What are the markers of an efficient stroke? Are elbows/arms up, paddle blade grazing the hull, minimal paddle length, raw speed, the only considerations? Chuck Sutherland *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
What are the markers of an efficient stroke? Are elbows/arms up, paddle blade grazing the hull, minimal paddle length, raw speed, the only considerations? My two cents worth An efficient stroke is one that works well, not necessarily one that looks 'correct.' All my paddling life people have said my stroke stinks, but I know it is efficient because I have won races from 500 meters to 35 miles. What is different about my stroke is that it is very deep, has a relatively low cadence and it ends about a foot or so out from the side of the boat a bit farther behind my hip than is classically taught. My sprint coach used to have us compete to learn who could go the farthest on the fewest strokes. This led me to putting a lot of oomph into each stroke but did not teach me to have a high turnover rate. I use a long paddle and have long arms for my height, which, I think, also explains the deep and slow stroke. The ending up away from the boat and behind is something that a lot of really good paddlers (without a wing paddle) do but don't acknowledge. If one looks at what the blade is doing by swinging out at the end of the stroke and back behind the hip, it is planted firmly in the wake that is coming off the boat. My theory (backed up by no research and total ignorance of physics) is that this an intuitive use of the wake as a high-pressure place to place the blade and, thus, get a boost out of the end of the stroke. Another variable in the forward stroke is how the paddler is put together and how they have used their muscles over their life. When I was a sprint racer I noticed that the shorter, stockier world champions had a different style than the taller, leaner ones. With wing paddles now, everyone looks more alike to me. The very last thing I ever worried about as a racer, and now as a sea kayaker, is having a 'vertical' angle to the shaft. In the pre-wing days many Scandinavian paddlers never lifted their hands above the deck of the boat. And they won a lot of big races. They had very high seats and very low paddle angles. Hardly bent their arms, either. I firmly believe, and teach accordingly, that there are some basics to the forward stroke that are good (relatively straight arm reach, catch quietly and power on after the blade is fully seated in the water, good rhythym, upright or slightly forward posture, good use of torso and legs), but the details need to be discovered over time for each paddler. A good coach will be necessary to aid the process, but that good coach should be flexible in her/his approach to what works for the student. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I wish I could have spent more time chasing after Jim when he was out here, I'm sure it would help my stroke! I think I keep a really narrow grip on my paddle, which I figure isn't very efficient, but I just seem to like it. I don't think anyone would call me a slow paddler and I've always made my destination, so things can't be all bad! Finally got my internet service working again after only 3 weeks!!! -----Original Message----- My two cents worth An efficient stroke is one that works well, not necessarily one that looks 'correct.' All my paddling life people have said my stroke stinks, but I know it is efficient because I have won races from 500 meters to 35 miles. What is different about my stroke is that it is very deep, has a relatively low cadence and it ends about a foot or so out from the side of the boat a bit farther behind my hip than is classically taught. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 6:49 PM, Mark Sanders <marksanders_at_sandmarks.net>wrote: > > > Finally got my internet service working again after only 3 weeks!!! > > Jeebus! I was wondering where you had gotten to. How did you manage? :P Craig *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> What are the markers of an efficient stroke? Are elbows/arms up, paddle > blade grazing the hull, minimal paddle length, raw speed, the only > considerations? Frankly, I could care less. My measure of an efficient stroke is how many cheeseburgers and medium fries it will take me to get from point A to B. Long paddle, short paddle, wing, leg, thigh, they are all good. Carbon fiber, Greenland style, European, whatever, I'm just happy to be cruising those open waters. Try to maximize your enjoyment of the experience, and forget about style points and going fast. Read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. Brad Crain Happy With Goin Slow in Portland, Or. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Well, Chris Mitchell once said to never take advice on the forward stroke from the kayaker who's behind you. Further to that, I'm hesitant to take advice from anyone who dogmatically tries to tell you how to do the forward stroke efficiently and exactly how it should look - even if they are in front of me and have great glide. Actually, Chris is pretty particular in what he teaches with the forward stoke I've heard. I guess you can agree with him or disagree or, as I often do with this type of situation is to consider aspects that seem logical and fit with my body style, muscle type, aerobic output (etc.) and boat and paddle type. At least with Mr. Mitchell, he's spent a few decades studying the movement of a paddle through the water. It is also true that some of the fishform kayaks and some of the wider designs just don't allow a nice steep plant. I don't know what it is that denotes an efficient stroke -- visually referenced , but I do know what Craig might be getting at. Certain paddlers just have this particular way of planting the paddle, pulling at a consistent trajectory, then pulling out without lifting water while they set up perfectly for the next plant and pull. When you see it, you recognize it, and maybe want to emulate it - or feel that perhaps you need to go to a stroke improvement class. Some of you guys out there are pretty smart and probably know a lot about fluid dynamics and such. I don't and can't pontificate - just agree that Craig has a good question about what is the sign of a good stroke. Not sure about that Brad guy though on fluid dynamics, unless he's talking about problems with urine dribble, but that's a different forum than Paddlewise. :-) I have a low angle stroke that suits me just fine for open water. I can go higher angle if I want to sprint in nice water. If I wanted to sprint around Australia, I might well take some classes from something verging on pro-style Olympic training and nail that look (and hopefully the efficiency that is supposed to be gained); but really for me, I don't care if I look sloppy/splashy (splooshy?). I usually out paddle most friends or at least tire them out by the end of the paddle and can keep that up all day if the rotator cuffs aren't acting up. In difficult storm conditions, head close to deck (or often just a pronounced lean forward) - my stroke must look awful. The blade enters the the water near the bow further forward than normal with my 230, pulls hard with a big Lendal blade with no soft dihedral gentleness, then swings out a bit toward the back of the stroke, so far back that I may be lifting some water on exit. What I loose in a fast plant, short choppy, even plucky pull with recommended early pull-out, I gain in the momentum I create in conditions that often warrant it when moving forward is done under duress. For really hard-core extreme paddling, I'll commit to an odd, definite, purpose-driven shove of my whole kayak forward, pivoting my hips/pelvis to bodily force the kayak an extra measure of forwardness. I'll make a guttural grunt like a native drum beat releasing out of my inner eard drums, and zone out for hours doing this. If I'm caught for hours in a counter-productive current or worsening storm, I'll sometime stiffen up my torso and rock the kayak from side to side matching each alternating lean with the paddle plant and pull as I conserve energy playing with anaerobic/aerobic ratios. So. not exactly looking like Mr.Barton there Mr. Lloyd... Scroll down to the Aug 24 post. http://www.westcoastpaddler.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=2237&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=atlantis&start=25 Doug Lloyd > > It's easy to confuse paddling styles with paddle stroke. It's only > sensible > that rotating the upper body helps. What I guess I was trying to get at > was; > is there a sign of an efficient paddle stroke? And if there is, what is > it? > I know it's not a lack of paddle drips on the spray deck. My wing paddle > throws a *lot* of water but is the fastest thing I've ever paddled with. > If > I try to stop throwing water off the back then it slows down... so I > stopped > trying. It also makes a distinctive "plop" sound when I have the catch > just > right. But this is paddle-specific. Is a quieter paddle stroke more > efficient? One that doesn't throw water? > > Jim Tibensky's remarks about moving the paddle away from the boat at the > end > of the stroke also seems (to me) to be faster. In fact I find myself > levering down on the shaft of my standard euros some to get more speed. > Much > like a modified wing stroke. But I try to keep my catch vertical. > > I'm in the throes of Tour de France fever right now so I might not be > totally comprehensible for another 2-1/2 weeks. Yesterday's team trials > were > so incredible that I had to breathe into a paper bag for 30 minutes > afterwards. :P > > Chris Cunningham of Sea Kayaker Magazine has some questions about the size > of a sea kayak and whether old notions are still relevant. Link is at: > > http://www.seakayakermag.com/2009/09e-newsletters/july/sizingup.htm > > It seems like good fodder for this group. > > > Craig Jungers > Moses Lake, WA > www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. 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Here are some good boating practices...no paddling, but nice technique. [demime 1.01e removed an attachment of type video/x-ms-wmv which had a name of Video-Seniorsboating.wmv] *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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