I just heard that Shaun White, who took the gold medal for the half-pipe at the Vancouver Olympics, spent yesterday morning taking a trip in a sea kayak. Does anyone know who took him out? Are there any photos? There should be a story in there somewhere. Nothing like a paddle to get you relaxed and ready for competing at the Olympic level. LOL. :) Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
13 Celsius yesterday, full-on sunshine - not bad for winter here in syrup-sucking Canada. A gold-medal day for kayaking for sure - which is all I care about. Let us know if you get any details. Some folks got out with Freya, the "Hoff" last Saturday after her Victoria presentation. I rather think we are going to see more 18 foot fast sea kayaks in the future...more wing paddle use and more Olympic-style, performance-oriented paddle strokes. Doug L I just heard that Shaun White, who took the gold medal for the half-pipe at the Vancouver Olympics, spent yesterday morning taking a trip in a sea kayak. Does anyone know who took him out? Are there any photos? There should be a story in there somewhere. Nothing like a paddle to get you relaxed and ready for competing at the Olympic level. LOL. :) Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 7:32 AM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > 13 Celsius yesterday, full-on sunshine - not bad for winter here in > syrup-sucking Canada. A gold-medal day for kayaking for sure - which is all > I care about. Let us know if you get any details. I suspect it might have been one of the WCP group; maybe MikeC who was one of the three paddlers featured in that opening video. > Some folks got out with > Freya, the "Hoff" last Saturday after her Victoria presentation. I rather > think we are going to see more 18 foot fast sea kayaks in the future...more > wing paddle use and more Olympic-style, performance-oriented paddle > strokes. > I rather think you're right on all those points. Not that I have anything against any of those; after all, I do paddle a 17'11" Mariner II which is close enough to 18' to count... and is an FSK according to at least one Seattle ratings guide. Oh.. and I have a wing, too. Not so sure about the performance-oriented stroe part though. Quite a few Paddlewisers are enthusiastic enough about fast kayaks as it is but that enthusiasm should grow as Freya makes more paddlers try to keep up. Speaking of wing paddles: Matt Broze has a wonderful way of grounding things in logic. One of the things Matt triggered in me is a question of whether a "wing" paddle actually works like a wing; with low and high pressures, etc. Since water is, for all practical purposes, incompressible, the idea of low and high pressure should only be considered in terms of depth. I have read accounts that a wing paddle will move a boat 3 or 4 inches farther for the same stroke than a "regular" paddle. But since the "wing stroke" is different than a normal forward stroke it's possible that it's the stroke that accounts for much of the difference and not the shape of the wing paddle at all.. This struck a chord because I've noticed that since I have become accustomed to the wing stroke (which, for those of you who may not know what it is, is a high-angle stroke that starts close to the hull forward and sweeps out away from the hull in the final part of the stroke) I have noticed that if I want to accelerate using the Lightning paddle (a Euro paddle without a wing shape) I adopt a wing stroke automatically. Matt has suggested that I take the Lightning paddle and use it in a wing stroke over a course and then take the wing paddle and cover the same course and compare the results. Since I live on a lake where my workout paddles cover pretty much similar water day-over-day, this would be pretty easy to do. All I have to do is get into shape to cover the course (after a winter of mostly holding down a sofa). Our weather here in the summer is pretty dull which would remove one of the variables. My plan is to make several paddles over several days keeping as much as possible identical except the paddles. The course, the time of start, the boat, the gear, etc. would all be the same. Only the paddles would change. I would have to keep the strokes as similar as possible in order to be able to quantify whether the wing is really faster under similar conditions. I'm going to wait for decent weather in the 70s and for the lake to reach its summer pool elevation to do this. My wife can help with timing and support in the summer (she gets summers offI'll keep the list updated. It should be interesting. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig said : >take the Lightning paddle and use it in a wing stroke over a >course and then take the wing paddle and cover the same course >and compare the results This approach was my final test of the Greenland paddle (GP), as I contemplated abandoning the Euro I had previously used. I had spent a month 'coming up to speed' and had been doing laps of a local lake after work (to build fitness for an annual race - another story, not really relevant). Anyway, I found I was with a second or two per lap - which was greater than my margin of error - so I retired the Euro blade and embraced the Wood Side. It was only a year or so later, when I thought a bit more about it, that I realised that my (very non-Epic) sea kayak would probably still lap the lake at that speed - with me driving it - if I used anything from a wooden spoon up to the latest carbon wing... I was effectively at 'hull speed' for my energy output and pretty much into the vertical part of its energy-speed curve. Ever since I built one of Nick's Mystery (racing) sea-kayaks, I've been meaning to re-familiarise myself with the now-dusty Euro blade and see if I can push that boat (leaves an Epic for dead ;-) any faster - with what _should_ be a faster paddle. I mean if it's not a faster paddle, why are 90% of the worlds' sea kayakers using it ? Long ramble Craig, but consider whether you can get that boat to go any faster without an outboard. Best Regards Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 10:06 PM, Paul Hayward <pdh_at_mmcl.co.nz> wrote: > > Long ramble Craig, but consider whether you can get that boat to go any > faster without an outboard. > Very appropriate thoughts, Paul. If you can paddle a kayak at hull speed with a 2x4 there's not much use buying a wing paddle. Unless you want light weight, of course. I'll be using my kevlar Mariner II kayak which is 17'11" long and 21.5" in beam. I'll probably have to put some weight in the bow to compensate for the fact that I don't have a sliding seat in that boat but that's ok. I like the Mariner sliding seat because I can push the seat fully back to the rear cockpit rim to enter (my legs don't bend as well as they used to) and then move it forward for correct balance. Without a sliding seat I have to keep the backband at the back of the cockpit and then moving forward is an issue. So weight is a solution. Speaking of sliding seats, I don't suppose anyone out there has a Mariner sliding seat they no longer need, huh? I'd be in the market unless it's an Escape seat (which is the wrong shape). Matt Broze doesn't have any (I've checked) and the only other solution is to lay one up. At any rate I think I have enough room in the speed curve of that boat to make an appropriate test. But thanks for the thought. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: > Speaking of wing paddles: Matt Broze has a wonderful way of grounding things > in logic. One of the things Matt triggered in me is a question of whether a > "wing" paddle actually works like a wing; with low and high pressures, etc. > Since water is, for all practical purposes, incompressible, the idea of low > and high pressure should only be considered in terms of depth. Hunh? Hydrofoils make use of high and low pressure to produce lift. The Bernoulli effect is operable in water and other incompressible fluids. Why would any paddle not produce high and low pressures in water? Just because there is only an extremely tiny change in volume when water is compressed does not mean the pressure change is small. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofoil -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 8:08 AM, Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com> wrote: > > Speaking of wing paddles: Matt Broze has a wonderful way of grounding > things > in logic. One of the things Matt triggered in me is a question of whether a > "wing" paddle actually works like a wing; with low and high pressures, etc. > Since water is, for all practical purposes, incompressible, the idea of low > and high pressure should only be considered in terms of depth. Uh, Craig, that makes no sense. For flow purposes, air is also considered to be incompressible too - until you get to near sonic speed flows. Pressure has nothing to do with compressibility. Bernoulli still applies - flows will create pressures. Let me just point out that no paddle can produce any thrust at all without a difference in pressure. It's all about how much pressure differential, and the efficiency of creating it. I'm sure you know this, but sometimes almost all of us need a reminder. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: But since the "wing stroke" is different than a normal forward stroke it's possible that it's the stroke that accounts for much of the difference and not the shape of the wing paddle at all.. Me: When I was a sprint racer, starting in 1967, there were no composite boats or paddles and the paddles were traditional spoon-bladed Liminat or Hungarian knock-offs. Nearly everyone had a 90 feather as well. Many, many of us used what is now called a 'wing paddle stroke' with those old paddles. The torso-involved part dictated the catch and beginning of the stroke. How high or low the pushing arm would be was a big variable, with the relatively higher punchers being the 'wingers.' The end of the stroke, however, was one of the defining characteristics of the different styles. My technique, and I was not nearly alone in this, was to end the in-water part of the stroke out about a foot from the hull. No one ever suggested doing this, it just felt natural. Twenty years later, when I was teaching, other instructors would crab that I was paddling too far away from the boat. So I watched what my paddle was doing in the water and noticed that, by winging out at the end of the stroke, I was keeping the blade in the pressure wave (wake) coming off the hull near the cockpit. When I kept the blade close to the boat, or even further out from the boat,out away from the wave, I felt tippy and slow. My theory, based only my own imagination, is that keeping the blade in my wake was putting the blade in more 'solid' (if that's the right word) water than if the blade were closer in. This paddle path in the water also was a straight line. Following the curve of the hull would result in an arc for the path and inhibit torso rotation. I have watched for this in other paddlers who do not use a wing paddle and I find that many of the very best place their paddles the same way. All this to say that I am convinced that the wing paddle stroke is surely a good one for many of us, and it was being used decades before the first wing paddle, but the wing paddle is the best tool for going fast. Those sprint team guys wouldn't be using them otherwise, I don't think. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: > I just heard that Shaun White, who took the gold medal for the half-pipe at > the Vancouver Olympics, spent yesterday morning taking a trip in a sea > kayak. Does anyone know who took him out? Are there any photos? There should > be a story in there somewhere. Nothing like a paddle to get you relaxed and > ready for competing at the Olympic level. LOL. :) > Like Shaun White has a hard time relaxing. Did you see him texting on his iPhone in between runs in the half-pipe finals? I suspect he may have gone kayaking with the same outfitter that I went to when I was in Vancouver a couple of years ago. If so, he may have gone out without a guide. -- John Fereira Cornell University Twitter: _at_john_fereira Google Wave: fereira_at_googlewave.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi John, On Thursday, February 18, 2010, at 6:43:28 AM PST, you wrote: > I suspect he may have gone kayaking with the same outfitter that I > went to when I was in Vancouver a couple of years ago. If so, he may > have gone out without a guide. >From this article: http://sports.espn.go.com/olympics/winter/2010/snowboarding/columns/story?id=4923853 "So, instead of logging a few more hours practicing a run he already knew he could land, White and nine of his friends, including U.S. snowboarding coach Bud Keene, rented sea kayaks at Horseshoe Bay in West Vancouver. Instead of worrying over his run, White and his friends spent the evening before the biggest contest of his life not talking and not thinking about snowboarding." -- Melissa *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 4:49 PM, Melissa Reese <willkayakforfood_at_gmx.com>wrote: > > From this article: > > > http://sports.espn.go.com/olympics/winter/2010/snowboarding/columns/story?id=4923853 > > "So, instead of logging a few more hours practicing a run he already > knew he could land, White and nine of his friends, including U.S. > snowboarding coach Bud Keene, rented sea kayaks at Horseshoe Bay in > West Vancouver. Instead of worrying over his run, White and his > friends spent the evening before the biggest contest of his life not > talking and not thinking about snowboarding." > > -- > Melissa > > Thanks Melissa. :) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Craig, On Friday, February 19, 2010, at 9:27:39 PM PST, you wrote: > Thanks Melissa. :) It was only natural that you'd hijack your own thread, but I thought someone should still try to discover the truth about Shaun White's extracurricular paddling adventure. Just because. :) -- Melissa *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This would be a natural place to implement a paired-T test. We'll need about 100 randomly selected sets of twins, and assign one person from each pair to the wing paddle, and the other twin to the competing paddle. When you get done, pass me the data and I'll run it on my computer. Looking forward to this scientific experiment. BRC Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Who Took Shaun White Sea Kayaking? > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 7:32 AM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > > Speaking of wing paddles: Matt Broze has a wonderful way of grounding > things > in logic. One of the things Matt triggered in me is a question of whether > a > "wing" paddle actually works like a wing; with low and high pressures, > etc. > Since water is, for all practical purposes, incompressible, the idea of > low > and high pressure should only be considered in terms of depth. I have read > accounts that a wing paddle will move a boat 3 or 4 inches farther for the > same stroke than a "regular" paddle. But since the "wing stroke" is > different than a normal forward stroke it's possible that it's the stroke > that accounts for much of the difference and not the shape of the wing > paddle at all.. > > This struck a chord because I've noticed that since I have become > accustomed > to the wing stroke (which, for those of you who may not know what it is, > is > a high-angle stroke that starts close to the hull forward and sweeps out > away from the hull in the final part of the stroke) I have noticed that if > I > want to accelerate using the Lightning paddle (a Euro paddle without a > wing > shape) I adopt a wing stroke automatically. > > Matt has suggested that I take the Lightning paddle and use it in a wing > stroke over a course and then take the wing paddle and cover the same > course > and compare the results. Since I live on a lake where my workout paddles > cover pretty much similar water day-over-day, this would be pretty easy to > do. All I have to do is get into shape to cover the course (after a winter > of mostly holding down a sofa). > > Our weather here in the summer is pretty dull which would remove one of > the > variables. My plan is to make several paddles over several days keeping as > much as possible identical except the paddles. The course, the time of > start, the boat, the gear, etc. would all be the same. Only the paddles > would change. I would have to keep the strokes as similar as possible in > order to be able to quantify whether the wing is really faster under > similar > conditions. > > I'm going to wait for decent weather in the 70s and for the lake to reach > its summer pool elevation to do this. My wife can help with timing and > support in the summer (she gets summers offI'll keep the list updated. It > should be interesting. > > > Craig Jungers > Moses Lake, WA > www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:32 AM, Bradford R. Crain <crainb_at_pdx.edu> wrote: > This would be a natural place to implement a paired-T test. > We'll need about 100 randomly selected sets of twins, and assign > one person from each pair to the wing paddle, and the other twin > to the competing paddle. When you get done, pass me the data and > I'll run it on my computer. Looking forward to this scientific > experiment. > Just the thought of trying to find 100 sets of twins willing (or able) to paddle a kayak with anything, much less a wing paddle, makes me want to take a nap. I prefer my test because it will apply to me. You will know, once I publish the results, whether or not to ask me not to bring my wing paddle on any trips. You won't know whether you should use a wing paddle but you can find out by asking Freya. :) Actually, a nap sounds good. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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