While almost a novice with GP (I do own one!) I have spent most of my youth rowing, and those effects - the flutter and the gurgle - I remember well. The odd gurgle is not cavitation, but air being sucked down along the shaft, due to too enthusiastic paddling, or rowing. Ease off a little and it disappears. It destroys power and is annoying! The flutter is also pretty well known - if the foil is very thin it will bend along the edges as power is applied, and any kind of foil that lack stiffness and is badly balanced will flutter, no question about that. A helicopter rotor blade is a typical example: Before carbon could create blades as stiff as you wanted, the only cure was to add weights along the leading edge of the blades, as with any foil (at subsonic speeds), the center of lift is at approx. 25% chord, that is 25% of the width of the blade, so that's where the center of gravity, and torsion, also have to be, unless brute force and extreme stiffness can be applied. Sadly a GP can't be designed that way, as the blade is symmetric, so it needs to be stiff, very stiff! The thinner the blades, the more careful the design has to be to avoid flutter - remeber that a yuloh, the Chinese type of sculling oar, has sharp rectangular edges, thus is fairly thick at the edges, most likely to avoid flutter. I bet an advanced wing paddle also is very well balanced along the shaft, again to avoid flutter. It is actually better to have too much weight forward the torsional axle, as that acts as active anti-flutter device, while perfectly balanced foils are not prone to flutter, but if they somehow do start to flutter (say after banging them into a stone), the flutter will not be violent, nor accelerating. Good Night! Tord -- Be Yourself _at_ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My first Greenland paddle fluttered the first time I used it, but not afterwards. I must have unconsciously adjusted my paddling style until the fluttering stopped, because when I loaned the paddle to other kayakers, it still fluttered for them. It's not necessarily the paddle that's at fault. Chuck Holst __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4259 (20090719) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On July 2009 06:23, Chuck Holst said > It's not necessarily the paddle that's at fault. Chuck Your response got me thinking and I re-measured myself and re-read the info I started with - five years ago (your 'Making a Greenland Paddle' pdf and John Heath's 1987 Sea Kayaker article). I have always remembered that both of you refer to the two options of adding either the short or the long cubit (elbow to wrist or fingertip) to the span. Originally, I couldn't decide which way to go - so I split the difference. My two measurements were 2200 and 2400 - so I used 2300 for the paddle. That may help to explain why I eventually settled on a longer paddle. For paddles I've made - or people I've advised - I've always started with the arms-only measurement - instead of the standing 'height to fingertip" one. The contribution made by leg length just seems less relevant. I usually get people to do both - and I've found that about 50% of people differ noticeably (say by 50mm or more). (I'm 2350.) While Harvey Golden has details (in Kayaks of Greenland) of two paddles made for people whose dimensions we presumably know (John Heath & Maligiaq Padilla), he says little about the paddle-human 'fit' - and speculates little on the reasons why paddles might be sized as they are. Have you fine-tuned your own preference - relative to the anthropomorphic dimensions you first settled on ? Also, has anyone any comments about the shouldered or un-shouldered GP styles ? (From West or East Greenland, according to Chuck's article.) I've always liked the un-shouldered, while most others (in NZ) seem to prefer the shouldered style. Best Regards Paul Hayward, Auckland, NewZealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I based my paddle-making instructions on an article by John Heath that appeared many years ago in Sea Kayaker Magazine. My main contribution was to devise the (literal) guide lines to help people achieve a consistent shape and symmetry. Otherwise, I pretty much followed Heath. Heath himself preferred the shorter paddle, and I followed his example mainly for the following reasons: (1) The best quality cedar two-by-fours I could find locally came only in 84-inch lengths and a much longer length. The shorter length was more economical. (2) I very early taught myself the sliding stroke, which turns a Greenland paddle into what I like to call a variable-length paddle. When you use the sliding stroke, the exact length doesn't really matter all that much. (3) It works for me. Also, since I wrote those instructions, I have learned from Greg Stamer and others that Greenlanders are not all that particular about paddle shapes, paddle proportions, or the forward stroke. Their attitude seems to mostly be: "Whatever works for you." "When you are paddling a kayak you keep on passing the paddle to and fro in your hands so that as much of the blade as possible is under water at each stroke. My gloves were brand new and had been copiously soaked in blubber to make them waterproof. This made them very sticky, and as I passed the paddle through my hands it would sometimes stick, thus breaking the rhythm of the motion and almost upsetting me. Once this happened at the same moment as a wave hit me, and before I had time to do anything about it I was upside down. I came up again at once, without much difficulty, using the storm roll which brings one up in a steady position." -- F. Spencer Chapman, Watkins' Last Expedition, Chatto and Windus, London. 1934 Regarding shouldered paddles, it's largely a matter of personal preference. Both types were used in Greenland. However, having paddled in sub-freezing water, I can say from experience that when a paddle loom is covered by a sheath of ice, shoulders make it much easier to get a secure grip on the paddle. Also, as long as you are paddling, that part of the blade that is immersed in water tends to stay ice-free, so the sliding stroke, in which you grip the blade, is also more secure. BTW, regarding blade width, some people make their blades much wider than I do, maybe because their hands are larger (though I wear large-size gloves). However, because I like a secure grip near the end of the blade, I always make sure it is narrow enough for a comfortable grip. For me, the maximum width is about 3-1/4 inches. I haven't seen a documented native Greenland paddle that is over 3 inches, and most are even narrower: about 2-3/4 to 2-7/8 inches. Regarding extra-long paddles of around 96 - 106 inches, as seen in the film Nanook of the North, as far as I know, they were used only outside Greenland, and never with the sliding stroke. IMO, though they are Inuit paddles, they are not Greenland paddles. Betty Ketter, a local canoe outfitter and the wife and mother of canoe racers, once told me that everyone takes a 52-inch [bentshaft] canoe paddle, because when people differ in height, the difference is usually in leg length rather than in torso length. A gross generalization, but it worked most of the time. Chuck Holst __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4262 (20090720) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Chuck Holst said on 21 July 2009 14:08 > from experience that when a paddle loom is covered by > a sheath of ice, shoulders make it much easier to get > a secure grip on the paddle Haven't yet had the opportunity to paddle in icy conditions - but this sounds reasonable. I spent the first 30 years of my life near Montreal - so I do appreciate ice ;-) > haven't seen a documented native Greenland paddle > that is over 3 inches My only easily-available reference here is Harvey Golden's Kayaks of Greenland. He reviews 78 Northern paddles, some 72 of which appear to be designated 'Greenland' as opposed to 'Polar Greenland'. Of the 72, a full 31 are more than 3" wide. Of the 72, one fifth are 3.5" wide or more. Note that HG has used the width of the paddle blade and not the width of the (often greater) bone tips. > Regarding extra-long paddles of around 96 - 106 inches... > though they are Inuit paddles, they are not Greenland paddles. Again from the 72 KoG paddles, the long ones are 98", 94", 92" (2 of), 91" (2 of) and on down. (Just for easy reference, these are KoG plates 31, 52, 65, 7, 55 & 33). The longest is classified as mid-west-coast Greenland - circa 1926. The next longest was made in 1959 for John Heath - and I don't know how large John was. Given the stature of the Inuit I met in the 1960's and references (in film & print) to earlier generations of Inuit, I believe that few of them topped 6'. Without getting into the arm-span versus height argument, I conjecture that the range of their body sizes (and hence their paddle sizes) was historically somewhat smaller than ours is now. So I would argue that you might want to 'up' the lower limit of your 'extra-long' paddle range a little - especially if we try and build Greenland-style paddles to suit our larger body sizes. I accept completely the 'what works for you' approach. My interest is in finding out what that means - and exploring the 'whys'. I have learned the sliding stroke and, for a while, carried a very short storm paddle (instead of my old euro-split). Made myself paddle home with it a few times too, just to see what it felt like. Frankly, in normal wind speeds, I found it a bit of a pain. OK for an emergency; but I think I'd sit on a beach somewhere and carve a new GP with my pocketknife, before I'd complete a multi-day trip with a storm paddle and sliding stroke. That being said, I do enjoy watching someone else do it ;-) Best Regards Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Jul 21, 2009, at 9:24 AM, Paul Hayward wrote: > I accept completely the 'what works for you' approach. > My interest is in finding out what that means - and exploring the > 'whys'. For me, one of the most compelling reason for the general form of Greenland style paddles is reliability. A long, narrow, relatively thick (for its width) paddle blade is much less likely to crack, split or break than a short, wide relatively thin blade. While it is possible to make a short, wide, thin blade out of wood using primitive tools, it is very difficult to make one that will not split at the first impact with something. A wide blade that is not protected by a waterproof finish will warp, check and eventually split even without hitting anything. A long, narrow, thick blade will generally last a lot longer and is much less likely to split. The longer blade also distributes paddling loads over a wider area where a short, wide blade will have a stress concentration at the base of the blade where the blade necks down to the shaft. For a subsistence hunter with limited access to quality paddling- making materials, reliability alone would probably be sufficient reason by itself to settle on a paddle form. Nick Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 54 South Rd Groton, CT 06340 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 7:21 AM, Nick Schade <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com>wrote: > > For a subsistence hunter with limited access to quality paddling-making > materials, reliability alone would probably be sufficient reason by itself > to settle on a paddle form. > Nick > There has to be a lot of sense in this. One of the most intriguing things about the GP form of paddle is that it had its genesis in a part of the world where there are damn few trees. I don't even recall seeing a lot of driftwood the summer I spent flying in and out of Greenland's west coast drilling for oil in the Davis Strait. Harvey Golden says that there was a lot of innovation in Greenlander's kayaks over the last 200 years. Which corresponds neatly to the Europeans discovery of the cod fishing grounds of the Grand Banks. The use of the dory to fish for cod must have created a windfall (no pun intended) of new material as the planking of those small boats started showing up on S and W Greenland shores. It would be interesting to be able to go back in time and catalog what was available on those shores and correlate that with what the Inuit did with their designs. Whatever it was it was almost certainly, as Nick implies, pragmatic and driven by reality. No marketing departments around to tell them what they reallly wanted. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Since subsistence hunters managed to subsist, perhaps they had access to driftwood. Just a shot in the dark...no knowledge implied. Brad Quoting Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com>: > On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 7:21 AM, Nick Schade > <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com>wrote: > >> >> For a subsistence hunter with limited access to quality paddling-making >> materials, reliability alone would probably be sufficient reason by itself >> to settle on a paddle form. >> Nick >> > > There has to be a lot of sense in this. One of the most intriguing things > about the GP form of paddle is that it had its genesis in a part of the > world where there are damn few trees. I don't even recall seeing a lot of > driftwood the summer I spent flying in and out of Greenland's west coast > drilling for oil in the Davis Strait. > > Harvey Golden says that there was a lot of innovation in Greenlander's > kayaks over the last 200 years. Which corresponds neatly to the Europeans > discovery of the cod fishing grounds of the Grand Banks. The use of the dory > to fish for cod must have created a windfall (no pun intended) of new > material as the planking of those small boats started showing up on S and W > Greenland shores. > > It would be interesting to be able to go back in time and catalog what was > available on those shores and correlate that with what the Inuit did with > their designs. > > Whatever it was it was almost certainly, as Nick implies, pragmatic and > driven by reality. No marketing departments around to tell them what they > reallly wanted. > > Craig Jungers > Moses Lake, WA > www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Paul Hayward wrote: <snip> > > Given the stature of the Inuit I met in the 1960's and references (in film & > print) to earlier generations of Inuit, I believe that few of them topped > 6'. Without getting into the arm-span versus height argument, I conjecture > that the range of their body sizes (and hence their paddle sizes) was > historically somewhat smaller than ours is now. Not only are the Inuit shorter than Caucasians and many other races, but they tend to have proportionately shorter (and stockier) arms and legs. So an average Inuit paddler, of say, 5' 4", would have the arm length of of a Caucasian of perhaps 5' 2". When I was much younger (just after the last of the dinosaurs died off), I remember hearing the theory that the shorter and stockier proportions were to conserve body heat. I have no idea if this was ever a "real" theory, nor whether it might still be in vogue. I do know that the build of the Inuit allowed them to do some of the gymnastics that tall slender Caucasians can only aspire to. I think in particular of the trick of being held up in a horizontal position by your outstretched arms and seeing how long you can stay there. -- Darryl > > So I would argue that you might want to 'up' the lower limit of your > 'extra-long' paddle range a little - especially if we try and build > Greenland-style paddles to suit our larger body sizes. > > I accept completely the 'what works for you' approach. > My interest is in finding out what that means - and exploring the 'whys'. > <snip> > > Best Regards > Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My theory is that the Inuit were much smarter than us. I offer as evidence the fact that they can subsist on whale blubber and seal meat, while we cannot survive for long even with the copious availability of the whopper, large fries, and a coke. Brad Crain Quoting Darryl Johnson <Darryl.Johnson_at_sympatico.ca>: > Paul Hayward wrote: > > <snip> >> >> Given the stature of the Inuit I met in the 1960's and references (in film & >> print) to earlier generations of Inuit, I believe that few of them topped >> 6'. Without getting into the arm-span versus height argument, I conjecture >> that the range of their body sizes (and hence their paddle sizes) was >> historically somewhat smaller than ours is now. > > Not only are the Inuit shorter than Caucasians and many other races, > but they tend to have proportionately shorter (and stockier) arms > and legs. So an average Inuit paddler, of say, 5' 4", would have the > arm length of of a Caucasian of perhaps 5' 2". > > When I was much younger (just after the last of the dinosaurs died > off), I remember hearing the theory that the shorter and stockier > proportions were to conserve body heat. I have no idea if this was > ever a "real" theory, nor whether it might still be in vogue. > > I do know that the build of the Inuit allowed them to do some of the > gymnastics that tall slender Caucasians can only aspire to. I think > in particular of the trick of being held up in a horizontal position > by your outstretched arms and seeing how long you can stay there. > > -- > Darryl > >> >> So I would argue that you might want to 'up' the lower limit of your >> 'extra-long' paddle range a little - especially if we try and build >> Greenland-style paddles to suit our larger body sizes. >> >> I accept completely the 'what works for you' approach. >> My interest is in finding out what that means - and exploring the 'whys'. >> > <snip> >> >> Best Regards >> Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It's ironic that one of the most exciting branches of modern sea kayaking is the return to its arctic roots. Even though I'm annoyed by the way my GP performs, there are enough really good paddlers around who use them to make me realize that it's mostly me and not the paddle. Although, since I built the paddle, it's probably the paddle too; at least in my case. <grin> I didn't realize that Chuck Holst's classic .pdf about carving a GP was based on an article John Heath did in SK. But I am so glad he wrote it. The references to that .pdf are all over the Internet. I'd call that a major achievment. And not a week goes by that I don't go to Harvey Golden's web site, either. I just wish I had a high ceiling to keep kayaks. My wfie won't let me pile them against the dining room wall any more. When I returned to sea kayaking after a couple decades of sailing and then white water kayaking I was disappointed to discover that there were, basically, two forms of sea kayaks: the expedition form with huge carrying capacity; and the British form with very little initial stability (somehow Mariners had escaped me). At that point I thought that the greenland kayaks were simply an even less stable paddling platform. It took quite a while for me to learn to appreciate that the skin-on-frame model is so versatile that you can make almost anything you want for not very much money and without putting in years of time. How cool is that? Even better is that we don't actually have to be in one camp (SOF, stitch-and-glue, strip-built) or the other (Brit boats, expedition boats, Mariners) but we can mix and match to our heart's content. Brian Schulz even showed me how he can built a SOF boat to the performance he wants. He's built a classic modern surfing kayaking in SOF as well as an almost perfect copy of a Mariner Coaster. I didn't realize how many people are intrigued by SOF boats until I started hauling the F-1 around and going out to fast food outlets for breakfast. I've watched dozens of people just walk around that boat which, because it's mounted high on my pickup, clearly shows that it's a ribbed frame with a fabric coating. If I come out while they're looking they always have a bunch of questions and always start out with, "Did you build that kayak?" Jeez... I dunno where I'm going with this and now breakfast is ready and my wife is tapping her foot. I think I just want to say "thanks" to Chuck Holst and Harvey Golden and all the rest for hanging in there and keeping these forms in front of us. And also to the various teachers who are holding workshops where you don't just learn a skill but you go home with a new kayak. It's great to see this exchange of ideas being batted around too. Uh oh... I gotta go eat. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Paul, I prefer un-shouldered GPs. I feel no need to know exactly where my hands are on the paddle. Often with weather pushing me around, I use the paddle partially extended to one side for long periods of time. Without the shoulders in the way, it's easier for me to grip the paddle partially extended like that for long periods. Un-shouldered paddles are lighter. Also, without shoulders, the flex in the paddle is more even and it is less likely to break. Don't think un-shouldered paddles weren't used traditional either. Both shouldered and un-shouldered GPs were used traditionally. My GP specifications: http://www.rollordrown.com/kayak/woodgp.html Duane Southern California --- On Sun, 7/19/09, Paul Hayward <pdh_at_mmcl.co.nz> wrote: > Also, has anyone any comments about the shouldered or > un-shouldered GP > styles ? (From West or East Greenland, according to Chuck's > article.) I've > always liked the un-shouldered, while most others (in NZ) > seem to prefer the > shouldered style. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Duane Strosaker said on 21 July 2009 09:49 > I prefer un-shouldered GPs. You're a good man to have on our team ;-) I haven't accumulated enough evidence to be convinced of the [East Greenland = un-shouldered] versus [West Greenland = shouldered] distinction that Chuck made in his article. From what Harvey said in his book, the paddle story is (if possible) more baffling than the kayak one - with even more 'personal preference' allowed. I haven't read Brian Nystrom's book - it's on my list. I had originally believed that the GP (as we somewhat know it today) was the product of 10,000 years of product development. I was intrigued to read Harvey's conclusion that there has been very major development in the past 400 and even 200 years. The old dog has learnt some now tricks. On your web page, www.rollordrown.com/kayak/woodgp.html would you consider adding an indication as to whether the 86" is span plus fingertip-cubit or span plus wrist-cubit. I am never sure which anthropomorphic recommendation people are working to - and it can make 8" difference. Best Regards Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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