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From: MATT MARINER BROZE <marinerkayaks_at_msn.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] Dynamic Stability
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 22:53:29 -0700
Physical Therapy's definition of Dynamic Stability:

1. the ability that the body regains balance at the moment of giving any
perturbation.




The Mechanics definition:
The characteristic of a body, such as an aircraft, rocket, or ship, that
causes it, when disturbed from an original state of steady motion in an
upright position, to damp the oscillations set up by restoring moments and
gradually return to its original state. Also known as stability.


McGraw-Hill Dictionary of Scientific & Technical Terms, 6E, Copyright ) 2003
by The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc.

(Essentially if something disturbs the boat it oscillates less each time until
it resumes its original position.)


Paul and Rob, are either of the above definitions what you mean by "dynamic
stability" in relation to kayaks? Years ago I wanted to use "Dynamic
Stability" to denote how well a kayak tends to remain upright on its own (by
that I mean without input from the paddle) in rough seas, but then I
discovered it was a term already used in Naval Architecture and its definition
wasn't exactly what I had wanted to convey so I had to search for other terms.
Seakindly seems to fit better with what I meant. I originally wanted to use
Seaworthy but it turn out hat just means it is unlikely to sink not how well
it handles. In the mechanics definition above Dynamic Stability is a
characteristic of the craft and does not seem to concern to active
participation of a paddler and paddle. Possibly the Physical Therapy
definition would cover that.



I suggest we define what it is we seem to be disagreeing about before getting
down to the knock down drag out paddle battle.





> Paul wrote:
> My own experience is that dynamic stability (from boat speed) helps to
> overcome sea-state (clapotis & chop) - but is less useful in conditions of
> cresting side-waves & surf, and much less useful in wind gusts and willies.
> These situations benefit from a longer paddle (ie: longer than my last
> regularly-used Euro paddle).
>
> One vivid GP memory is sitting under a tall bluff and waiting out some wind
> 'dumps' that came down and hissed across the otherwise flat water - kicking
> up little whirls of spray. I've always remembered them with my reaction at
> the time 'sh#t - this has to be 50+ knots'. For a few minutes, I was in
> 'brace to survive' mode, low to the deck and GP held low & centrally -
> equally out on either side, as I was struggling to stay head-on to the
> rock wall and keep whatever shelter I could get.
>
> The ease of doing a slap-brace on either side with no hand movement - and
no
> wrist rotation (un-feathered GP, of course) was certainly something I
valued
> in that particular experience - and something I continue to think of as
> a benefit of the GP.
>
> Best Regards
> Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand

Dynamic stability is not dependent upon which direction features come
from, be it beam, stern or bow. It is what it says it is, stability in
dynamic environments by actually paddling and utilizing water features,
not bracing and losing momentum, especially with an overly long lever
that offers slower cadence and the ability for the water to catch up
and control you. Use your lower body tension with proper posture and
the control surfaces of your hull to achieve stability while paddling,
not dumbing down your speed to get to where you need to be.

I was a safety boater at the Deception Pass Dash, an early winter race
in Washington's Deception Pass, a few years ago. I was given the
lousiest assignment possible, be the guy at Deception Island at the
mouth of the inlet where the wind blows hard and the swell bounced me
around for an uninterrupted 2.5 hours. Me and my 205 cm paddle. When it
came time to leave it was a slog to paddle across 30 knots of wind on
the nose to the shelter of the cliff a mile opposite. It's nice having
the cadence to actually paddle into the wind, across the current ebbing
against me and over the waves and boils. A long paddle, relying on
reactive techniques would truly have sucked. Some of the racers in
their faster boats got a ride on a powerboat from our position.

Cheers,

Rob G
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From: <rcgibbert_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Dynamic Stability
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 20:40:39 -0400
Hi Matt,

I'm not aware of it's use as a professional term, just kayak jargon. I 
referenced it from an instructional DVD by Simon Westgarth called 
Genotype 2. I've seen and heard it around for awhile but do not know 
who specifically coined that phrase. I thought it useful to the 
discussion to suggest another course of effective boat control for 
those of us not using long paddles. Rephrasing the concept:

Lower body tension
Posture
Positive pressure on the blade
Proactive versus reactive paddling
Use of the water's features to go where you want to

My take on this is that the kayak, person and paddle are a unit and 
when we adopt key elements of the above at the right time to be where 
we want to be. I'm jujst guessing but I believe the Dynamic part refers 
to multiple concepts with an additional play on the immediate 
environment, while stability is the end result. Anyone else heard this?
Cheers,

Rob

-----Original Message-----
From: MATT MARINER BROZE <marinerkayaks_at_msn.com>
Subject: [Paddlewise] Dynamic Stability


Physical Therapy's definition of Dynamic Stability:

1. the ability that the body regains balance at the moment of giving any
perturbation.
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From: MATT MARINER BROZE <marinerkayaks_at_msn.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Dynamic Stability
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 18:29:25 -0700
Before I found out it had another meaning in Naval Architecture, I wanted to
use Dynamic Stability to mean that the kayak and paddler tended to remain
vertical in rough wave conditons due to the interaction of the hulls shape
with the water and waves. I've found that a small "footprint" with lots of
flare (both side to side and front to back--think of a river dory shape) tends
to stay upright in exteme wave conditions (meaning anything short of boat
engulfing tubular dumping breakers).



River dories are about the only larger, hard shelled, craft used to run big
rapids and I think it is their low initial but high secondary stability shape,
hard chines, flared sides and the rockered, high, full ends that make that
possible. I think you will find a similar, but lengthened, shape to most of
the sea kayaks that are considered especially sea kindly in rough seas and
moderate surf.


Rob rcgibbert_at_aol.com wrote, regarding "dynamic stability":
>
> Hi Matt,
>
> I'm not aware of it's use as a professional term, just kayak jargon. I
> referenced it from an instructional DVD by Simon Westgarth called
> Genotype 2. I've seen and heard it around for awhile but do not know
> who specifically coined that phrase. I thought it useful to the
> discussion to suggest another course of effective boat control for
> those of us not using long paddles. Rephrasing the concept:
>
> Lower body tension
> Posture
> Positive pressure on the blade
> Proactive versus reactive paddling
> Use of the water's features to go where you want to
>
> My take on this is that the kayak, person and paddle are a unit and
> when we adopt key elements of the above at the right time to be where
> we want to be. I'm jujst guessing but I believe the Dynamic part refers
> to multiple concepts with an additional play on the immediate
> environment, while stability is the end result. Anyone else heard this?
> Cheers,
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From: Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Dynamic Stability
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 06:38:56 -0700
On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 5:40 PM, <rcgibbert_at_aol.com> wrote:

>
> My take on this is that the kayak, person and paddle are a unit and when we
> adopt key elements of the above at the right time to be where we want to be.
> I'm jujst guessing but I believe the Dynamic part refers to multiple
> concepts with an additional play on the immediate environment, while
> stability is the end result. Anyone else heard this?
>

I've watched Eric Jackson demonstrate this concept in white water and it's
awesome to see. He uses the moving water to help him position the boat and
then a few paddle strokes and he's done. I watched him "ferry" across a
river with only four or five strokes but even so not losing position and
being swept down the river. The paddler he was trying to demonstrate this
for did like most of us, flail across with dozens of paddle strokes while
still struggling not to get swept down stream.

Until I watched Jackson do this I would have never thought it was possible.
Opened up a whole new system of kayak control to me. Too bad I could never
get even close to the way he did it.


Craig Jungers
Moses Lake, WA
www.nwkayaking.net
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From: Richard Culpeper <culpeper_at_tbaytel.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Dynamic Stability
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 10:40:27 -0400
It is a combination of where you point your boat relative to the water, the
degree to which you lean your boat, where you position your boat on the
wave, and the hull shape of the boat.  A lot of folks have difficulty with
this because they either don't combine all the elements correctly at the
start, or because they over- or under-correct once they have started.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net
[mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of Craig Jungers
. . . 

I've watched Eric Jackson demonstrate this concept in white water and it's
awesome to see. He uses the moving water to help him position the boat and
then a few paddle strokes and he's done. 

. . . 
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From: James Farrelly <JFarrelly5_at_comcast.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Dynamic Stability
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 10:23:09 -0400
On Jul 20, 2010, at 9:38 AM, Craig Jungers wrote:

>  He uses the moving water to help him position the boat and
> then a few paddle strokes and he's done. 

Moving water can do very funny things. Harnessing those funny forces would seem to make wormholes possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD3RKDd8HCA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObjeCtFcpqU


Jim et al
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From: Richard Culpeper <culpeper_at_tbaytel.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Dynamic Stability
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 11:14:58 -0400
And water.  Kayak, person, paddle and water.

Wu Wei of White Water:
http://my.tbaytel.net/culpeper/WuWeiOfWhiteWater.html



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net
[mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of rcgibbert_at_aol.com
My take on this is that the kayak, person and paddle are a unit and 
when we adopt key elements of the above at the right time to be where 
we want to be.
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From: Joe P. <jpylka_at_earthlink.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Dynamic Stability
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 13:32:46 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>And water.  Kayak, person, paddle and water.
>Wu Wei of White Water:
>http://my.tbaytel.net/culpeper/WuWeiOfWhiteWater.html
>

Yes!  I use the same passage (different translation --I like yours better, though) for my Adult School paddling classes.  It always amazes me how readily it is accepted by even beginning students. --And more amazing that so many experienced paddlers have arrived at this over time.  
There is one consummate paddler in this area who is a joy to watch.  He will negotiate a complex path in his canoe, paddle in the water, and you almost never see that paddle move.  

I'll toss another quote out from Wayne Dyer:
"When you dance, your goal is not to reach a particular point on the floor, but to enjoy each step along the way."

Joe P.
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