Doug wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>Probably the Mariner Express is an example of a sea kayak with the best seakindly attributes possible, but not as good in rock gardens as the Coaster and not as able to deliver as the Mariner II for distance travel, yet nevertheless a nice compromise in length, gear capacity, stability, responsive maneuverability, and yes, seakindlyness. I'm surprised more paddlers didn't pick up on this model, though I don't have the sales figures. I'm hoping to try one out one day now that I probably can't fit an Elan. Matt and Cam used to advertize that their kayaks were only for the few - implying only the discriminating paddler need apply. As not all their models caught on worldwide, either Matt and Cam struck a brilliant marketing campaign slogan with those adds or the designs really didn't deliver and therefore only a few paddlers bought in. There is certainly enough evidence these days from paddlers thrice or more removed from directly dealing with the Broze brothers, that we know there is truth to the claims of Mariner performance. So perhaps there was some other issue (lack of bulkheads or something, I don't know). <<<<<<<<< Thank you Doug. Why didn't you say these nice things when we were still in business? Maybe we would still be in business. I'm joking. We retired because we needed the rest and could afford to do so. We sold about as many kayaks as we could handle while running a store (and usually doing most of the finishing work like installing seats and decklines ourselves, often late at night. I used to joke that we were our own kayakmaker's late night elves. Until the Dot.com and Boeing busts of the early 2000's we hardly had time for a vacation. To sell more kayaks we would have had to sell wholesale (and therefore sell a whole lot more kayaks to make the same income) and trust that dealers would do an adequate job of explaining the kayaks to potential customers (when we already knew better that most wouldn't). Because our kayaks were so different adequate representation wasn't very likely except in a very few specialty shops. During the early to mid-1980's some of our hull designs were sold wholesale by our builder outside WA and OR. We received a small royalty that amounted to about one eighth of what we would earn if we sold the kayak to that customer directly. This arrangement also limited then number of kayaks that we could sell ourselves, and delayed delivery to our own customers, because wholesale kayaks were coming out of the same molds as the ones we sold direct. I brought this up because I once was down in San Diego after kayaking in Baja (and maybe picking up a trailer load of Seda kayaks on the way back). I went into a sporting goods store and saw a Coaster among the kayaks that were for sale there. I asked a clerk for their expert on kayaks and when he arrived I asked him if he could tell me about the Coaster model they had. His response was: "This kayak over here is better, its got a rudder." But the last straw for us was the quality issues that were occurring with kayaks sold wholesale that we never saw (but heard about later from the customers that bought them at retail stores). Had we seen them, those kayaks would have either been sold as cosmetic seconds or gone back to the builder for repair or destruction had the problem been functional. When the kayaks sold wholesale started having their cockpit rims fall out because of a change the manufacturer did to our kayaks (after I specifically told him not to make that change to our kayaks and that I wouldn't even consider making it until he had at least a year of doing it with his own kayaks with absolutely no problems. Well, none of the kayaks we received and sold had glued in coamings but all the kayaks he made for wholesale (ours and his own) did. The debacle ended up costing our hull builder more than $30,000, hurt our reputation as well as his, and we ended all wholesale sales of our kayaks from then on. At least our builder owned up to the problem and took responsibility for his customer's kayak repairs. Some kayak companies solution to poor quality construction was to blame their quality problems on "shipping damage". That made shipping kayak an even bigger problem for every kayak dealer an even bigger problem than it already was. All the more reason to sell locally. Until business slowed way down after the Dot.com/Boeing bust (putting our major Seattle competitor into bankruptcy) we rarely even accepted international sales. We lost a lot of sales because most of our models were not available with a large bow hatch. So that helped keep sales down to more local customers we could discuss the issues with (that were far easier to serve anyway) and to customers expert enough or strong enough to resist the demands by the British influenced governing bodies and kayak paddling groups and stores insistence that it wasn't a sea kayak unless it had compartments (see the "Flotation" manual on our website for a discussion). Later even a day hatch seemed essential for a kayak sold in a retail store. Personally except for a few (like on the latest Illusions) I think they are a huge waste of storage space. If we weren't already selling more kayaks than we wanted to (and weren't then yet ready to retire) we would have probably had to impose a bow hatch and all its attendant problems (see the above mentioned "Flotation" manual) on our customers. The only other reasonable choice to limit sales was to raise prices. We had to do that several times during the boom 1990's to slow down sales to levels we could handle (and operate on four to five hours of sleep a night). To get to more specifics about what Doug wondered about. The Coaster was our best selling model (also the least expensive) until the new Elan model stole some of its smaller paddler's wing (of that model's many market niches). To think, Cam designed and built it just for himself and didn't care if it sold to anyone else at all. He took the first (and only) Coaster to the ocean for surfing instead of to the Sea Kayaking symposium at Port Townsend where I had all our other kayaks available to demo. Once the Elan was out for smaller paddlers (and those who liked low volume kayaks and could fit in it) the Express became our best selling kayak. We directed our advertising to serious paddlers or paddlers who would likely become capable paddlers on the sea coast (where we liked to paddle). That's who our kayaks were designed to appeal to (those few like ourselves who paddled open coastlines) and once those expert paddlers became our enthusiastic, but unpaid, sales force we didn't have to spend very much in advertising either. We were doing well and were therefore free to make our kayaks just how we wanted. This frustrated many who really liked how the kayaks paddled but weren't able to stand up to the abuse they would take for not having a bow bulkhead like a "real" sea kayak. They were not our kind of customers anyway so better they buy someone else's kayak. Most owners, even those who had been somewhat skeptical at first, learned to love how much easier it was to load the kayak through the cockpit. We always tried to do what was best for our customers (but didn't think they were always right about what that was--but we were always willing to discuss it with them). Some customers stayed away from the store because they knew we were anti-rudder. We would have a rudder installed (priced at just our costs) on any Mariner kayak but we would always try to get the customer to try the kayak without the rudder first because they were designed to not need one. Since we would get them a rudder later at the same cost if they wanted to add it they had little to lose to try out the kayak for a few weeks (and become better PADDLERS in the process) to see if they really needed one. Few customers returned for the rudder. Maybe 5% had us install it from the start. While some may have stayed away from our store because of our anti-rudder bias I don't think it cost us as many customers as the lack of a bulkhead did. Again those who felt they needed a rudder were not really the paddlers we wanted to sell to anyway. We carried Nimbus Kayaks and thought they were very well built, liked many of their designs, thpought they had little need for a rudder, but did a better job with the their rudder set up than anybody else at the time (later Feathercraft even changed their design to improve the rudder lift to the way Nimbus was modifying their rudder). I think that trying to best serve anyone who we talked to had a lot to do with our success. Big corporations and big banks ought to dump the Harvard bottom liners and give that philosophy a try for a change. It is much nicer to be loved than hated, more profitable too in the long run. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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Matt, I think the Express would make a nice stripper kayak; and, in keeping with the original design intent, one could forgo the hatch install, thereby keeping the natural beauty of the wood flow. Have to think on that one. Maybe you will get an email from me one day about using the hull profile... Rob said it best here some time ago, that the hulls on your kayaks are right up there with the best in the world, given the hull, for the most part, is what really matters in terms of performance. Nice post matt - thanks for helping to fill in some of the gaps for me. Doug Doug wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>Probably the Mariner Express is an example of a sea kayak with the best seakindly attributes possible, but not as good in rock gardens as the Coaster and not as able to deliver as the Mariner II for distance travel, yet nevertheless a nice compromise in length, gear capacity, stability, responsive maneuverability, and yes, seakindlyness. I'm surprised more paddlers didn't pick up on this model, though I don't have the sales figures. I'm hoping to try one out one day now that I probably can't fit an Elan. Matt and Cam used to advertize that their kayaks were only for the few - implying only the discriminating paddler need apply. As not all their models caught on worldwide, either Matt and Cam struck a brilliant marketing campaign slogan with those adds or the designs really didn't deliver and therefore only a few paddlers bought in. There is certainly enough evidence these days from paddlers thrice or more removed from directly dealing with the Broze brothers, that we know there is truth to the claims of Mariner performance. So perhaps there was some other issue (lack of bulkheads or something, I don't know). <<<<<<<<< Thank you Doug. Why didn't you say these nice things when we were still in business? Maybe we would still be in business. I'm joking. We retired because we needed the rest and could afford to do so. We sold about as many kayaks as we could handle while running a store (and usually doing most of the finishing work like installing seats and decklines ourselves, often late at night. I used to joke that we were our own kayakmaker's late night elves. Until the Dot.com and Boeing busts of the early 2000's we hardly had time for a vacation. To sell more kayaks we would have had to sell wholesale (and therefore sell a whole lot more kayaks to make the same income) and trust that dealers would do an adequate job of explaining the kayaks to potential customers (when we already knew better that most wouldn't). Because our kayaks were so different adequate representation wasn't very likely except in a very few specialty shops. During the early to mid-1980's some of our hull designs were sold wholesale by our builder outside WA and OR. We received a small royalty that amounted to about one eighth of what we would earn if we sold the kayak to that customer directly. This arrangement also limited then number of kayaks that we could sell ourselves, and delayed delivery to our own customers, because wholesale kayaks were coming out of the same molds as the ones we sold direct. I brought this up because I once was down in San Diego after kayaking in Baja (and maybe picking up a trailer load of Seda kayaks on the way back). I went into a sporting goods store and saw a Coaster among the kayaks that were for sale there. I asked a clerk for their expert on kayaks and when he arrived I asked him if he could tell me about the Coaster model they had. His response was: "This kayak over here is better, its got a rudder." But the last straw for us was the quality issues that were occurring with kayaks sold wholesale that we never saw (but heard about later from the customers that bought them at retail stores). Had we seen them, those kayaks would have either been sold as cosmetic seconds or gone back to the builder for repair or destruction had the problem been functional. When the kayaks sold wholesale started having their cockpit rims fall out because of a change the manufacturer did to our kayaks (after I specifically told him not to make that change to our kayaks and that I wouldn't even consider making it until he had at least a year of doing it with his own kayaks with absolutely no problems. Well, none of the kayaks we received and sold had glued in coamings but all the kayaks he made for wholesale (ours and his own) did. The debacle ended up costing our hull builder more than $30,000, hurt our reputation as well as his, and we ended all wholesale sales of our kayaks from then on. At least our builder owned up to the problem and took responsibility for his customer's kayak repairs. Some kayak companies solution to poor quality construction was to blame their quality problems on "shipping damage". That made shipping kayak an even bigger problem for every kayak dealer an even bigger problem than it already was. All the more reason to sell locally. Until business slowed way down after the Dot.com/Boeing bust (putting our major Seattle competitor into bankruptcy) we rarely even accepted international sales. We lost a lot of sales because most of our models were not available with a large bow hatch. So that helped keep sales down to more local customers we could discuss the issues with (that were far easier to serve anyway) and to customers expert enough or strong enough to resist the demands by the British influenced governing bodies and kayak paddling groups and stores insistence that it wasn't a sea kayak unless it had compartments (see the "Flotation" manual on our website for a discussion). Later even a day hatch seemed essential for a kayak sold in a retail store. Personally except for a few (like on the latest Illusions) I think they are a huge waste of storage space. If we weren't already selling more kayaks than we wanted to (and weren't then yet ready to retire) we would have probably had to impose a bow hatch and all its attendant problems (see the above mentioned "Flotation" manual) on our customers. The only other reasonable choice to limit sales was to raise prices. We had to do that several times during the boom 1990's to slow down sales to levels we could handle (and operate on four to five hours of sleep a night). To get to more specifics about what Doug wondered about. The Coaster was our best selling model (also the least expensive) until the new Elan model stole some of its smaller paddler's wing (of that model's many market niches). To think, Cam designed and built it just for himself and didn't care if it sold to anyone else at all. He took the first (and only) Coaster to the ocean for surfing instead of to the Sea Kayaking symposium at Port Townsend where I had all our other kayaks available to demo. Once the Elan was out for smaller paddlers (and those who liked low volume kayaks and could fit in it) the Express became our best selling kayak. We directed our advertising to serious paddlers or paddlers who would likely become capable paddlers on the sea coast (where we liked to paddle). That's who our kayaks were designed to appeal to (those few like ourselves who paddled open coastlines) and once those expert paddlers became our enthusiastic, but unpaid, sales force we didn't have to spend very much in advertising either. We were doing well and were therefore free to make our kayaks just how we wanted. This frustrated many who really liked how the kayaks paddled but weren't able to stand up to the abuse they would take for not having a bow bulkhead like a "real" sea kayak. They were not our kind of customers anyway so better they buy someone else's kayak. Most owners, even those who had been somewhat skeptical at first, learned to love how much easier it was to load the kayak through the cockpit. We always tried to do what was best for our customers (but didn't think they were always right about what that was--but we were always willing to discuss it with them). Some customers stayed away from the store because they knew we were anti-rudder. We would have a rudder installed (priced at just our costs) on any Mariner kayak but we would always try to get the customer to try the kayak without the rudder first because they were designed to not need one. Since we would get them a rudder later at the same cost if they wanted to add it they had little to lose to try out the kayak for a few weeks (and become better PADDLERS in the process) to see if they really needed one. Few customers returned for the rudder. Maybe 5% had us install it from the start. While some may have stayed away from our store because of our anti-rudder bias I don't think it cost us as many customers as the lack of a bulkhead did. Again those who felt they needed a rudder were not really the paddlers we wanted to sell to anyway. We carried Nimbus Kayaks and thought they were very well built, liked many of their designs, thpought they had little need for a rudder, but did a better job with the their rudder set up than anybody else at the time (later Feathercraft even changed their design to improve the rudder lift to the way Nimbus was modifying their rudder). I think that trying to best serve anyone who we talked to had a lot to do with our success. Big corporations and big banks ought to dump the Harvard bottom liners and give that philosophy a try for a change. It is much nicer to be loved than hated, more profitable too in the long run. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 10:05 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > > I think the Express would make a nice stripper kayak; and, in keeping with > the original design intent, one could forgo the hatch install, thereby > keeping the natural beauty of the wood flow. Have to think on that one. > Maybe you will get an email from me one day about using the hull profile... > Interestingly enough, Brian Schulz at Cape Falcon Kayaks, designed and built a boat very similar to an Express in SOF while Pam and I were doing our F-1s in Oregon. He calls it his LPB (long pointy boat) and you can see it on his web site (http://www.capefalconkayak.com/lpb.html). While Brian was setting the lines for this boat he didn't have an Express handy so he used my Mariner II to determine the chine shape and the flow into the bow and stern. I didn't get a chance to paddle it but it seemed to me to be a nice boat and the new owner (who did a lot of the building during that week) seemed very happy with it. > > Rob said it best here some time ago, that the hulls on your kayaks are > right > up there with the best in the world, given the hull, for the most part, is > what really matters in terms of performance. > I've been pretty happy with my experiences in Mariner kayaks having owned one of every model except the Elan and the first Mariner. But, Doug, I suspect you'd like the F-1 just as much as the Express. I encourage you to paddle both of them. Pam thinks we should visit Victoria with a couple boats each and see what you think. Don't let your wife paddle Pam's F-1 or you'll have to build two. Seriously. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks Craig. To be fare to Rob, I thgink we were having a discussion some time ago about Matt's designs and why there was some resistance in the community to the deck/bulkhead/hatchy issue, which Rob also felt was the stumbling block - but then went on to say he wouldn't hesitate to use a kayak outfitted to his own preference, but with one of matt's hulls, as there wasn't anything that would make him concerned about lack of performance. I've certainly looked over the strip-built design offerings and talked a fair bit with designers here and there and in Europe, and if I had more time and a shop on my property (it is out in the counrtyside right now, so not as accessible each night, which is what one needs to make strip kayaks using cumulative time avaliability) I'd consider a Broze design (with permission). Having spent some time with the odd SOF builder, it looks quickly and cheapely doable, but aCoaster inspired design, in my hands, would need to be a pretty tough boat to survive more that 20 minutues with me. I'm much gentler on my wife, though mentally, hmmm, some days...poor woman. Doug > On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 10:05 PM, Doug Lloyd > <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > > > > > I think the Express would make a nice stripper kayak; and, in > keeping with > > the original design intent, one could forgo the hatch install, > thereby> keeping the natural beauty of the wood flow. Have to > think on that one. > > Maybe you will get an email from me one day about using the > hull profile... > > > > Interestingly enough, Brian Schulz at Cape Falcon Kayaks, > designed and built > a boat very similar to an Express in SOF while Pam and I were > doing our F-1s > in Oregon. He calls it his LPB (long pointy boat) and you can > see it on his > web site (http://www.capefalconkayak.com/lpb.html). While Brian > was setting > the lines for this boat he didn't have an Express handy so he > used my > Mariner II to determine the chine shape and the flow into the > bow and stern. > I didn't get a chance to paddle it but it seemed to me to be a > nice boat and > the new owner (who did a lot of the building during that week) > seemed very > happy with it. > > > > > Rob said it best here some time ago, that the hulls on your > kayaks are > > right > > up there with the best in the world, given the hull, for the > most part, is > > what really matters in terms of performance. > > > > I've been pretty happy with my experiences in Mariner kayaks > having owned > one of every model except the Elan and the first Mariner. But, > Doug, I > suspect you'd like the F-1 just as much as the Express. I > encourage you to > paddle both of them. Pam thinks we should visit Victoria with a > couple boats > each and see what you think. Don't let your wife paddle Pam's F- > 1 or you'll > have to build two. Seriously. > > Craig Jungers > Moses Lake, WA > www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 10:38 AM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > > > Having spent some time with the odd SOF builder, it looks quickly and > cheapely doable, but aCoaster inspired design, in my hands, would need to be > a pretty tough boat to survive more that 20 minutues with me. I'm much > gentler on my wife, though mentally, hmmm, some days...poor woman. > > I don't think I'm as hard on boats as you have been in the past (the thousand-piece-Nordkapp as witness) (boy, just think how easy *that* would be to take on an airliner as carry-on... a bitch to assemble though) but you'd be surprised at how durable an SOF can be. We used 12oz ballistic nylon in our boats because Brian couldn't get the 8oz he usually uses. No big penalty in weight but much tougher. The 2-part poly he uses for the nylon is also pretty rugged. The nice thing about a SOF is that you can make it more durable... laminate *all* the ribs and use more of them and laminate the chine pieces and keel piece. Heck, you can even include aluminum or stainless steel if you have a mind to. Not what one might call "classic" but what the heck. A stripper, even if you have a shop and the time, takes months but you can whang out a pretty decent SOF in weeks (if not days). Plus it's cheaper. And if you break it just re-use the pieces to make another one. I suspect that, once you had all that time and money into a stripper, you'd be pretty reluctant to duplicate the current condition of the Nordy anyway. :P Craig *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig said (snip): >I don't think I'm as hard on boats as you have been in the past...We used 12oz ballistic nylon in our boats because Brian couldn't get the 8oz he usually uses. No big penalty in weight but much tougher. The 2-part poly he uses for the nylon is also pretty rugged.< I know they are tough, tougher than a 50 pound Brit boat is some respects, but perhaps not as tough as my Nordy, witness it taking out a logging truck shop's garage door, being blown off my van onto the pavement, belly-first; direct cartwheels over boulders in the surf, etc. Okay, so an SOF might be lighter. >The nice thing about a SOF is that you can make it more durable... laminate *all* the ribs and use more of them and laminate the chine pieces and keel piece. Heck, you can even include aluminum or stainless steel if you have a mind to. Not what one might call "classic" but what the heck.< Yeah, there we go again, making a kayak tougher. Well, I'll accept anyone's offer to test their SOF out in some rock gardens. Bear in mind, I'm not a normal rock garden paddler. Unlike a well-heeled BCU paddler deftly plying his craft around obstacles with the occasional rub, I invented a new sport called pin-balling, where you intentionally bounce off rocks and rock faces gaining speed toward some quasi-tangible goal (or just getting out alive - usually). Doing this in a bombproof glass Coaster would probably been more fun than in a Nordy with a thick, directional keel strip, but an SOF version of a maneuverable craft, I don't know. I hate dipping into a deep chasm all completely rigid and then pulling out completely limp before finishing the run. I've never seen a limp, abused SOF, but I doubt it would float well. >A stripper, even if you have a shop and the time, takes months but you can whang out a pretty decent SOF in weeks (if not days). Plus it's cheaper. And if you break it just re-use the pieces to make another one.< >I suspect that, once you had all that time and money into a stripper, you'd be pretty reluctant to duplicate the current condition of the Nordy anyway. :P Craig< Well, if I did build a stripper for abuse use, the cedar would be the armature only, followed by heavy, overlapping layers of cloth, then painted. Not understanding my predilections? Craig, if you could only travel down the corridors of my memory... DL *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 10:09 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > > I know they are tough, tougher than a 50 pound Brit boat is some respects, > but perhaps not as tough as my Nordy, witness it taking out a logging truck > shop's garage door, being blown off my van onto the pavement, belly-first; > direct cartwheels over boulders in the surf, etc. Okay, so an SOF might be > lighter. > All I'm saying is that for about $300 and a week's worth of work in the shop you can have a kayak that will do a lot of what you like to do. If you break it you spend another week in the shop and $300 to make a new one using 14-oz ballistic nylon instead of that wimpy 12-ounce stuff. You can experiment with designs using plastic-wrap and speed up the design/test processes, too. Don't like where the chines are? Change 'em, re-wrap the boat in plastic-wrap and see if they work better that way. Meanwhile, in between paddling your SOF, you could always work on a stripper. But if you let the gals paddle an F-1 you'll probably have to make them boats of their own first. Doing this in a bombproof glass Coaster would probably been more > fun than in a Nordy with a thick, directional keel strip, but an SOF > version > of a maneuverable craft, I don't know. I hate dipping into a deep chasm all > completely rigid and then pulling out completely limp before finishing the > run. I've never seen a limp, abused SOF, but I doubt it would float well. > I dunno about bombproof... my first Coaster cost me $1k and another $500 for Sterling to fix a bunch of major holes. One of them was seven inches long. And that didn't include any gel-coat as I purposely wanted it to look as beat up as possible to deter any thieves who might recognize the boat. This makes me pretty sure that fiberglass boats aren't bombproof. They might be easier to fix but, as you should know, every fix adds weight. > > Not understanding my predilections? Craig, if you could only travel down > the > corridors of my memory... > > Actually I think I do understand your feelings. I have enjoyed reading about your exploits and would love to read more of them. I just want to get you out there this season so I don't have to wait longer for more of the stories. :) I don't want to sound like I'm proselytizing for SOF kayaks here. I'm suggesting it for purely pragmatic reasons: quick to build, inexpensive, responsive to edges and paddle strokes (but not as fast edge-to-edge as your Nordy was), and light in weight. Didn't you buy a S&G kayak last year? Where did that go? Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 10:09 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > > I know they are tough, tougher than a 50 pound Brit boat is some respects, > but perhaps not as tough as my Nordy, witness it taking out a logging truck > shop's garage door, being blown off my van onto the pavement, belly-first; > direct cartwheels over boulders in the surf, etc. Okay, so an SOF might be > lighter. > Craig replied: >All I'm saying is that for about $300 and a week's worth of work in the shop you can have a kayak that will do a lot of what you like to do. If you break it you spend another week in the shop and $300 to make a new one using 14-oz ballistic nylon instead of that wimpy 12-ounce stuff. You can experiment with designs using plastic-wrap and speed up the design/test processes, too. Don't like where the chines are? Change 'em, re-wrap the boat in plastic-wrap and see if they work better that way. Meanwhile, in between paddling your SOF, you could always work on a stripper. But if you let the gals paddle an F-1 you'll probably have to make them boats of their own first< Got it Craig. And the 14-oz sounds promising; now you are talking my language. Does it come it 24-oz? Seriously? Doing this in a bombproof glass Coaster would probably been more > fun than in a Nordy with a thick, directional keel strip, but an SOF > version > of a maneuverable craft, I don't know. I hate dipping into a deep chasm all > completely rigid and then pulling out completely limp before finishing the > run. I've never seen a limp, abused SOF, but I doubt it would float well. > Craig replied: >I dunno about bombproof... my first Coaster cost me $1k and another $500 for Sterling to fix a bunch of major holes. One of them was seven inches long. And that didn't include any gel-coat as I purposely wanted it to look as beat up as possible to deter any thieves who might recognize the boat. This makes me pretty sure that fiberglass boats aren't bombproof. They might be easier to fix but, as you should know, every fix adds weight.< Oh, my Nordy was tough - even before reinforcing. Matt, Sterling, and others can say what they want to about brittle, Brit boats, but some of those concave/convex sections of the VCP Nordkapp were brilliant and almost indestructible. I just had to reinforce some of the stress riser areas feathering into these sections. As for keeping your Coaster thief-repellant ugly, brilliant! Too bad it wasn't fire proof. > > Not understanding my predilections? Craig, if you could only travel down > the > corridors of my memory... > > Actually I think I do understand your feelings. I have enjoyed reading about your exploits and would love to read more of them. I just want to get you out there this season so I don't have to wait longer for more of the stories. :) Craig said: >I don't want to sound like I'm proselytizing for SOF kayaks here. I'm suggesting it for purely pragmatic reasons: quick to build, inexpensive, responsive to edges and paddle strokes (but not as fast edge-to-edge as your Nordy was), and light in weight. Didn't you buy a S&G kayak last year? Where did that go?< As per Kirk's post, I realize the strength inherency with SOF construction and the other attributes you advocate for. I can't imagine not building an SOF once I sort out some shop time priority or build a workshop in my now decommissioned septic-field backyard. Alderson's S&G I bought was being used by Yvonne before she got sick; I'd given up on it a bit, though with the skeg and centre lee-board I'll be setting it up as my sailing kayak; probably add a rudder too. And for rough water, I didn't like the V hull, chine sides - not the same as the shallow arched Nordkapp I'm used to, which is a bit more tender but more predictable to me (in side seas). Nor did I find weather helm mitigation that much better than with my Nordkapp (rudder up), and that after everything everyone promised with a hard chine kayak. Yes, I know how to paddle. No, I can't discount Matt's assertions that his hull design strategy allows a greater freedom from devices (other than the sliding seat). I also did not like the way the painted, fiberglass over plywood hull abraded. It chips out, leaving exposed fibers. I much prefer a gelcoated hull surface, not to thin, not too thick. All in good time Craig, all in good time (though time does seem in short supply some days). Doug *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Having spent some time with the odd SOF builder, it looks quickly and > cheapely doable, but aCoaster inspired design, in my hands, would need to > be a pretty tough boat to survive more that 20 minutues with me. I'm much > gentler on my wife, though mentally, hmmm, some days...poor woman. SOF can be much much sturdier than you expect. The 8 and 12 ounce nylon and polyester fabrics are extremely sturdy. A friend was building SOF commercially for a while. He lost a boat off the roof of his car on the way to deliver it, doing 50+ miles per hour. The boat bounced off the guard rail, he went back picked it up, looked it over and didn't find damage. He explained what happened to the prospective buyer and she took delivery... I spent the day with him at a demo day. When someone would question durability I would lift the hull to eye level and drop it on a cobble beach. Not something I would do with a carbon or 'glass boat. While you could to it with a plastic boat I would be wary of suffering a hernia for the effort ;-) There are a few other great stories of robustness, driving over bow lines, leaving the boat cockpit up under the edge of a roof during a torential downpour... Go for the SOF build..... It's surprisingly easy, after you have the materials cut it's just a bunch of quiet time as you tie it together then sew the skin. Kirk (fwiw I built aluminum framed 8 ounce nylon skinned SOF) -- Kirk Olsen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I made a SOF modeled on the Mariner, inspired by the big chines at and behind the hips. It's a really good boat. On Feb 23, 2010, at 11:11 PM, Craig Jungers wrote: > On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 10:05 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > >> >> I think the Express would make a nice stripper kayak; and, in keeping with >> the original design intent, one could forgo the hatch install, thereby >> keeping the natural beauty of the wood flow. Have to think on that one. >> Maybe you will get an email from me one day about using the hull profile... >> > > Interestingly enough, Brian Schulz at Cape Falcon Kayaks, designed and built > a boat very similar to an Express in SOF while Pam and I were doing our F-1s > in Oregon. He calls it his LPB (long pointy boat) and you can see it on his > web site (http://www.capefalconkayak.com/lpb.html). While Brian was setting > the lines for this boat he didn't have an Express handy so he used my > Mariner II to determine the chine shape and the flow into the bow and stern. > I didn't get a chance to paddle it but it seemed to me to be a nice boat and > the new owner (who did a lot of the building during that week) seemed very > happy with it. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
G'Day, In Australia, remote area marine weather prediction usually depends on a short wave radio and a decent knowledge of local and national weather broadcast schedules. It's a bit of an art as you don't get to see synoptic charts and need to develop your own idea of changing regional trends ands forecast reliability by tracking the broadcast weather observations. Sat phones are starting to be used but are very expensive to hire buy and operate - they also chew through batteries at a rate of knots. I've recently come across HF internet, that is using shortwave radio to access the internet. http://www.winlink.org/ Makes me wonder how practical it would be to download a synoptic chart onto a handheld computer linked to a portable SW receiver. I'm not sure yet how its done, whether one needs an HF transmitter or whether hooking up to a shortwave receiver is enough? Does anyone have any experience in this area? All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
PS an overview of HF Internet is given here: http://www.ips.gov.au/Category/Educational/Other%20Topics/Radio%20Communicat ion/Internet_Access_Via_HF.pdf All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 6:55 PM, PeterO <rebyl_kayak_at_energysustained.com>wrote: > > I've recently come across HF internet, that is using shortwave radio to > access the internet. http://www.winlink.org/ Makes me wonder how practical > it would be to download a synoptic chart onto a handheld computer linked to > a portable SW receiver. I'm not sure yet how its done, whether one needs an > HF transmitter or whether hooking up to a shortwave receiver is enough? > > Does anyone have any experience in this area? > The biggest drawback to using HF radio for internet connections is the lack of bandwidth. To simplify, bandwidth requires... wide bandwidths.... and HF radio is limited in its frequencies (essentially 2mhz to 30mhz) so much that no more than about 9600bps(if that!) is possible. You can improve that somewhat by using compaction algorythms but the bandwidth is still nowhere near "fast". Then there are the comlpications caused by multipath, distance, phase differences, etc. which further reduce throughput. Weatherfax is, however, entirely possible using HF frequencies and most modern weather services and coast guards use it. It's not new but it's effective most of the time. But this is by no means a new technology. Winlink is normally used for email and is pretty satisfactory for that but attachments are still problematic because of the bandwidth limitations. I used to use an ancient Zenith Z-181 laptop for weatherfax and morse broadcasts when I was working on ships. It was valuable because I didn't need to use paper... we could just receive a fax, look at it, print it if it was pertinent and if not just wait for the next one. The problem with a handheld will be getting the audio into the computer but there is no reason you couldn't use an Iphone (or similar) or any netbook computer to do the same things. I recommend fax for weather and winlink for email. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig wrote: > ....Weatherfax is, however, entirely possible using HF frequencies and most >modern weather services and coast guards use it. It's not new but it's >effective most of the time. But this is by no means a new technology. >Winlink is normally used for email and is pretty satisfactory for that but >attachments are still problematic because of the bandwidth limitations. G'Day Craig, Thanks very much for that excellent advice and I've found several scheduled HF fax broadcasts for synoptic charts for Australia at http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDG00074.shtml . Now the question is whether there is hardware and software available to link the audio from an SSB transmission to a handheld or very small computer and then interpret the signal? Sounds like a tall order but almost anything is possible on Paddlewise! All the best, Peter *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter.... there are several accessories used by amateur radio operators which will interface nicely with your laptop via a RS232 (or USB to RS232) connection. The one I have is old (PK232) but it will decode RTTY, AMTOR/SITOR, CW, and FAX and send the results to your laptop. This is not the only unit but it's still available in updated form. Special software is required to take the data in and display it on your screen but it would not amaze me to discover that someone has written something for smart phones to do the job. Ham licenses are pretty handy for sea going folks and not as hard to get as they once were (generally no morse code requirements any more). Craig Jungers, K7EXJ Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 10:37 PM, PeterO <rebyl_kayak_at_energysustained.com>wrote: > Craig wrote: > > ....Weatherfax is, however, entirely possible using HF frequencies and > most > >modern weather services and coast guards use it. It's not new but it's > >effective most of the time. But this is by no means a new technology. > >Winlink is normally used for email and is pretty satisfactory for that but > >attachments are still problematic because of the bandwidth limitations. > > > G'Day Craig, > > Thanks very much for that excellent advice and I've found several scheduled > HF fax broadcasts for synoptic charts for Australia at > http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDG00074.shtml . Now the question is > whether > there is hardware and software available to link the audio from an SSB > transmission to a handheld or very small computer and then interpret the > signal? Sounds like a tall order but almost anything is possible on > Paddlewise! > > All the best, Peter *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig wrote >There seems to be plenty of software for PCs on the web amateur radio sites G'Day Craig, Thanks for that I'm making progress. No need for a ham license though its sort of good and sort of sad to see that morse is no longer used much or required - but morse was always my weak point. After considering your first email I'm aiming at not using a transmitter and restricting myself to scheduled broadcasts on non paddling days or days when I'm up early (4:15am). The signal takes 15 to 30 minutes to download so it can't be automated because of the almost inevitable need to shift frequencies during the transmission and the problem of selecting the right frequency in the first place. I'm not using a very versatile receiver here, just a Sony ICF-SW7600GR synchronous dual conversion SSB - albeit the technology is wonderfully sensitive and compact. If I were to use an HF transmitter it would be a lot of fun but also a lot of weight and batteries and significantly increased signal propagation issues as you also mentioned. It would then be much more practical to use a satphone and hang the cost! All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Well learning morse and carrying a small QRP (very low power xmtr) 4-band transceiver will certainly come in handy. A satphone is more reliable of course, but there are any number of hams who would be eager to monitor frequencies at sceduled times in order to get your position and relay weather data. A surprising amount of information can be conveyed using CW. As for expense, there are QRP xcvr kits for under $100 but in general 5-watt CW QRP rigs cost around $300. Batteries are not that big of a problem for a 5-watt unit but you might want to consider gel-cells and a solar panel (roll-up sort - 30-watt would be good, too). I have, personally (while cruising on our yacht) coordinated the rescue of several yachts using morse to talk to the yacht in trouble and SSB to contact rescue vessels. There used to be a group of tuna boats in the Pacific monitoring a 15-meter ham net and they were instrumental in getting folks off their boats safely. Elecraft is one kit manufacturer that comes highly recommended but there are even less expensive rigs out there. One is the "rockless QRP" rig for which parts are available for under $100 and fits in a sardine tin. :) In BC (Canada) almost the entire inside passage is covered by VHF amateur repeaters which can be linked together to talk all the way down to Seattle. Very handy for paddlers using only a 144Mhz handheld. My wife is also a ham and in the old days (BC... before cells) we used VHF ham radios for our communications and often even phone calls. I even used 2-meters to link my Z-181 with my home computer and collect my email via a unix-like operating system from a base camp on San Juan Island. I am not at all certain you could do that today. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 11:32 PM, PeterO <rebyl_kayak_at_energysustained.com>wrote: > Craig wrote > >There seems to be plenty of software for PCs on the web amateur radio > sites > > G'Day Craig, > > Thanks for that I'm making progress. No need for a ham license though its > sort of good and sort of sad to see that morse is no longer used much or > required - but morse was always my weak point. > > After considering your first email I'm aiming at not using a transmitter > and restricting myself to scheduled broadcasts on non paddling days or days > when I'm up early (4:15am). The signal takes 15 to 30 minutes to download so > it can't be automated because of the almost inevitable need to shift > frequencies during the transmission and the problem of selecting the right > frequency in the first place. I'm not using a very versatile receiver here, > just a Sony ICF-SW7600GR synchronous dual conversion SSB - albeit the > technology is wonderfully sensitive and compact. > > If I were to use an HF transmitter it would be a lot of fun but also a lot > of weight and batteries and significantly increased signal propagation > issues as you also mentioned. It would then be much more practical to use a > satphone and hang the cost! > > All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
G'Day Craig, I have operator licenses for VHF and HF marine radio transceivers but not the amateur radio license. Unfortunately the VHF repeater stations have been closed down along much of our coast line. So far I've only been involved in two or three rescues that involved VHF radio and we managed, just barely, to get by relaying VHF signals around headlands. Interesting that rescue authorities here worry about EPIRBs but have little compunction about shutting down radio repeater services. Different departments of gov't! IMHO it was the loss of a really important resource when morse was abandoned as an international radio distress signal. These days I don't know anyone who knows morse except perhaps Peter Rattenbury and yourself. SSB should be almost as good as far as signal propagation goes but not as far as the capacity of an ear to pick signal out of noise. I hadn't thought about QRP transmitters - that just might be transportable (and waterproofable) in a larger kayak. Not sure where radio amateurs would stand using such a transmitter on marine frequencies? Also I'm in a kayak so any such transmissions would only be practical from shore I think. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
G'Day Craig, After your posts I took a look at QRP transceivers and was amazed at how small they had become - haven't looked at amateur radio for years though when I was a kid I used to spend almost every waking moment thinking about, designing and building shortwave radio receivers. In fact my earliest engagement in a marine rescue operation (so minor it was irrelevant) was when the pirate radio station Radio Caroline sank slowly into the sea. The latest units looked as though they could be very useful in the early stages of a rescue operation. Though I think radio hams in Oz would use CB emergency channels or one of several networks of operators dedicated to providing emergency services such as http://www.vks737.on.net/ . I'm not certain but I don't believe Australian radio amateurs have as much freedom of channel use in an emergency as they do in the US. The receivers on most of the QRP transceivers I looked at, didn't have the frequency coverage and stability, or selectivity, to allow following our weather radio broadcasts. The time window is quite tight and if you miss something you might have to wait up to 12 hours for the next forecast. However, I'd bow to Peter Rattenbury's experience if he's had the chance to use one over here. A unit that came close was the Yaesu FT817. Without knowing much about this unit the only real weakness seemed to be lack of pre-programmed digital frequency selection that allows a quick change of frequency if a channel starts to fade. I'd love to see/hear one in action. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
G'day Craig, Well your guidance worked very well. All I had to do was connect the computer internal sound card to my SW radio earphone output, download two pieces of software: Weatherfax 2000 and Comm32; and after an afternoon of tuning the audio signal its working remarkably well. I had to use SSB as the signal was far to weak for AM FSK and with SSB neither piece of software was adequate by itself but by using the Comms 32 spectrum analysiser and the Weatherfax decoder I'm getting quite readable albeit slanted fax displays of synoptic charts etc. Lots of improvements left to do ie getting rid of the slant and improving signal to noise and I'm sure an external demodulator will be a much better option than the sound card but its all looking very promising at 10 minutes a download plus ten minutes for preliminary tuning and probably ten minutes setup of aerials in the bush! Thanks again and all the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 2:13 AM, PeterO <rebyl_kayak_at_energysustained.com>wrote: > > > Well your guidance worked very well. All I had to do was connect the > computer internal sound card to my SW radio earphone output, download two > pieces of software: Weatherfax 2000 and Comm32; and after an afternoon of > tuning the audio signal its working remarkably well. > > Peter... that's terrrific. Thanks for the update. Frankly I have not played with this stuff for a long time. But I am planning to move into some of the new amateur digital modes using one of the tiny QRP units. I do have several mobile ham HF transceivers which I am going to install on the muthah-ship so it's nice to know that the sound card interface works!!! You might like to know that I garnered a bit of a reputation around here by using weatherfax. When Sue and I first moved to the farm in Royal City we took over an alfalfa operation. One of the big problems with alfalfa is that you need 5 to 7 days of rain-free weather after cutting (swathing) to dry the crop before it's suitable to bale. Any significant rain can completely ruin a US$30k harvest. I used my ham radio gear to go back to the weatherfax frequencies and watch the storms making their way across the northern North Pacific. After a bit of time I could determine that it generally took a storm with a low pressure of less than about 910mb to produce rain here after passing over the 12,000 foot Cascade Mountains. After a few years the other operators started to notice that I never got caught in the rain and began to mimic me.... cutting when I did even when lots of others already had their alfalfa on the ground. I wonder what they did when I moved away. LOL. Glad this system is working for you. Please keep us all updated about how it works in real life paddling. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: > I used my ham radio gear to go back to the weatherfax frequencies and > watch the storms making their way across the northern North Pacific. > After a bit of time I could determine that it generally took a storm > with a low pressure of less than about 910mb to produce rain here after > passing over the 12,000 foot Cascade Mountains. After a few years the > other operators started to notice that I never got caught in the rain > and began to mimic me.... cutting when I did even when lots of others > already had their alfalfa on the ground. I wonder what they did when I > moved away. LOL. Craig, Good to know you have a background in alfalfa and know how to use weather information. Not so good that you think the Cascades typically run to 12000 ft. Rainier _alone_ stacks up to over 14,000, and Adams, the next tallest, is over 12. Nothing else is much over 8000 or 9000 except for Mt. Baker, Glacier Peak, and a couple oddballs in the very northern Cascades, while the ridge of the Washington Cascades up-weather from you averages about 5000-6000 ft. Adams is bulky, but too narrow to affect the weather where you are -- storms just slide around it. Its rain shadow barely affects Yakima. Paddling content: you can't paddle on Mt Adams. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
PS There seems to be plenty of software for PCs on the web amateur radio sites and all that's needed is a sound card so I'll modify my question and ask: - A) has anyone tried this sort of thing out with a shortwave SSB radio and small computer - can they recommend a program? B) are the fax encoding protocols likely to be according to an international standard? C) does anyone know of such a program for handhelds All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 11:11 PM, PeterO <rebyl_kayak_at_energysustained.com>wrote: > > > There seems to be plenty of software for PCs on the web amateur radio sites > and all that's needed is a sound card so I'll modify my question and ask: - > > A) has anyone tried this sort of thing out with a shortwave SSB radio and > small computer - can they recommend a program? > I used a PK232 and PC Pakratt (sp?) for years along with an ancient Zenith Z-181 (no hard drive, just two 3-1/2 inch floppy drives) laptop (with DesqView for multi-tasking) on ships as a professional mariner. I think I'd recommend an external decoding device as opposed to the built-in sound card but it might be a moot point. The better the radio (and antenna) the better the results, > B) are the fax encoding protocols likely to be according to an > international > standard? > Yes, otherwise International shipping (the primary market) would not be able to decode them with standardized equipment. > C) does anyone know of such a program for handhelds > I don't... but there might be something out there. The problem is getting the data into the handheld as so few of them have RS232 or USB interfaces. I think I'd use a "netbook" (very small laptop) because the screen size becomes a problem reading fax prints. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig wrote: - >The better the radio (and antenna) the better the results, Absolutely agree I always take a spool of wire and rig the best antennae I can manage - Not much point trying to fine tune it given the strict time windows and relatively long wavelengths but I do make sure its omni-directional to reduce the need to frequency shift during transmission. >Yes, otherwise International shipping (the primary market) >would not be able to decode them with standardized equipment. And >I'd use a "netbook" (very small laptop) because the screen size >becomes a problem reading fax prints. Good point - even my nice new prescription specs might not cope. Its starting to sound very practical - I'll try it out on my regular computer first and let you know how I go. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
PS Craig, Forgot to say many thanks for all the good advice, very much appreciated! All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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