The association gets permission from landowners and promotes careful use of campsites. By working with landowners in a responsible way it has opened up more islands to use. There are still unsanctioned landing spots that get used, but now there are more places where the owner is happy to have visitors. MITA also works with public lands to help protect landing sites and keeping people away from unsuitable locations. The Maine coast is very close to major population centers and I have been paddling the coast of Maine for over 20 years (since before MITA came into existence), and while there are more kayaks on the water now, the only islands that are being overrun are those that were being overrun 20 years ago. But, at these places the impact is not as bad as it used to be. MITA also works with outfitters and guides to control how much use specific sites get. It is possible a BC trail network will not work in the same way MITA has, but in reality, most people are lazy and don't get out to the really nice spots even if they know they are there. The people who are of a mind to go to the remote places are doing it already. A good guide book can serve to spread these users out over a wider area. A well run watertrail system can reduce the impact. Nick On Mar 6, 2009, at 4:28 AM, MATT MARINER BROZE wrote: > Gathering information on campsites and widely distributing it will > have the > effect of drastically increasing the number of paddlers using and > abusing the > limited resources. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 54 South Rd Groton, CT 06340 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
(moderator repost - my apologies if this is a duplicate) Nick, thank you for your thoughtful comments. They are bang on. I've left your e-mail attached to this message in it's entirety because it's well worth another read. It's important to consider that we live on a planet that has doubled in population over the past 50 years to more than 6 billion people, and that the population of British Columbia, in that same time period, has more than tripled! I suspect that the number of people visiting by way of tourism to British Columbia during that timeframe has also increased by at least threefold or more. There are a lot of people seeking space not only to live on this planet, but also in their quests to recreate. It would be a rare instance in this day and age for one to visit a coastal region anywhere on the planet aside from the polar extremes for several days without coming across another person, be they in a sailboat, powerboat, or kayak. The days of true coastal wilderness, are sadly behind us. In British Columbia, access to suitable places for kayakers to camp and visit along the coast are disappearing at an alarming rate (by way of land acquisitions by private and commercial interests). If we allow another ten years to pass there will be far fewer places to access than we are currently able. Given this trend, if something is not done now, in a few short years it will be next to impossible for a kayaker to safely (and legally) paddle the entire coastline of BC. Like it or not, the BC Marine Trails Network is absolutely necessary if we wish to continue having access for paddling the coastlines of BC. I'd like to take this opportunity to address the comments that Gordin Warner made in a previous post... Gordin, there are no secrets here -- if you would like a list of all the people directly involved in the BCMTNA, send me an e-mail and I'll gladly forward a complete list of names to you. The vast majority of those involved in the BCMTNA are representatives of paddling clubs in BC. There are three exceptions which include the magazine owner that you refer to, myself, and Mick Allen (another principal of westcoastpaddler.com). Both myself and Mick are also representatives from the Pacific International Kayak Association and the Sea Kayak Association of BC, respectively. The magazine owner that you mention is contributing far more to the benefit of the project than he will ever receive from it. His intimate knowledge of the BC coast has been a great asset to the project and you should know that he has purposefully distanced himself from certain aspects of the project because he is concerned about potential perceptions of conflicts of interest -- something that most of the others involved don't feel is necessary. Aside from this one person, there are currently no other companies involved in the project. You ask who will get contracts for trail guides once the sites are confirmed -- we haven't got that far yet, but I can tell you that the majority of access to the trail and campsite information available in the future, will be available on the BCMNTA website. The information, once compiled will also be made publicly available by the Province of British Columbia. With regard to development and operational costs, we have received a contract from the Province of British Columbia to to assist them in the construction of a database inventory of all campsites along the coast. Many of these locations will be put forward by the Provincial Government to be protected and safe-guarded from future development, others will be secured through negotiations with private land owners. The funds received for this contract have brought the project to it's current stage. Other aspects such as the construction of the BCMNTA website have been fully donated. To date, all travel expenses to meetings, etc, have been paid out of pocket by individual volunteers. Additional money to fund the project is coming in a one-time sum in the form of a grant from the Province from the BC 150 program (which is celebrating 150 years of British Columbia). All other operating capital for the project will be come from other sources such as private and commercial donations, not from tax dollars. I cannot say that we won't apply for other government subsidies and grants should they be available to us in the future. For more information about the BC 150 project, see their website: http://www.bc150.gov.bc.ca/ British Columbia has 22,000 kilometres (14,000 miles) of coastline making this a monumental task to complete. The group of volunteers who are working on this project have contributed countless hours to the undertaking and are all there because they acknowledge our diminishing access to coastal waters and do not wish to sit idly while that access becomes prohibitively restricted. We urge all interested parties to contribute by way of sharing information about campsites. You can submit information and photos at: http://www.westcoastpaddler.com/community/viewforum.php?f=13 Nick, once again, thank you for your insight. Respectfully, Dan Millsip Director, BC Marine Trails Network Association http://www.bcmarinetrails.org ----- ----- Original Message ----- From: Nick Schade To: Matt Broze ; Paddlewise net Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 9:57 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] BC MARINE TRAILS NETWORK - Assistance Required One needs to be careful about how one talks about this as it is easy to come across sounding like: "I know and love these places and I want to keep them nice for myself even though they don't belong to me, so I don't want anyone else to know about them." This is of course a completely bogus stand, because anyone who goes to any of these places is vastly increasing the number that use it beyond zero, which is the least damaging number. If you are now going to a camp site you are now part of the problem. Watertrails are a solution to an existing problem, not the source of a new one. People are going to these places now. And even now new people are learning about them. And every additional person that learns about it is adding to the problem. Whenever someone goes to one of these places to find it already occupied, they will move on and make a new place. Before you know it, the whole water front is abused and over used. People are going to come, regardless of how much guidance they receive. They are going because people have sea kayaks and other boats and they want to do trips. This is the source of the pressure. Maybe the problem is kayak builders? The water trail idea started in Maine with the Maine Island Trail Association http://www.mita.org/about/history. It has served to mitigate abuse. The association gets permission from landowners and promotes careful use of campsites. By working with landowners in a responsible way it has opened up more islands to use. There are still unsanctioned landing spots that get used, but now there are more places where the owner is happy to have visitors. MITA also works with public lands to help protect landing sites and keeping people away from unsuitable locations. The Maine coast is very close to major population centers and I have been paddling the coast of Maine for over 20 years (since before MITA came into existence), and while there are more kayaks on the water now, the only islands that are being overrun are those that were being overrun 20 years ago. But, at these places the impact is not as bad as it used to be. MITA also works with outfitters and guides to control how much use specific sites get. It is possible a BC trail network will not work in the same way MITA has, but in reality, most people are lazy and don't get out to the really nice spots even if they know they are there. The people who are of a mind to go to the remote places are doing it already. A good guide book can serve to spread these users out over a wider area. A well run watertrail system can reduce the impact. Nick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig said (snip): > The pressures of land use and control of the resources in those areas have > become so intense that I believe only by introducing a large number of > people (who vote) to it can preserve it in anything like it's former > state. > I think that worked in the Cascades and Olympics. > > It's only my opinion, but it's worth every penny you paid for it. > > Craig Jungers > Moses Lake, WA I'd pay for your opinion. Matt's - not so much (well, not for the watertrails opinions, anyway, as pertains to Canadian waters). As for Nick's opinions, he was right on too. Funnily enough, Brian Henry of Ocean River Sports was on the local radio station afternoon talkshow the other day (I phoned in, in support) just after the big anti-marina development rally here in Victoria on the weekend. He said something that struck me as way-cool. He said one of the things we are put here on earth to go is to go out and do things like hiking and kayaking. I tend to agree. Marine trails are a necessary evil these days. So may the outhouses that will surely come one day be a compromise too. I'm waiting on the Northwest Passage to melt up, personally. Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 10:01 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > I'd pay for your opinion. Matt's - not so much (well, not for the > watertrails opinions, anyway, as pertains to Canadian waters). LOL... I have paid over-and-over for Matt's opinions; at least his opinions on boat designs. And I suspect I'm not done yet. I have an almost new Mariner II in my front yard and my wife, Susan, is mulling over an Express. And in six weeks I'll be building an SOF based on his Coaster. Pam - who corrupted me in the Mariner direction a few years ago - is in the same bat. So to speak. So may the outhouses that will surely come one day be a compromise too. Pooping in the wilderness has been an issue with me for 50 years. I have never felt comfortable doing it in the any of the traditional ways and it's one of several reasons why I am moving towards kayaking via a mothership (with an enclosed head compartment). The newer systems - using bags and containers - would have made my wilderness tripping (either on foot or by kayak) much more enjoyable. I think the "Left a Trace" thread on West Coast Paddlers expresses it well. So if eco-friendly outhouses are inevitable at least they'll serve a usefull purpose. > > I'm waiting on the Northwest Passage to melt up, personally. > > Meet you in Pt. Barrow in the spring of 2015!!! Bring your swimsuit. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
When I'm on vacation I'd pay big bucks just to have a nice, clean semi-private rest room to use! I may have to become a restroom mogul if the economy ever picks up. My kayak trip to Catalina last year was my first experience using a Wag Bag, and I have to say I prefer that system to most of the outhouses I've seen camping. I remember the outhouse down in the Havasupai Reservation was so disgusting, I would have hiked a mile to use a Wag Bag somewhere private! Mark -----Original Message----- Pooping in the wilderness has been an issue with me for 50 years. I have never felt comfortable doing it in the any of the traditional ways and it's one of several reasons why I am moving towards kayaking via a mothership (with an enclosed head compartment). The newer systems - using bags and containers - would have made my wilderness tripping (either on foot or by kayak) much more enjoyable. I think the "Left a Trace" thread on West Coast Paddlers expresses it well. So if eco-friendly outhouses are inevitable at least they'll serve a usefull purpose. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't disagree with Matt. If anything, I'm probably more appalled by marinetrails than even Matt is, and for the same and different reasons too. But it isn't the same world out there as when Matt and I started paddling. Ultimately, there will be aspects of a marine trail for BC that will not be beneficial to a wilderness experience, obviously. The marketing and user fee aspects are ones I hope paddlers will proactively work against as long as possible. The world could end tomorrow, the Chinese could invade North America next decade - who knows. But assuming nothing earth shattering transpires, I'd like to think my daughters and Dan Milsip's will be able to make the paddle to Alaska uninhibited in the future - and that travel along our coast, while always somewhat remote but perhaps not true wilderness in the future, will at least be doable with a minimum of fees and red tape. Come to think of it, a giant tsunami just might reduce that overcrowding population - but that's just too cruel a thought, especially as I'd be wiped out here on Vancouver Island - as well as my daughters. Besides, as has been pointed out, my heavy coastal use over the decades has only added to the growing recreational footprint. Doug Lloyd > On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 10:01 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > >> I'd pay for your opinion. Matt's - not so much (well, not for the >> watertrails opinions, anyway, as pertains to Canadian waters). > > > LOL... I have paid over-and-over for Matt's opinions; at least his > opinions > on boat designs. And I suspect I'm not done yet. I have an almost new > Mariner II in my front yard and my wife, Susan, is mulling over an > Express. > And in six weeks I'll be building an SOF based on his Coaster. Pam - who > corrupted me in the Mariner direction a few years ago - is in the same > bat. > So to speak. > > So may the outhouses that will surely come one day be a compromise too. > > > Pooping in the wilderness has been an issue with me for 50 years. I have > never felt comfortable doing it in the any of the traditional ways and > it's > one of several reasons why I am moving towards kayaking via a mothership > (with an enclosed head compartment). The newer systems - using bags and > containers - would have made my wilderness tripping (either on foot or by > kayak) much more enjoyable. I think the "Left a Trace" thread on West > Coast > Paddlers expresses it well. So if eco-friendly outhouses are inevitable at > least they'll serve a usefull purpose. > >> >> I'm waiting on the Northwest Passage to melt up, personally. >> >> Meet you in Pt. Barrow in the spring of 2015!!! Bring your swimsuit. > > > Craig Jungers > Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply including old headers and footers. It's list policy.... this post was modified to meet policy] The WAG BAG waste kit is a great invention but instead of spreading the WAG BAG on the ground, I like to use the front or rear hatch opening. I just spread the bag over the opening and it makes for a perfect seat. My wife's kayaks hatches are better suited for this, so I use hers. She has a Wilderness Tempest 165. Ken In a message dated 3/11/2009 12:47:41 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, sandmarks_at_ca.rr.com writes: When I'm on vacation I'd pay big bucks just to have a nice, clean semi-private rest room to use! I may have to become a restroom mogul if the economy ever picks up. My kayak trip to Catalina last year was my first experience using a Wag Bag, and I have to say I prefer that system to most of the outhouses I've seen camping. I remember the outhouse down in the Havasupai Reservation was so disgusting, I would have hiked a mile to use a Wag Bag somewhere private! Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
We are all on the same planet and until and if we can stop the population explosion we will slowly loose many things. Many measures are stopgap although worthy of support. I think that it is a tragedy. UNITED NATIONS The world's population will hit 7 billion early in 2012 and top 9 billion in 2050, with the vast majority of the increase coming in the developing countries of Asia and Africa, according to a U.N. estimate released Wednesday. "The projections are based on the assumption that fertility that is now around 2.56 children per woman is going to decline to about 2.02 children per woman in the world," said Hania Zlotnik, director of the U.N. Population Division. Population growth will remain concentrated in the most populous countries through 2050. Nine nations are expected to account for half the projected increase: India, Pakistan, Nigeria, Ethiopia, the United States, Congo, Tanzania, China and Bangladesh, the report said. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ken, Does Barb know what you do in HER boat? If not, I'll be sure to tell her tomorrow when I see you guys on the Black Canyon trip. Steve Holtzman Sent from my Wireless Crackberry er..... BlackBerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Steve Holtzman <sh_at_actglobal.net> wrote: > Ken, > > Does Barb know what you do in HER boat? > > If not, I'll be sure to tell her tomorrow when I see you guys on the Black > Canyon trip. > LOL... I was wondering if Barb knew. I guess we'll find out, huh? Craig *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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