Dave wrote:...When I had joints and tendons which could take the abuse, a longer paddle was also more efficient..... I would argue that the paddle that gives you a natural and easy to maintain cadence is likely more efficient than a shorter paddle that requires too high a cadence to comfortably maintain. Also a paddle long enough to clear the deck and sides of the kayak while the blade is buried completely will be more efficient than a shorter paddle as well. However, going much longer than that creates other inefficiencies such as the blade operating further off the centerline (or too deep) and by putting more strain on the body with each stroke if you are trying to maintain a pace near hull speed anyhow. Think about being in the right gear when pedalling a bicycle up a slight hill, the longer the paddle the higher the gear. A bike racer is obsessed about efficiency. Too low a gear and they loose coordination or spend too much effort trying to maintain it, but those racers prefer a higher cadence rather than a lower one that higher gear brings (or a longer paddle would bring). Paddlewises Chuck Sutherland may argue with this if he is still using that 108" (274cm) paddle we had custom made for him years ago. I've settled on paddles in the 215 to 220cm range for cruising (and racing when I did so). I use considerably shorter ones for whitewater (where I was sitting lower in the water and needed to accellerate quickly a lot). Same for surfing any kayak. The lower gear of the shorter paddle makes for better accelleration when you need it for catching a wave. My WW paddles (which I also preferred in ocean breakers with a sea kayak) are in the 196 to 204cm range. I wouldn't want to have to paddle long distnces with them though because the stroke rate to get the kayak to hull speed is uncomfortable to maintain for very long. Also, I wouldn't want to use my lightweight graphite touring paddles in breakers anyway as they break a lot easier than the WW paddles and are very expensive to replace. If, as Craig found out, you can replace them at all. Does anyone have a graphite Lightning paddle they want to sell Craig? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 4:31 PM, MATT MARINER BROZE <marinerkayaks_at_msn.com>wrote: > > I would argue that the paddle that gives you a natural and easy to maintain > cadence is likely more efficient than a shorter paddle that requires too > high > a cadence to comfortably maintain. Maybe I'm abnormal (a common accusation, for some reason) but I prefer a faster cadence and a more vertical plant. But I also generally use 220cm paddles except, as you, for white water and/or surf (not that I do much surfing except on boat wakes). Before my knee injury I was a fanatic bicyclist with a Peugeot PX-10 (sew up tires and all) that I bought in the 1970s (in Paris where I set off on a 1,000 mile ride through 4 countries). I still have the PX-10 but can only ride it with one foot in the clips. I'm still faster than the 8-yr old though. LOL. At any rate... I was a big believer in "spinning" to keep my speed up. I thought it was a lot easier than trudging on a higher gear. I notice that Lance Armstrong spins faster even than most bike pro racers in the TdF. I think I do the same thing with a paddle. I have zero problems with shoulder pain but lots of problems with arthritis in my hands. Another reason for the muthah-ship. I like a wing paddle because when it's used in combination with a kayak that glides well (like most of the Mariners and especially the Mariner II) I can paddle 33% fewer strokes and still keep ahead of most kayakers. Very relaxing. :P I just wish I had a lighter wing (like an Onno). And ya... don't lose the paddle you love if the guy who built it sold the company to a competitor that only wanted to shut down his line. If you have a Lightning in graphite (especially a 2-piece at 200cm) call me. :) Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> zero problems with shoulder pain but lots of problems > with arthritis in my hands Craig One of the advantages (that I hadn't expected) with the move to a GP (Greenland paddle), was the reduction in hand-fatigue from gripping a shaft smaller-than-optimal for my hand size. At the end of my first year of paddling ('Euro' paddle), I was a couple of days into an 8-day trip with friends when two long & very sunny days left me with painful sunburn on both hands. The only gloves I had were thin poly-pros (in my emergency get-warm bag). They worked fine for sun-protection, but were an absolute bugger for gripping the fibreglass shaft. The next day was a very long day, but at the end of it I knew a lot more about pulling a euro paddle through water with balance and a light touch - to reduce flutter and the need for a death-grip. I had not realised how much I was unconsciously resisting the rotation of the paddle shaft, while I drew it through the stroke - and how tight a grip this necessitated. I often challenge newish paddlers, proud of their strokes (as I was), to perform the same self-training exercise - as I think that learning to paddle with a light grip has long-term benefits for arm tendons and all the joints in the wrist & hand. Some years later, I was following John Heath's instructions to figure out my body measurements, prior to cutting up the wood for my first GP. It wasn't until then that it occurred to me that hand size might lead you to using a different diameter paddle shaft. Even talking to Olympic paddlers, it's not common for them to worry about shaft diameter. Thinking how significant grip diameter used to be in Tennis and even how popular it was for touring bicyclists to increase the diameter of the grip on their handlebars - I have wondered ever since why paddlers don't care. I certainly like having my GP paddle loom large enough to grip easily and find that my hands tire much less now than they did on a standard glass loom (even after my inadvertent training). Perhaps you would do the arthritis a favour if you built-up the loom or shaft a bit using some foam or cork, covered with a wrap of cycle tape ? There may be better ways to do it experimentally - so you could just rip the whole affair off if you don't like the result ;-) Best Regards Paul Hayward Auckland, New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 8:32 PM, Paul Hayward <pdh_at_mmcl.co.nz> wrote: > > One of the advantages (that I hadn't expected) with the move to a GP > (Greenland paddle), was the reduction in hand-fatigue from gripping a shaft > smaller-than-optimal for my hand size. > > It's certainly plausible that paddle shaft diameter can make a big difference. I also spent a lot of years playing tennis and tennis rackets have been available in various grip sizes since the days of the wooden rackets (and ya, I played with those, too). There are paddles which are available in two shaft diameters: "small" and (presumably) "regular" but I've never seen a "large" and I can't recall seeing an actual size (in inches or cm) to define what "small" is. Or what "regular" is, for that matter. Paddle manufacturers probably should take a closer look at offering paddles in various shaft diameters; more than just the "small" option. I can see them cringing at that idea now. Werner hasn't offered a wing paddle (other than their custom-built paddles for the US Canoe and Kayak Team - one of which I have) because of the problems producing them. The idea of having to build them in various shaft diameters must keep their production people awake at night. I do agree that my GP fits my hands better and is light weight. My problem is that my GP (and maybe its my own fault) has given the term "flutter" a whole new definition. Perhaps technique can fix it or perhaps if I simply built a better GP. I dunno. I would have to try an assortment of GPs to determine which it is. I bet Duane Strosaker has some ideas on this. Another possible help for arthritic hands could be a bent shaft. My wife has a low-angle bent shaft paddle that I could use if she weren't so paranoid that I might actually adopt it as my own (it's a one-piece shaft and so there is little likelihood of me doing that). Plus, of course, it's a "small" shaft paddle. My particular problem is the thumb joint and it's not at all limited to paddling. In fact it can be extremely painful at any time or even all the time; and in both hands. Or some days there is no pain at all. Very frustrating. Perhaps only the adoption of a GP will help. Sigh. There is nothing nicer than the feel of a big-blade, low-angle Euro paddle accelerating a fast, nimble kayak. That sheer acceleration is so much fun. Plus it's fun leaving everyone behind, too. And for long distance paddling.... well, *I* have a mother-ship. :P Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Saturday, 18 July 2009 01:41, Craig Jungers <pdh_at_mmcl.co.nz> wrote: > my GP (and maybe its my own fault) has given the term "flutter" a whole new definition I am not going to put my neck out too far here... I'm sure there are more expert GP enthusiasts on Paddlewise. Seven of us in NZ got seriously interested in GPs about 5 years ago, when we had our noses rubbed in their capabilities by a roving fella from Montana (Shawn, you have a lot to answer for). We built some, used them, built others and compared notes. Two years later, we were lucky enough to get some input from Cherie, Greg & Turner - but we've probably managed to distil our very own set of bad habits and misconceptions. But we're all still using them and the number using them has grown. We found that the 'correct' size (according to Holst & Heath) seemed ideal for a low-volume rolling SoF, but that we enjoyed a somewhat longer GP for a more conventional composite sea kayak. This was especially true for use in a double. Of course, I also used to find that true when I used a Euro paddle in a double - I'd extend my centre lock a bit. The idea that sitting higher and in a wider boat begged for a longer paddle, grew on us. As we learned to use the GPs, most of us took a month of paddling (say 10-20 hours) to feel we were getting some skill. During this period, we steadily reduced the flutter and 'grumbling' of our GPs. As I got the technique better in the single, I could detect a major step backwards when I jumped into the double - so I decided to make a longer paddle for use in the double. That worked well and then one day, when I tried it in the single, all the residual grumble went away and I settled on it as an improvement. My first paddle was 2300mm (96.1") and when I went longer I added 100mm to each end - to give 2500 (98.4"). There was nothing magic (or engineered) about the 100mm, I just decided to make it 'significantly' longer and then trim it back until I found a 'sweet spot.' I've never trimmed it back and all my subsequent paddles (lighter ones, stronger ones, hollow ones, splits - I've played around some) have remained at that length. Natasha took longer to get interested in a GP and never liked her 'correct' length one much. She has used (and loved) the longer version for about 4 years and some serious mileage. Later, looking at the paddles in the Peterborough (Canada) museum - and in various books - I can see that the range of paddle length is huge. Perhaps it's fair to say that the longer they are, the narrower they seem to be. But I'm not expert on why. I find that my long paddle is very good for racing (say 2 hours) and good for touring (say 12 hours). It punches out better through surf (where I feel the GP is least effective) and starts to make my shoulders ache going into a headwind. Probably no surprises here - and likely paralleled in the world of euro blades. If you don't mind playing around with your GP, I'd suggest gluing a 50mm extension onto each end and going for a blast. Best Regards Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 7:48 AM, Paul Hayward <pdh_at_mmcl.co.nz> wrote: > > My first paddle was 2300mm (96.1") and when I went longer I added 100mm to > each end - to give 2500 (98.4"). There was nothing magic (or engineered) > about the 100mm, I just decided to make it 'significantly' longer and then > trim it back until I found a 'sweet spot.' I've never trimmed it back and > all my subsequent paddles (lighter ones, stronger ones, hollow ones, splits > - I've played around some) have remained at that length. > Yikes!!! That is one long paddle. But it's interesting that I have an old book about the arctic and there is one photo taken (I believe) in eastern Canada with several Inuit kayaks in a line towing a whale and using VERY long paddles. The photo was taken from a ridge above and to the side of the paddlers and the paddles are clearly GPs and the length is striking. So perhaps you have rediscovered something here. So do I understand that you folks also struggled with flutter issues? If I had a spare $400 I'd buy one of the graphite GPs or drive to California and beg Strosaker to let me try one of his graphite blades. I keep going back to his web page about the construction and to Chuck Holst's pages about the wooden GPs and trying to figure out where I went wrong (with the flutter). I have one more almost perfect cedar 2x4 as a blank for a new paddle. It's 8' long so I could experiment with something longer. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Narrower the paddle the higher the flutter rate and the less likely you will know where you paddle blade will be at any given time. It is sort of a falling leaf effect. Some blades of the same width flutter less radically than others and that is due to the blade shape and dihedral on the power face. Also a bigger loom will give the paddler a little better control of the flutter. I have huge hands and I do just fine with the narrow shafts (as even the thin walled graphite shafts on the standard size loom tend to be. the trick is using the paddle in such a way you hardly have to grip it but rather just push with the ball of your open hand and pull with your hooked fingers. This will cure wrist problems too since you won't be bending your wrist to follow the shaft angle change that happens during the stroke. The cure for flutter (and too tight a grip with any paddle) is to use the paddle with a wing like stroke. With a GP paddle angle the top of the blade forward so it dives down some as it enters the water and you are pulling on it and then reverses itself and climbs out ot the water toward the end of the stroke (at the first half of a flutter as it reaches its deepest point). Glide down, a single flutter at the stopping point, and glide back up and out. As long as you get the paddle on a glide path to the side (from the point of view of the paddle) as you are pulling it shouldn't flutter. With a vertical wing paddle like stroke using a Euro blade you get a lot of the benefits of the wing stroke including no flutter (without having that god awful splashy water throwing wing blade that is poor at stern draws, low braces, duffeks, bow draws, and skulling support strokes). Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 08:10:20 -0700 Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddle length From: crjungers_at_gmail.com To: pdh_at_mmcl.co.nz CC: marinerkayaks_at_msn.com; paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 7:48 AM, Paul Hayward <pdh_at_mmcl.co.nz> wrote: My first paddle was 2300mm (96.1") and when I went longer I added 100mm to each end - to give 2500 (98.4"). There was nothing magic (or engineered) about the 100mm, I just decided to make it 'significantly' longer and then trim it back until I found a 'sweet spot.' I've never trimmed it back and all my subsequent paddles (lighter ones, stronger ones, hollow ones, splits - I've played around some) have remained at that length. Yikes!!! That is one long paddle. But it's interesting that I have an old book about the arctic and there is one photo taken (I believe) in eastern Canada with several Inuit kayaks in a line towing a whale and using VERY long paddles. The photo was taken from a ridge above and to the side of the paddlers and the paddles are clearly GPs and the length is striking. So perhaps you have rediscovered something here. So do I understand that you folks also struggled with flutter issues? If I had a spare $400 I'd buy one of the graphite GPs or drive to California and beg Strosaker to let me try one of his graphite blades. I keep going back to his web page about the construction and to Chuck Holst's pages about the wooden GPs and trying to figure out where I went wrong (with the flutter). I have one more almost perfect cedar 2x4 as a blank for a new paddle. It's 8' long so I could experiment with something longer. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt - you are so right on the importance of using the GP with a slight (or somewhat more than slight) angle of 'twist'. Searching for an analogy, I am reminded of how a tennis beginner hits a stroke with the racquet face vertical, while a better style imparts a slight tilt to the face (to promote top-spin) and also compensates for this tilt - to avoid driving the ball into the bottom of the net ;-) The top edge of the GP blade (in the water) should be nearer the bow by perhaps an inch, compared with the bottom edge. Listening to an early recording of Maligiaq, I was surprised at the amount of variation (in the degree of twist) that he indicated was a purely personal preference. Whatever works for you, obviously. As my technique has advanced to being unconscious, I am still aware that my 'angle of twist' can vary quickly - even mid-stroke - to give me more righting moment in clapotis. It's the opposite of a brace, in that I am able to pull up on the water (mid-stroke), because I've twisted the blade slightly (like a sub's bow fins when diving). Of course, if I need to push down at that point, that also is possible. The bracing effect (pushing down a bit, mid-stroke) is common to a euro blade in rough water, but I don't remember being able to use the momentary pull-up action. Probably my bad memory ;-) All of us (teaching ourselves to use a GP) got rid of the gross leaf-flutter action within a couple of weeks - using the twist. What remained (and puzzled the hell out of us) was a form of very audible growl. A very occasional effect. Imagine paddling over a gravel bar, 8" under the water, and scraping over it with your paddle blade mid-stroke. It would give a sort of growling crunch that you would hear as well as feel. When that happened to us, in the middle of deep water, it was a shock and a puzzle. It must be a form of cavitation - akin to the bad things that happen to a mis-sized prop on a power boat. It happens most on a GP when you put in some extra effort - accelerating hard. Making the paddle longer makes it go away. With the 2500mm, it never happens. When I had a hernia stitched up, two years ago, I made myself revert to my first paddle (2300) for a month - to reduce the strain on my abdomen. Towards the end of the recuperation, I was getting the growl back - so I don't think (could easily be wrong) that it's something you can tune out with improved technique alone. My understanding (from the museums and the books) is that the Inuit who were most concerned with speed were those from the big mid-arctic river deltas. They chased caribou swimming at 6 knots and had to catch up as well. Their boats were extra long and so were their paddles - at least a metre longer than mine - but well under 3" blade width. Perhaps they were just a very odd body shape ;-) Best Regards Paul From: MATT MARINER BROZE [mailto:marinerkayaks_at_msn.com] Sent: Saturday, 18 July 2009 08:18 To: crjungers_at_gmail.com; pdh_at_mmcl.co.nz Cc: Paddlewise Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Paddle length Narrower the paddle the higher the flutter rate and the less likely you will know where you paddle blade will be at any given time. It is sort of a falling leaf effect. Some blades of the same width flutter less radically than others and that is due to the blade shape and dihedral on the power face. Also a bigger loom will give the paddler a little better control of the flutter. I have huge hands and I do just fine with the narrow shafts (as even the thin walled graphite shafts on the standard size loom tend to be. the trick is using the paddle in such a way you hardly have to grip it but rather just push with the ball of your open hand and pull with your hooked fingers. This will cure wrist problems too since you won't be bending your wrist to follow the shaft angle change that happens during the stroke. The cure for flutter (and too tight a grip with any paddle) is to use the paddle with a wing like stroke. With a GP paddle angle the top of the blade forward so it dives down some as it enters the water and you are pulling on it and then reverses itself and climbs out ot the water toward the end of the stroke (at the first half of a flutter as it reaches its deepest point). Glide down, a single flutter at the stopping point, and glide back up and out. As long as you get the paddle on a glide path to the side (from the point of view of the paddle) as you are pulling it shouldn't flutter. With a vertical wing paddle like stroke using a Euro blade you get a lot of the benefits of the wing stroke including no flutter (without having that god awful splashy water throwing wing blade that is poor at stern draws, low braces, duffeks, bow draws, and skulling support strokes). _____ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 08:10:20 -0700 Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddle length From: crjungers_at_gmail.com To: pdh_at_mmcl.co.nz CC: marinerkayaks_at_msn.com; paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 7:48 AM, Paul Hayward <pdh_at_mmcl.co.nz> wrote: My first paddle was 2300mm (96.1") and when I went longer I added 100mm to each end - to give 2500 (98.4"). There was nothing magic (or engineered) about the 100mm, I just decided to make it 'significantly' longer and then trim it back until I found a 'sweet spot.' I've never trimmed it back and all my subsequent paddles (lighter ones, stronger ones, hollow ones, splits - I've played around some) have remained at that length. Yikes!!! That is one long paddle. But it's interesting that I have an old book about the arctic and there is one photo taken (I believe) in eastern Canada with several Inuit kayaks in a line towing a whale and using VERY long paddles. The photo was taken from a ridge above and to the side of the paddlers and the paddles are clearly GPs and the length is striking. So perhaps you have rediscovered something here. So do I understand that you folks also struggled with flutter issues? If I had a spare $400 I'd buy one of the graphite GPs or drive to California and beg Strosaker to let me try one of his graphite blades. I keep going back to his web page about the construction and to Chuck Holst's pages about the wooden GPs and trying to figure out where I went wrong (with the flutter). I have one more almost perfect cedar 2x4 as a blank for a new paddle. It's 8' long so I could experiment with something longer. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net <http://www.nwkayaking.net/> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Paul wrote: >>>>...My understanding (from the museums and the books) is that the Inuit who were most concerned with speed were those from the big mid-arctic river deltas. They chased caribou swimming at 6 knots and had to catch up as well....<<<<< I'd be very skeptical of a land animal making that kind of speed in the water. It is barely possible with human paddle power and a sleek hull for support out of the water and with a paddle that moves forward in the air (rather than hooves moving forward for the next power stroke underwater). I haven't researched this (except for polar bears) but I just can't see it. Maybe 3 knots I could believe. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Caribou were the original water skiers. This is a little known fact. They have indeed been clocked at an amazing 9 knots. Brad Quoting MATT MARINER BROZE <marinerkayaks_at_msn.com>: > Paul wrote: > > >>>>> ...My understanding (from the museums and the books) is that the >>>>> Inuit who > were most concerned with speed were those from the big mid-arctic river > deltas. They chased caribou swimming at 6 knots and had to catch up as > well....<<<<< > > > I'd be very skeptical of a land animal making that kind of speed in > the water. > It is barely possible with human paddle power and a sleek hull for > support out > of the water and with a paddle that moves forward in the air (rather than > hooves moving forward for the next power stroke underwater). I haven't > researched this (except for polar bears) but I just can't see it. Maybe 3 > knots I could believe. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> skeptical of a land animal making that kind of speed in the water Matt - this is clearly an issue where we need some first-hand research and I'm at a disadvantage - I have no caribou or reindeer within 12,000 km. My old 'land animal' friend Dave used to be able to cover 1500m in 15 minutes - and he was acknowledged as being quick - so the Caribou would have to be nearly twice that fast. Of course Dave would not have caught a Caribou on land either and he never swam with an Inuit with a lance on his tail. Would have added some spice to the pool workouts. The reports of caribou speed are well entrenched however - as a google will show. Perhaps this 6 knot business falls into the same 'traveller tales' category as the esteemed first-generation baidarka that was reputed to do amazing speeds - that we can't match. I welcome alternative explanations (to a desire for sheer speed) for the design of these early kayaks. When we look around at our various types of kayak, great length occurs only where we want great speed. Add to that the delta Inuit's unusual habit of hunting prey that could be chased down (ie: couldn't escape by diving) and it's an easy connection. Perhaps too easy ? I still think that long skinny paddles were used as a means to greater speed - where there was no penalty for sea state, brash ice, or rocky shorelines... Compromises, always compromises ! Best Regards Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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Maybe the caribou swimming speed is mixed up with speed of a caribou crossing shallow water. In water 12-18 inches deep you cannot run very well, and have to paddle--but I bet a caribou can run like crazy. And in varying depths he will just run/swim as required to escape the hunter. GaryJ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Caribou swimming speed, Caribou Eskimo kayak speed (and modern flatwater sprint kayak speed) are roughly comparable at the top end -- well over 5 mph and approaching 6 mph. Caribou are a lot more manouverable than caribou Eskimo kayaks and flatwater sprint kayaks, and lancing a caribou can not be done while maintaining a sprint, so as far as hunting caribou from kayaks goes, it is not a matter of racing the caribou, but rather of people and inukhuit cairns on shore herding the caribou from shore toward the water, and then a group of kayakers herding the swimming caribou so that the caribou get close enough for a couple of kayakers to lance them in the water, while people on shore to use bows and arrows to shoot caribou that make it to shore. The crossing places where hunts were conducted from Caribou Eskimo kayaks tended to be at either the heads or outlets of sizable lakes, such as the Baker, Schultz, Aberdeen, and Beverly, or at river broadenings on the Kazan and Thelon -- for a list of traditional hunt crossings (including the aboriginal names), have a boo at note 24 to Chapter V of Eugene Y. Arima's "A Contextual Study of the Caribou Eskimo Kayak." According to Arima, paddles used for these extremely fast caribou Eskimo kayaks varied greatly in length, but an intermediate length would be approximately 10 feet long, with 2 foot blades of about 4 inches in width, and a square shaft of about 1.5 or 2 inches in thickness with narrowings of the shaft for hand placement about 15 inches apart. And drip rings -- mustn't forget the drip rings. Arima described the forward stroke as "The blades were held at a slight angle from the perpendicular," and then went on to describe bracing. Although the Caribou Eskimo kayak and the modern flatwater sprint racing kayak are substantially similar in hull shape, and both are intended for sprinting rather than paddling over a distance, I do not know why there is such a difference in paddle blade length and width. I expect that the longer and narrower Caribou Eskimo kayak blade is a result of the advantages of a longer blade when bracing an extremely tippy boat while at the same time lancing a caribou, over the speed offered by a more vertical stroke using shorter blade/shaft combination. I also expect that the blade dimensions might be a result of the materials at hand, for spruce tend to be skinny in the Caribou Eskimo area, however, there are anomalies in the Thelon area where trees have diameters large enough to make blades wider than 4 inches. (See Kevin Timoney's "Tree and Tundra Cover Anomalies in the Subarctic Forest-Tundra of Northwestern Canada" for a survey of diameters of trees.) -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of Gary J. MacDonald Sent: July-19-09 3:28 PM Cc: 'Paddlewise' Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddle length Maybe the caribou swimming speed is mixed up with speed of a caribou crossing shallow water. In water 12-18 inches deep you cannot run very well, and have to paddle--but I bet a caribou can run like crazy. And in varying depths he will just run/swim as required to escape the hunter. GaryJ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dear Richard and all, I don't think there is any evidence to support paddle breadths being limited by the dimensions of available wood. The scarfing technology of the Inuit was first-rate given their resources, and if wider wood was desired, they would have made it wider. Labrador Inuit used paddles much narrower than the Caribou Inuit even though they had enough lumber (from local timber) to build schooners (see John Murdoch's 1892/1988 "Ethnological Results of the Point Barrow Expedition," p.332 [note1]). There is even evidence-- in the context of Greenland (which has no standing softwoods)-- that paddles became narrower during the period where lumber began to be imported from Scandinavia (Golden's 2006 "Kayaks of Greenland," p. 484-487). I'm a firm believer that Inuit kayaks and paddles appear (size & shape) the way they do only because the builders wanted them to look that way. All the best, Harvey --- On Tue, 7/21/09, Richard Culpeper <culpeper_at_tbaytel.net> wrote: From: Richard Culpeper <culpeper_at_tbaytel.net> Subject: [Paddlewise] Re.: reindeer speed in water and re.: paddle length To: "'Paddlewise'" <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Date: Tuesday, July 21, 2009, 10:04 AM ........ I also expect that the blade dimensions might be a result of the materials at hand, for spruce tend to be skinny in the Caribou Eskimo area, however, there are anomalies in the Thelon area where trees have diameters large enough to make blades wider than 4 inches. (See Kevin Timoney's "Tree and Tundra Cover Anomalies in the Subarctic Forest-Tundra of Northwestern Canada" for a survey of diameters of trees.) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Jul 21, 2009, at 1:58 PM, Harvey Golden wrote: > Dear Richard and all, I don't think there is any evidence to > support paddle > breadths being limited by the dimensions of available wood. The > scarfing > technology of the Inuit was first-rate given their resources, Martha Stewart has an on line article on how to make epoxy from whale oil. I haven't tried it yet. Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Wow, traffic on Paddlewise has really picked up. I'm having a really hard time getting any work done. On the subject of flutter, I've never been able to get my paddle blade to flutter...what am I doing wrong? I can honestly say that I'm not too worried about getting run down and trampled by a caribou while paddling (well, maybe a little). However, I would be terrified to be pursued by a polar bear or grizzly bear while on the water. Has anyone ever measured their swimming prowess and lived to tell about it? Brad Quoting Richard Culpeper <culpeper_at_tbaytel.net>: > Caribou swimming speed, Caribou Eskimo kayak speed (and modern flatwater > sprint kayak speed) are roughly comparable at the top end -- well over 5 mph > and approaching 6 mph. Caribou are a lot more manouverable than caribou > Eskimo kayaks and flatwater sprint kayaks, and lancing a caribou can not be > done while maintaining a sprint, so as far as hunting caribou from kayaks > goes, it is not a matter of racing the caribou, but rather of people and > inukhuit cairns on shore herding the caribou from shore toward the water, > and then a group of kayakers herding the swimming caribou so that the > caribou get close enough for a couple of kayakers to lance them in the > water, while people on shore to use bows and arrows to shoot caribou that > make it to shore. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A friend and his brother were chased down the length of Pickle Lake in Quetico by an amorous moose that responded to the brother's moose call. Fortunately, it turned out that two strong paddlers in a recreational canoe can out distance a swimming bull moose. -----Original Message----- I can honestly say that I'm not too worried about getting run down and trampled by a caribou while paddling (well, maybe a little). However, I would be terrified to be pursued by a polar bear or grizzly bear while on the water. Has anyone ever measured their swimming prowess and lived to tell about it? Brad *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bradford R. Crain wrote: > Wow, traffic on Paddlewise has really picked up. I'm having a really > hard time getting any work done. On the subject of flutter, I've never > been able to get my paddle blade to flutter...what am I doing wrong? > I can honestly say that I'm not too worried about getting run down and > trampled by a caribou while paddling (well, maybe a little). However, I > would be terrified to be pursued by a polar bear or grizzly bear while > on the water. Has anyone ever measured their swimming prowess and lived > to tell about it? > > Brad > Was it Nigel Denis and his wife who did the coast of Labrador some time back, and who were forced into sleeping in their kayaks as a result of a polar bear who paced them along the shore? I may (probably) have elements of the story completely wrong and ass-backwards, as it was some time ago that I read the article/web page where their trip was described. I don't recall that they actually had to try to outpaddle ... no, that's not right, polar bears don't paddle ... outpace the bear in the water. But the thought was certainly in their minds if the bear decided to swim out to where they were hovering offshore. -- Darryl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Jul 21, 2009, at 1:04 PM, Richard Culpeper wrote: > Caribou swimming speed, Caribou Eskimo kayak speed (and modern > flatwater > sprint kayak speed) are roughly comparable at the top end -- well > over 5 mph > and approaching 6 mph. FWIW, top end speed of a modern flatwater sprint kayak is in excess of 10 mph. Olympic medal winning racers will average nearly 11 mph for a kilometer. 500 meter races may be over 11.5 mph average. http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/ENG/Schedule/CF.shtml I would speculate that there were probably traditional SOF kayaks that could hit similar speeds in a short sprint. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 54 South Rd Groton, CT 06340 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Correct. I was confusing what typical sprint paddlers do with what very good sprint paddlers do -- a huge difference. Sorry. (BTW, I'm a sprint racing coach, so I have no excuse.) -----Original Message----- From: Nick Schade [mailto:nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com] Sent: July-22-09 9:25 AM To: Paddlewise Paddlewise Cc: Richard Culpeper Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Re.: reindeer speed in water and re.: paddle length On Jul 21, 2009, at 1:04 PM, Richard Culpeper wrote: > Caribou swimming speed, Caribou Eskimo kayak speed (and modern > flatwater > sprint kayak speed) are roughly comparable at the top end -- well > over 5 mph > and approaching 6 mph. FWIW, top end speed of a modern flatwater sprint kayak is in excess of 10 mph. Olympic medal winning racers will average nearly 11 mph for a kilometer. 500 meter races may be over 11.5 mph average. http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/ENG/Schedule/CF.shtml I would speculate that there were probably traditional SOF kayaks that could hit similar speeds in a short sprint. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 54 South Rd Groton, CT 06340 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't think it would be unreasonable to put a skilled kayak-based hunter in the "very good sprint paddler" category. On Jul 22, 2009, at 9:38 AM, Richard Culpeper wrote: > Correct. I was confusing what typical sprint paddlers do with what > very > good sprint paddlers do -- a huge difference. Sorry. (BTW, I'm a > sprint > racing coach, so I have no excuse.) Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 54 South Rd Groton, CT 06340 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Craig, I adopted a GP a few years to help combat some joint issues (mostly brought about by gripping too hard). I've built probably a dozen of them so far, playing around with the geometry trying to get the best balance of weight to strength while reducing flutter. The design I'm currently most in love with is based on Wolfgang Brincks "bent shaft Greenland" design _http://www.wolfgangbrinck.com/boats/paddles/greenbent.html_ (http://www.wolfgangbrinck.com/boats/paddles/greenbent.html) I've been making my own based on the description I got from his website and I must say the design works very well. It might work even better if it was built by a professional. I really like the GP paddle. It's amazing in the wind, easy on the joints and fun to use (and make). If you are looking for pure acceleration, work on mastering the sliding stroke, where the paddle is hiked out on alternate sides. You can move pretty quickly if you get good at it. About the only thing I don't like about the GP is the amount of water that it dumps in my lap and runs over my poor freezing thumbs. It's a problem in the colder weather...I end up having to wear gloves sooner than I like. Recently, I've taken to switching to a Euro paddle with cut-down blade area for the cold season. East Coast Mark **************Snoop, Lil Wayne, Lady GaGa -- land the tix you need for this summer's biggest tours. Tourtracker.com (http://www.tourtracker.com/?ncid=emlcntusmusi00000007) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 11:17 AM, <Goffma_at_aol.com> wrote: > > I adopted a GP a few years to help combat some joint issues (mostly brought > about by gripping too hard). I've built probably a dozen of them so far, > playing around with the geometry trying to get the best balance of weight > to strength while reducing flutter. So you've had flutter issues too? The design I'm currently most in love with is based on Wolfgang Brincks > "bent shaft Greenland" design These look interesting, I have to say. Certainly unique in the GP field. Thanks for the link. :) Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 7/17/2009 3:42:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, crjungers_at_gmail.com writes: >So you've had flutter issues too? Yes, the GP paddles do tend to flutter. This can be overcome to a certain extent with proper paddling technique. Top edge of blade tilted a bit forward at start of stroke to drive the blade down into the water...wait until the blade is mostly immersed before applying much force. That being said, there are still paddles that have less tendency to flutter than others. The thinner blades seem to flutter more. For a while, I was making blades that were 3" wide at the tip and 94" long. Now I've moved back to 3.5" and shortened the paddles to 90". And I'm convinced that the asymmetrical style, has less flutter than the symmetrical style. The asymmetrical style has a center of gravity that is slightly further forward than the center of the shaft at the middle of the paddle - so it has a "preferred orientation" - and this seems to apply as it is dragged through the water as well - possibly helping to combat flutter. Mark Goff **************Snoop, Lil Wayne, Lady GaGa -- land the tix you need for this summer's biggest tours. Tourtracker.com (http://www.tourtracker.com/?ncid=emlcntusmusi00000007) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hello Paul, You wrote: "All of us (teaching ourselves to use a GP) got rid of the gross leaf-flutter action within a couple of weeks - using the twist. What remained (and puzzled the hell out of us) was a form of very audible growl. A very occasional effect. Imagine paddling over a gravel bar, 8" under the water, and scraping over it with your paddle blade mid-stroke. It would give a sort of growling crunch that you would hear as well as feel. When that happened to us, in the middle of deep water, it was a shock and a puzzle. It must be a form of cavitation - akin to the bad things that happen to a mis-sized prop on a power boat. It happens most on a GP when you put in some extra effort - accelerating hard. Making the paddle longer makes it go away". Good to hear from you. I hope that you are doing well! The effect that you are describing is ventilation. I agree that it is most noticeable with a GP and produces a noise like drawing your fingernails over rough Cordura fabric or even the subtle crunch of walking on snow. The sound is an indication that you need to improve your catch as you have drawn air into the water with the blade. A common method to obtain a clean catch and eliminate the "growl" is to simply slice the (forward) canted blade into the water until it is fully buried and only then apply power. Think lock and load - lock the paddle fully into the water and only then load it up with power. With practice you should be able to sprint with the feeling that you have buried the paddle into mud on each stroke, getting a clean and powerful bite. Additionally, the "spear the salmon" technique, the lateral thrust so popular with wing paddlers, also works very well. With a good catch a GP is remarkably silent in use (much quieter than the wing I have been racing with lately.) I have a selection of information on the forward stroke with a GP on the Qajaq USA website at http://www.qajaqusa.org/Technique/Strokes.html . Best Regards, Greg Stamer Orlando, Florida http://www.gregstamer.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Greg Stamer wrote on 18 July 2009 16:06 > Good to hear from you. I hope that you are doing well! Yes thanks, we're both enjoying the (not-too-deep) depths of an Auckland winter ! We're looking forward to the weekend, with a planned 40-odd club trip leaders getting together for a self-help exercise. Everybody swots up a topic and dispenses 10 minutes worth of 'golden nuggets' for the rest of the gang to disagree with ;-) Usually have a lot of fun and occasionally learn something in spite of myself ;-) Thanks for the words of wisdom on the GP noises and the steps to correct them. I'll be taking along my shorter paddle this weekend - just to see if I can pin down what I'm trying to describe. I'll also see if I can implement your suggestions with enough cunning to make the 'little' paddle behave for me. Natasha & I are in the thick of the group planning for our every-two-year Coastbusters Sea Kayaking Symposium in Feb 2010. So if you know anyone who deserves a nice warm break - to banish the Northern Hemisphere mid-winter blues - point them at the Coastbusters.org.nz website. We do work on extending a warm welcome; but it's only fair to warn prospective attendees that (on past performance) there seems to be a high risk of them developing the desire to come back and do more paddling in the neighbourhood ;-) Best Regards Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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