Craig, My feet are numb all the time now and back pain is constant and growing. My MD ordered a back x-ray (took him long enough, jeesh, then he calls, better get in here quick!); looks like the L4 and L5 are out of alignment and the nerves are crushing (facet arthritis is the cause). No more yoga or weightlifting for this dude. Probably will need a fusion at some point before bladder control goes. Looks like all that extreme fun over the years has caught up finally. Thank goodness for early retirement next year. Spending time in the deep end of the pool in a PFD just hanging there decompressing the spine for relief and raiding my wife's morphine supply now that she is in remission - again. And heck, I used to hang around in the ocean in my PFD whenever I bailed and couldn't get back my yak many moons ago...I'll just pretend my kayaks there on the end of a tether leash and it's another great adventure. :-) Doug On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 6:36 AM, Jennifer Pivovar > Aren't we a creaky bunch? Just don't stop!! > It's inevitable, I suppose. But I agree that stopping is deadly. Slow down if you must, but don't stop. I'm taking a mountain bike out later today for a ride. Craig PS: For Doug... haven't tried the wax technique yet.... there are some new arthritis meds out there that don't have deadly side effects. And hydro codone helps a lot. cj *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug, Well, I'm glad Yvonne is doing better... that's good news. When we were on the sailboat and I had back problems I would hang from the companionway hatch but there are dang few of those on land. But unweighting the spine is a good way to help things... those anti-gravity machines where you tie your feet up and then invert are supposed to be good too. Maybe all that blood would help us old guys with brain action too. Getting old isn't so great... but I'm pretty sure it beats the alternative. The good news is that you actually know, now, what the problem is and that there is a fix for it. Your work probably doesn't help with being on your feet so much. I'm having foot problems... I think that 20 years of a left knee blown out means that my right foot has taken up too much of the strain. Or maybe it's just old age. It's worse, oddly enough, in the mornings... and I can sort of work it out over a couple of hours. I have no compunctions now with taking those three-wheeled electric carts in stores nowadays. Every now and then I try to run down a cute girl. :D My thoughts are, as always, with you often. :) Craig On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 5:36 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > Craig, > > My feet are numb all the time now and back pain is constant and growing. My > MD ordered a back x-ray (took him long enough, jeesh, then he calls, better > get in here quick!); looks like the L4 and L5 are out of alignment and the > nerves are crushing (facet arthritis is the cause). No more yoga or > weightlifting for this dude. Probably will need a fusion at some point > before bladder control goes. Looks like all that extreme fun over the years > has caught up finally. Thank goodness for early retirement next year. > Spending time in the deep end of the pool in a PFD just hanging there > decompressing the spine for relief and raiding my wife's morphine supply > now > that she is in remission - again. And heck, I used to hang around in the > ocean in my PFD whenever I bailed and couldn't get back my yak many moons > ago...I'll just pretend my kayaks there on the end of a tether leash and > it's another great adventure. :-) > > Doug > > > On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 6:36 AM, Jennifer Pivovar > > > Aren't we a creaky bunch? Just don't stop!! > > > > It's inevitable, I suppose. But I agree that stopping is deadly. Slow down > if you must, but don't stop. I'm taking a mountain bike out later today for > a ride. > > Craig > > PS: For Doug... haven't tried the wax technique yet.... there are some new > arthritis meds out there that don't have deadly side effects. And hydro > codone helps a lot. > > cj *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Well Craig, spent the night in the ER, got a Cat scan emergently, doesn't look good. Need neurosurgery pronto. Groin has gone numb which is an emergency. Been trying to tell my doc I'm in a bad way... The ERP wanted to know what the heck I've been doing in my life to get my spine/back this bad off. Shall we tell him? :-) DL Doug, Well, I'm glad Yvonne is doing better... that's good news. When we were on the sailboat and I had back problems I would hang from the companionway hatch but there are dang few of those on land. But unweighting the spine is a good way to help things... those anti-gravity machines where you tie your feet up and then invert are supposed to be good too. Maybe all that blood would help us old guys with brain action too. Getting old isn't so great... but I'm pretty sure it beats the alternative. The good news is that you actually know, now, what the problem is and that there is a fix for it. Your work probably doesn't help with being on your feet so much. I'm having foot problems... I think that 20 years of a left knee blown out means that my right foot has taken up too much of the strain. Or maybe it's just old age. It's worse, oddly enough, in the mornings... and I can sort of work it out over a couple of hours. I have no compunctions now with taking those three-wheeled electric carts in stores nowadays. Every now and then I try to run down a cute girl. :D My thoughts are, as always, with you often. :) Craig On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 5:36 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > Craig, > > My feet are numb all the time now and back pain is constant and growing. My > MD ordered a back x-ray (took him long enough, jeesh, then he calls, better > get in here quick!); looks like the L4 and L5 are out of alignment and the > nerves are crushing (facet arthritis is the cause). No more yoga or > weightlifting for this dude. Probably will need a fusion at some point > before bladder control goes. Looks like all that extreme fun over the years > has caught up finally. Thank goodness for early retirement next year. > Spending time in the deep end of the pool in a PFD just hanging there > decompressing the spine for relief and raiding my wife's morphine supply > now > that she is in remission - again. And heck, I used to hang around in the > ocean in my PFD whenever I bailed and couldn't get back my yak many moons > ago...I'll just pretend my kayaks there on the end of a tether leash and > it's another great adventure. :-) > > Doug > > > On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 6:36 AM, Jennifer Pivovar > > > Aren't we a creaky bunch? Just don't stop!! > > > > It's inevitable, I suppose. But I agree that stopping is deadly. Slow down > if you must, but don't stop. I'm taking a mountain bike out later today for > a ride. > > Craig > > PS: For Doug... haven't tried the wax technique yet.... there are some new > arthritis meds out there that don't have deadly side effects. And hydro > codone helps a lot. > > cj *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug, I've been having my own back pain that I've had troubles shaking off the last couple of months and have been wondering myself how hard kayaking is on my back. I may have to resort to prone paddle boarding and build one with VCP hatches! Duane >________________________________ > >From: Doug Lloyd douglloyd_at_shaw.ca > > >The ERP wanted to know what the heck I've been doing in my life to get my >spine/back this bad off. Shall we tell him? :-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Duane, I know that when I did a lot of touring I'd have some pretty bad back pain at times, especially at the beginning of a longer trip or the first few trips of the "season" if I'd been off for the winter (used to have rotator cuff issues and there were years I'd back off winter paddling). Good abdominal strength through fitness cross training helped but I guess at some point there may be a negative cumulative toll with one's back. I rather think that slouching while long distance paddling must really compress the spine in bad ways and I'm sure I've been culpable of that in the past as I never used a back band. Probably proper fit and ergonomic outfitting of a sea kayak is more important than we think, as well as proper technique. The last few years of paddling I was using my arms more for propulsion than good torso rotation, but I was having bad back spasms, etc, and as I have strong arms got away with it. I wish I'd taken up yoga at least a decade ago or more. Anyway, degenerative changes and bad genetics sometimes mean one is so predisposed to problems that one just has to decide that they are willing to pay the price to enjoy activities maximally when they were able. My favorite quote lately goes something like this: "Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to slide in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "Holy ****, what a ride!" Of course, my groin is numb and cold right now and I'm doped up on morphine as I await seeing a neurosurgeon and hopefully have a long way to go before the grave and some good kayaking years left, but in the mean time, just call me numb nuts! Whatever happens, you have been one of the reasons sea kayaking has been a blast in this era where kayaking has grown exponentially and is now fading a bit; with your awesome attitude, down-home dude desire to share information and foster friendships through cyber space, I'm glad you have been part of that fantastic experience Duane. Doug >Doug, I've been having my own back pain that I've had troubles shaking off the last couple of months and have been wondering myself how hard kayaking is on my back. I may have to resort to prone paddle boarding and build one with VCP hatches! Duane< >________________________________ > >From: Doug Lloyd douglloyd_at_shaw.ca > > >The ERP wanted to know what the heck I've been doing in my life to get my >spine/back this bad off. Shall we tell him? :-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
When I first started kayaking, I had pain problems with my arms, legs, and back. I'm confident that I would not have been able to continue without placing water bottles under the knees, and installing a pad on the seat back. I also try to get in a couple of practice paddles before going on an extended kayak trip, to reduce the shock to my body. I'll never forget our first trip to the Broken Group, where we changed campsite locations every day for a week or more. My arms went so numb, I didn't think I'd be able to finish the trip. Now I realize that you don't have to be the strongest paddler in a group, you just don't want to be the slowest or weakest. Of course, in inclement conditions, you definitely want to be a strong paddler. Brad Crain On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 6:53 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > Duane, > > I know that when I did a lot of touring I'd have some pretty bad back pain > at times, especially at the beginning of a longer trip or the first few > trips of the "season" if I'd been off for the winter (used to have rotator > cuff issues and there were years I'd back off winter paddling). Good > abdominal strength through fitness cross training helped but I guess at > some point there may be a negative cumulative toll with one's back. I > rather > think that slouching while long distance paddling must really compress the > spine in bad ways and I'm sure I've been culpable of that in the past as I > never used a back band. Probably proper fit and ergonomic outfitting of a > sea kayak is more important than we think, as well as proper technique. The > last few years of paddling I was using my arms more for propulsion than > good > torso rotation, but I was having bad back spasms, etc, and as I have strong > arms got away with it. I wish I'd taken up yoga at least a decade ago or > more. Anyway, degenerative changes and bad genetics sometimes mean one is > so > predisposed to problems that one just has to decide that they are willing > to > pay the price to enjoy activities maximally when they were able. My > favorite > quote lately goes something like this: > > "Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved > body, but rather to slide in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "Holy > ****, what a ride!" > > Of course, my groin is numb and cold right now and I'm doped up on morphine > as I await seeing a neurosurgeon and hopefully have a long way to go before > the grave and some good kayaking years left, but in the mean time, just > call > me numb nuts! > > Whatever happens, you have been one of the reasons sea kayaking has been a > blast in this era where kayaking has grown exponentially and is now fading > a > bit; with your awesome attitude, down-home dude desire to share information > and foster friendships through cyber space, I'm glad you have been part of > that fantastic experience Duane. > > Doug > > > > > >Doug, > > I've been having my own back pain that I've had troubles shaking off > the last couple of months and have been wondering myself how hard kayaking > is > on my back. I may have to resort to prone paddle boarding and build one > with > VCP hatches! > > Duane< > > > >________________________________ > > > >From: Doug Lloyd > douglloyd_at_shaw.ca > > > > > >The ERP wanted to know what the heck I've been doing > in my life to get my > >spine/back this bad off. Shall we tell him? :-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
For years I had zero pain from paddling. No leg-numbness either. I thought that the Telkwa's seat - which is pretty comfortable - had something to do with it until I switched to a Mariner Express with the sliding seat and found that to be just as good (oddly enough). In the SOF I just have a blue foam pad cut to shape and I even like that! My feet have gone to sleep in a white water kayak though (but not the RPM Max). I attributed that to the way you have to sit in some of them. Hands have been another matter for me. Paddling can be extremely painful. I haven't had any long trips with the GP so I'm hoping that has solved some of it. I'm also grateful for no rotator cuff issues. But I do spend more time on the sofa so maybe that will cure everything. :D Craig *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig, On my non-stop, nearly 36 hour "Hundred Miler" just 9 years ago, I didn't have any butt or back pain at all. I was just plain tired. I don't know how I did it. Maybe the whole torso rotation thing has screwed me up and I need to go back to arm paddling. Duane >________________________________ > From: Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com> > >For years I had zero pain from paddling. No leg-numbness either. I thought that the Telkwa's seat - which is pretty comfortable - had something to do with it until I switched to a Mariner Express with the sliding seat and found that to be just as good (oddly enough). In the SOF I just have a blue foam pad cut to shape and I even like that! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Works for me! Sometimes I think I'm rotating, but it's probably just a figment of my imagination. Mark On 3/11/2012 7:08 PM, Duane Strosaker wrote: > Maybe the whole torso rotation thing has screwed me up and I > need to go back to arm paddling. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Duane, Torso rotation can be a problem if it occurs in the lumbar spine (which only has 5 degrees of rotation) rather than the entire pelvis rotating, allowing the hips to alternately slide forward. I'm suffering from trying to apply power in rotation and not getting enough hip/pelvis rotation. There may also be a problem with having a posterior pelvic tilt (common in kayakers http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/weight-training-the-romanian-deadlift-41777) vs the noticeable anterior tilt of competitive surfski/K1 paddlers http://www.sportscene.tv/flatwater/canoe-sprint/news/greg-barton-nominated-fo r-the-u.s.-olympic-hall-of-fame . Debra On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 7:08 PM, Duane Strosaker <strosaker_at_yahoo.com>wrote: > Craig, > > On my non-stop, nearly 36 hour "Hundred Miler" just 9 years ago, I > didn't have any butt or back pain at all. I was just plain tired. I don't > know > how I did it. Maybe the whole torso rotation thing has screwed me up and I > need to go back to arm paddling. > > Duane > > > >________________________________ > > > From: Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com> > > > >For years I had zero pain from > paddling. No leg-numbness either. I thought that the Telkwa's seat - which > is > pretty comfortable - had something to do with it until I switched to a > Mariner > Express with the sliding seat and found that to be just as good (oddly > enough). In the SOF I just have a blue foam pad cut to shape and I even > like > that! > -- *\* Debra dbk92675_at_gmail.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Debra, Thanks for that info. Gosh, 5 degrees rotation in the lumbar spine isn't much. It seems that rotating it could be as injurous as cocking the wrists. Arm paddling may be my answer. Rotating the hips works for short distances, but after an hour the butt grinds uncomfortably in the seat. . By the way, I armed paddled those hundred miles. Duane >________________________________ > From: Debra Kettler dbk92675_at_gmail.com > > >Torso rotation can be a problem if it occurs in the lumbar spine (which only has 5 degrees of rotation) rather than the entire pelvis rotating, allowing the hips to alternately slide forward. I'm suffering from trying to apply power in rotation and not getting enough hip/pelvis rotation. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In ER all night again tonight, feet had gone cold, etc. Got to see a copy of last Fridays CT scan. I have five disc bulges from L2 through L5 with canal stenosis in every spine segment with severe stenosis in L4-L5. I was told to go home and suck it up basically and if I lose bladder control maybe I'd get surgery consideration more emergently. Gotta love the BC health care system. So will back off paddling until I get some resolve to at least the severe stenosis and associated pain and not bug you guys on Paddlewise anymore. Though, if anyone has been through this kind of stuff please back channel me. Thanks. Doug When I first started kayaking, I had pain problems with my arms, legs, and back. I'm confident that I would not have been able to continue without placing water bottles under the knees, and installing a pad on the seat back. I also try to get in a couple of practice paddles before going on an extended kayak trip, to reduce the shock to my body. I'll never forget our first trip to the Broken Group, where we changed campsite locations every day for a week or more. My arms went so numb, I didn't think I'd be able to finish the trip. Now I realize that you don't have to be the strongest paddler in a group, you just don't want to be the slowest or weakest. Of course, in inclement conditions, you definitely want to be a strong paddler. Brad Crain On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 6:53 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > Duane, > > I know that when I did a lot of touring I'd have some pretty bad back > pain at times, especially at the beginning of a longer trip or the > first few trips of the "season" if I'd been off for the winter (used > to have rotator cuff issues and there were years I'd back off winter > paddling). Good abdominal strength through fitness cross training > helped but I guess at some point there may be a negative cumulative > toll with one's back. I rather think that slouching while long > distance paddling must really compress the spine in bad ways and I'm > sure I've been culpable of that in the past as I never used a back > band. Probably proper fit and ergonomic outfitting of a sea kayak is > more important than we think, as well as proper technique. The last > few years of paddling I was using my arms more for propulsion than > good torso rotation, but I was having bad back spasms, etc, and as I > have strong arms got away with it. I wish I'd taken up yoga at least a > decade ago or more. Anyway, degenerative changes and bad genetics > sometimes mean one is so predisposed to problems that one just has to > decide that they are willing to pay the price to enjoy activities > maximally when they were able. My favorite quote lately goes something > like this: > > "Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well > preserved body, but rather to slide in sideways, totally worn out, > shouting "Holy ****, what a ride!" > > Of course, my groin is numb and cold right now and I'm doped up on > morphine as I await seeing a neurosurgeon and hopefully have a long > way to go before the grave and some good kayaking years left, but in > the mean time, just call me numb nuts! > > Whatever happens, you have been one of the reasons sea kayaking has > been a blast in this era where kayaking has grown exponentially and is > now fading a bit; with your awesome attitude, down-home dude desire to > share information and foster friendships through cyber space, I'm glad > you have been part of that fantastic experience Duane. > > Doug > > > > > >Doug, > > I've been having my own back pain that I've had troubles shaking off > the last couple of months and have been wondering myself how hard > kayaking is on my back. I may have to resort to prone paddle boarding > and build one with VCP hatches! > > Duane< > > > >________________________________ > > > >From: Doug Lloyd > douglloyd_at_shaw.ca > > > > > >The ERP wanted to know what the heck I've been doing > in my life to get my > >spine/back this bad off. Shall we tell him? :-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I credit my slouching posture and La-Z-Boy giant back band for my LACK of back pain! You don't hear about people sitting in their recliners watching Wheel of Fortune 6 hours a day complaining about their backs too much. Of course, Pat Sajak IS the opiate of the masses. Mark On 3/10/2012 6:53 PM, Doug Lloyd wrote: > I rather > think that slouching while long distance paddling must really compress the > spine in bad ways and I'm sure I've been culpable of that in the past as I > never used a back band. Probably proper fit and ergonomic outfitting of a > sea kayak is more important than we think, *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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