Physical Therapy's definition of Dynamic Stability: 1. the ability that the body regains balance at the moment of giving any perturbation. The Mechanics definition: The characteristic of a body, such as an aircraft, rocket, or ship, that causes it, when disturbed from an original state of steady motion in an upright position, to damp the oscillations set up by restoring moments and gradually return to its original state. Also known as stability. McGraw-Hill Dictionary of Scientific & Technical Terms, 6E, Copyright ) 2003 by The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc. (Essentially if something disturbs the boat it oscillates less each time until it resumes its original position.) Paul and Rob, are either of the above definitions what you mean by "dynamic stability" in relation to kayaks? Years ago I wanted to use "Dynamic Stability" to denote how well a kayak tends to remain upright on its own (by that I mean without input from the paddle) in rough seas, but then I discovered it was a term already used in Naval Architecture and its definition wasn't exactly what I had wanted to convey so I had to search for other terms. Seakindly seems to fit better with what I meant. I originally wanted to use Seaworthy but it turn out hat just means it is unlikely to sink not how well it handles. In the mechanics definition above Dynamic Stability is a characteristic of the craft and does not seem to concern to active participation of a paddler and paddle. Possibly the Physical Therapy definition would cover that. I suggest we define what it is we seem to be disagreeing about before getting down to the knock down drag out paddle battle. > Paul wrote: > My own experience is that dynamic stability (from boat speed) helps to > overcome sea-state (clapotis & chop) - but is less useful in conditions of > cresting side-waves & surf, and much less useful in wind gusts and willies. > These situations benefit from a longer paddle (ie: longer than my last > regularly-used Euro paddle). > > One vivid GP memory is sitting under a tall bluff and waiting out some wind > 'dumps' that came down and hissed across the otherwise flat water - kicking > up little whirls of spray. I've always remembered them with my reaction at > the time 'sh#t - this has to be 50+ knots'. For a few minutes, I was in > 'brace to survive' mode, low to the deck and GP held low & centrally - > equally out on either side, as I was struggling to stay head-on to the > rock wall and keep whatever shelter I could get. > > The ease of doing a slap-brace on either side with no hand movement - and no > wrist rotation (un-feathered GP, of course) was certainly something I valued > in that particular experience - and something I continue to think of as > a benefit of the GP. > > Best Regards > Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand Dynamic stability is not dependent upon which direction features come from, be it beam, stern or bow. It is what it says it is, stability in dynamic environments by actually paddling and utilizing water features, not bracing and losing momentum, especially with an overly long lever that offers slower cadence and the ability for the water to catch up and control you. Use your lower body tension with proper posture and the control surfaces of your hull to achieve stability while paddling, not dumbing down your speed to get to where you need to be. I was a safety boater at the Deception Pass Dash, an early winter race in Washington's Deception Pass, a few years ago. I was given the lousiest assignment possible, be the guy at Deception Island at the mouth of the inlet where the wind blows hard and the swell bounced me around for an uninterrupted 2.5 hours. Me and my 205 cm paddle. When it came time to leave it was a slog to paddle across 30 knots of wind on the nose to the shelter of the cliff a mile opposite. It's nice having the cadence to actually paddle into the wind, across the current ebbing against me and over the waves and boils. A long paddle, relying on reactive techniques would truly have sucked. Some of the racers in their faster boats got a ride on a powerboat from our position. Cheers, Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Matt, I'm not aware of it's use as a professional term, just kayak jargon. I referenced it from an instructional DVD by Simon Westgarth called Genotype 2. I've seen and heard it around for awhile but do not know who specifically coined that phrase. I thought it useful to the discussion to suggest another course of effective boat control for those of us not using long paddles. Rephrasing the concept: Lower body tension Posture Positive pressure on the blade Proactive versus reactive paddling Use of the water's features to go where you want to My take on this is that the kayak, person and paddle are a unit and when we adopt key elements of the above at the right time to be where we want to be. I'm jujst guessing but I believe the Dynamic part refers to multiple concepts with an additional play on the immediate environment, while stability is the end result. Anyone else heard this? Cheers, Rob -----Original Message----- From: MATT MARINER BROZE <marinerkayaks_at_msn.com> Subject: [Paddlewise] Dynamic Stability Physical Therapy's definition of Dynamic Stability: 1. the ability that the body regains balance at the moment of giving any perturbation. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Before I found out it had another meaning in Naval Architecture, I wanted to use Dynamic Stability to mean that the kayak and paddler tended to remain vertical in rough wave conditons due to the interaction of the hulls shape with the water and waves. I've found that a small "footprint" with lots of flare (both side to side and front to back--think of a river dory shape) tends to stay upright in exteme wave conditions (meaning anything short of boat engulfing tubular dumping breakers). River dories are about the only larger, hard shelled, craft used to run big rapids and I think it is their low initial but high secondary stability shape, hard chines, flared sides and the rockered, high, full ends that make that possible. I think you will find a similar, but lengthened, shape to most of the sea kayaks that are considered especially sea kindly in rough seas and moderate surf. Rob rcgibbert_at_aol.com wrote, regarding "dynamic stability": > > Hi Matt, > > I'm not aware of it's use as a professional term, just kayak jargon. I > referenced it from an instructional DVD by Simon Westgarth called > Genotype 2. I've seen and heard it around for awhile but do not know > who specifically coined that phrase. I thought it useful to the > discussion to suggest another course of effective boat control for > those of us not using long paddles. Rephrasing the concept: > > Lower body tension > Posture > Positive pressure on the blade > Proactive versus reactive paddling > Use of the water's features to go where you want to > > My take on this is that the kayak, person and paddle are a unit and > when we adopt key elements of the above at the right time to be where > we want to be. I'm jujst guessing but I believe the Dynamic part refers > to multiple concepts with an additional play on the immediate > environment, while stability is the end result. Anyone else heard this? > Cheers, *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 5:40 PM, <rcgibbert_at_aol.com> wrote: > > My take on this is that the kayak, person and paddle are a unit and when we > adopt key elements of the above at the right time to be where we want to be. > I'm jujst guessing but I believe the Dynamic part refers to multiple > concepts with an additional play on the immediate environment, while > stability is the end result. Anyone else heard this? > I've watched Eric Jackson demonstrate this concept in white water and it's awesome to see. He uses the moving water to help him position the boat and then a few paddle strokes and he's done. I watched him "ferry" across a river with only four or five strokes but even so not losing position and being swept down the river. The paddler he was trying to demonstrate this for did like most of us, flail across with dozens of paddle strokes while still struggling not to get swept down stream. Until I watched Jackson do this I would have never thought it was possible. Opened up a whole new system of kayak control to me. Too bad I could never get even close to the way he did it. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It is a combination of where you point your boat relative to the water, the degree to which you lean your boat, where you position your boat on the wave, and the hull shape of the boat. A lot of folks have difficulty with this because they either don't combine all the elements correctly at the start, or because they over- or under-correct once they have started. -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of Craig Jungers . . . I've watched Eric Jackson demonstrate this concept in white water and it's awesome to see. He uses the moving water to help him position the boat and then a few paddle strokes and he's done. . . . *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Jul 20, 2010, at 9:38 AM, Craig Jungers wrote: > He uses the moving water to help him position the boat and > then a few paddle strokes and he's done. Moving water can do very funny things. Harnessing those funny forces would seem to make wormholes possible. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD3RKDd8HCA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObjeCtFcpqU Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
And water. Kayak, person, paddle and water. Wu Wei of White Water: http://my.tbaytel.net/culpeper/WuWeiOfWhiteWater.html -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of rcgibbert_at_aol.com My take on this is that the kayak, person and paddle are a unit and when we adopt key elements of the above at the right time to be where we want to be. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>And water. Kayak, person, paddle and water. >Wu Wei of White Water: >http://my.tbaytel.net/culpeper/WuWeiOfWhiteWater.html > Yes! I use the same passage (different translation --I like yours better, though) for my Adult School paddling classes. It always amazes me how readily it is accepted by even beginning students. --And more amazing that so many experienced paddlers have arrived at this over time. There is one consummate paddler in this area who is a joy to watch. He will negotiate a complex path in his canoe, paddle in the water, and you almost never see that paddle move. I'll toss another quote out from Wayne Dyer: "When you dance, your goal is not to reach a particular point on the floor, but to enjoy each step along the way." Joe P. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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