Just to keep things moving along, here is another question: Does your paddling club have any formal requirements for leaders in terms of skill, experience, etc., or can anyone lead a club trip who volunteers? If the club has leader requirements, what are they? What about leader training? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Just for reference: In Western Sea Kayakers (BASK south bay sister club) anyone who learns the paper work can lead a trip. However, the trip has to be announced several weeks before in the club's newsletter. That gives ample time for more experience people to advise in favor or against the trip or join to colead the trip. I have been trying to get people to join me in my regular roll/rescue sessions, but for some reason that kind of practice is very unpopular. What does it take to convice people of the need to enphasize on building skills? - Julio > > > Just to keep things moving along, here is another question: Does your paddling club have any formal requirements for leaders in terms of skill, experience, etc., or can anyone lead a club trip who volunteers? If the club has leader requirements, what are they? What about leader training? > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > *************************************************************************** > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Hi Chuck! The club I´m in does mostly private trips, so it is not expected to have any special requirements. Anyway, the lawyers do not have so much to win as in the States, the laws do not allow very large claims. Now: the safety regulations are reconsidered, and during last few years a nation-wide training programme for trip leaders has been constructed. It does include examinations, so not all skilled and experienced paddlers are considered suiteble for the leadership. Personally, I do know a few of them, taking irrational risks with newcomers... BTW: the name of our club "Melaveikot" means something I am not really able and willing to translate... something about comparing a paddle to masculine genitals: "the guys with THE B#LLS". The folks in the thirties were not able to see to the future, what kind of secondary meanings would the slang bring :-) Ari Saarto "Think about your hips - a good sea kayaker is also a worthy partner in samba..." Kannaksenkatu 22 / P.O. 92 15141 Lahti - Finland - Europe GSM +358 - 50 - 526 5892 fax. +358 - 3 - 828 2815 e-mail: asaarto_at_lpt.fi *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Chuck Holst wrote: >> >> >> Just to keep things moving along, here is another question: Does your paddling club have any formal requirements for leaders in terms of skill, experience, etc., or can anyone lead a club trip who volunteers? If the club has leader requirements, what are they? What about leader training? >> >> >> >> our club has no "trip leaders" anymore, just "trip coordinators" ;-) but what we do, is all those interested in leading/coordinating trips, we have a pot luck dinner, and bring out, basically a peg board, with all the weekends for thefirst part of the year, then we get volunteers to coordinate each of them. most of these folks have run the section before, and many of these are the same folks year after year... usually we have 20-30 folks show up, and we get a trip or two every weekend from april to september. we shoot for one easy, [class II or less] and one hard, class III+ each weekend. this year may be difficult, as colorado is having a very dry winter, and we're below average on snow pack. may be a short season this year. mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/cpr [Colorado Paddlers' Resource] http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmskc [Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club] http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmcc [Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page] http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark [personal] -- Fortune: Now I lay me down to sleep I pray the double lock will keep; May no brick through the window break, And, no one rob me till I awake. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Chuck wrote; > > > Just to keep things moving along, here is another question: Does your paddling club have any formal requirements for leaders in terms of skill, experience, etc., or can anyone lead a club trip who volunteers? If the club has leader requirements, what are they? What about leader training? The two clubs I belong to have a slightly different approach to trips. There are no leaders. There is a trip organizer. The organizer decides where he or she wants to go and then lets out the word about time and location as well as some idea of the skill level required and the maximum number of people for the trip. The organizer can refuse to let a person go if; a) he doesn't like the person. b) he doesn't think they have proper equipment. c) he doesn't think they have proper skills. d) he is just feeling irritable. The idea is that the organizer is nothing more than a person who shouts "Hey, anybody want to paddle out to the Bustard Islands with me?" The organizer is not required to have any skills but they are expected to have properly equipped boats even though no one checks. I think they feel the key word is "organizer" as opposed to "leader". Whether one becomes responsible just because the trip was advertised in the club newsletter or because one is a member of the club has not been tested in court. I am the only member that I know of who has a personal waiver. The club has a waiver form they expect people to sign but I feel that that implies some form of responsibility so I refuse to use it. Cheers John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: --snip-- > I am the only member that I know of who has a personal waiver. The > club > has a waiver form they expect people to sign but I feel that that > implies > some form of responsibility so I refuse to use it. I also use John's personal waiver, or to be more correct, I have trip participants sign a waiver saying that if anything goes wrong, they will sue John first. I am recommending to the WCA that they start using John Waivers, and I would encourage every paddler everywhere to do the same. Cheers, Richard Culpeper www.geocities.com/~culpeper *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: >The two clubs I belong to have a slightly different approach to trips. >There are no leaders. There is a trip organizer. The organizer decides >where he or she wants to go and then lets out the word about time and >location as well as some idea of the skill level required and the maximum >number of people for the trip. John, I agree completely with your definition. We have been having arguments of leader vs. organizer in our local club recently, and I think that this is an important distinction to make. I think a leader is important on a trip with, say, the YMCA or Mountain Travel Sobek. With kayaking clubs, which are generally made up of people who have made a commitment to kayaking, a leader becomes superfluous and can start start creating hierarchies within a club. Yes, an organizer can use judgment such as "The water is 35 degrees and you want to wear shorts? You're not goin' buster.", but an organizer isn't going to run my life while I'm on a trip. When I am on a trip with a group, I'm my own leader and take responsibility for my actions while looking to the organizer for logistical information, tips, area info or whatever. There is gray area between the two, but I think that defining how a trip is organized is important for all those involved to understand. When I organize winter camping trips, I'll tell someone if they're not prepared to go out in the conditions we might face. But I am not going to demand that people follow me when I go on hike A, or tell someone they can't go on this trip because they haven't built 40 snowcaves according to British specifications. If someone gets in trouble while on a trip (whatever kind of trip that might be), or course I'll do my damnedest to get them out safely, but that is commonsense, not leadership. I'd like to hear what others think about this, and how your local club operates. -Patrick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Patrick wrote: >>>snip >I think a leader is important on a trip > with, say, the YMCA or Mountain Travel Sobek. With kayaking clubs, which > are generally made up of people who have made a commitment to kayaking, a > leader becomes superfluous and can start start creating hierarchies within > a club. Yes, an organizer can use judgment such as "The water is 35 > degrees and you want to wear shorts? You're not goin' buster.", but an > organizer isn't going to run my life while I'm on a trip. When I am on a trip with > a group, I'm my own leader and take responsibility for my actions while > looking to the organizer for logistical information, tips, area info or > whatever. There is gray area between the two, but I think that defining how > a trip is organized is important for all those involved to understand. >>> I have just today started reading some of the Leader/Waiver thread and so what I am about to say may well be redundant. I hope not too much so. I don't have anything to add about the waiver argument. I believe waivers are essential whether you are talking about clubs, corporations or busnesses. (A good argument can be made that if you decided that a particular person could not go on a trip then you have also, as a result, decided that the ones who can go are considered qualified by you and hence you are vulnerable to being sued.) What I do have an opinion on is the issue of the value of a leader. Ultimalely a paddler is responsible for himself/herself during an outing. However, a paddler within a group can very easily become a nuisance and even a danger to that group if he/she has an attitude of "... an organizer isn't going to run my life while I'm on a trip." One example of this is a trip that I led two or three years ago (it was with the Seattle Mountaineers - a club that insists on a basic skill level for all participants and has a signed waiver on file for all members): About a dozen of us had paddled ten miles or so when, after lunch, we started out on a four mile crossing to our take-out spot. About half way across, a wall of wind hit us from abeam and very shortly we were in four foot seas with the wind blowing the tops off of the whitecaps. I paused for a moment to dig out a skull cap (I was paddling a "wet" boat - a Romany 18). By the time I had put on my cap a couple of the more skilled paddlers decided it was fun and they took off fast. They were about one hundred and fifty yards away and, in these conditions, were out of ear/whistle shot. The problem was that a couple of macho, but much less skilled, paddlers took off with them and before I knew it the whole group was spread out. I was forced to drop back with the slowest paddler and I assigned my co-leader to stay fairly near another paddler that was having a bit of trouble. It wasn't long before the group was spread out half mile or more. By the time I landed the two lead paddlers had their boats on their cars. You can believe they got an ear full from me. We all arrived safely but I figured it would have taken me five to seven minutes to have reached some of the others in the group if they had capsized, and it could have been a real problem if more than one had gone over (the water in this area runs around 45 degrees). Obviosly there were good lessons learned by me as a leader that day. In addition to how I might have handled the situation differently, I learned that, as a participant in a group, all members have responsibilities. Obviosly, this is a rather simple example of how things can go wrong but it did drive the point home for me. I had led many trips before this incident and I have led many trips since. I believe strongly that groups need leaders and if they need leaders, they also need followers (or at least active participants). If a person wants to paddle as though they are by themselves when with a group then they should not be in a group. John Winskill *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
> From: "patrick.maun_at_duffy.com " <patrick.maun_at_duffy.com> > > John Winters wrote: > >The two clubs I belong to have a slightly different approach to trips. > >There are no leaders. There is a trip organizer. The organizer decides > >where he or she wants to go and then lets out the word about time and > >location as well as some idea of the skill level required and the > maximum > >number of people for the trip. > > John, > > I agree completely with your definition. We have been having arguments of > leader vs. organizer in our local club recently, and I think that this is > an important distinction to make. I think a leader is important on a trip > with, say, the YMCA or Mountain Travel Sobek. With kayaking clubs, which > are generally made up of people who have made a commitment to kayaking, a > leader becomes superfluous and can start start creating hierarchies within > a club. Yes, an organizer can use judgment such as "The water is 35 > degrees and you want to wear shorts? You're not goin' buster.", but an > organizer isn't going to run my life while I'm on a trip. When I am on a trip with > a group, I'm my own leader and take responsibility for my actions while > looking to the organizer for logistical information, tips, area info or > whatever. There is gray area between the two, but I think that defining how > a trip is organized is important for all those involved to understand. > > When I organize winter camping trips, I'll tell someone if they're not > prepared to go out in the conditions we might face. But I am not going to > demand that people follow me when I go on hike A, or tell someone they can't > go on this trip because they haven't built 40 snowcaves according to > British specifications. If someone gets in trouble while on a trip (whatever > kind of trip that might be), or course I'll do my damnedest to get them out > safely, but that is commonsense, not leadership. > > I'd like to hear what others think about this, and how your local club > operates. > > -Patrick > I understand what you mean about not wanting to be forced to abide by the "rules" of someone who might not understand your skills as well as you do. I can also understand the need of some clubs to establish some trip rules and ask for waivers if someone is representing the club in an outing. I wouldn't really care whether waivers were used or not, as long as the club is incorporated. This is an important distinction in many areas. When a club incorporates, this protects its members from another club representative acting negligently which could injure (or worse) someone on the outing, where many of us can relate stories of leaders/coordinator insisting the members who were not equipped skill-wise to "go in over their heads," so to speak. I can understand from a liability point the need for clubs to establish consistent rules and, in their own defense, show they are doing whatever they can to make sure the trip is a safe one and to have basic safety rules for coordinators and members. Those rules should be presented before the trip. Rules such as no one will leave the group, everyone will wear a pfd (or no one will wear a pfd depending on your club :-), everyone will carry glow sticks at night, everyone will have a whistle, etc.. These are only examples but represent clear-cut rules for the club and the goals or safety standards the club is attempting to establish for its organization and the paddler is aware of *before* the trip. It provides advance notice for those who would object to such rules thereby having the opportunity (choice beforehand) to not participate in that club's trips. I have a problem with being told I will do whatever the leader/coordinator instructs (ambiguous) or I won't be invited back. As we have read here, there have been instances where some leaders/coordinators have lead the members into conditions where they were not prepared. I don't think the club can have it both ways... insist the paddler is responsible for themselves yet demand that they follow all instructions of the trip leader/coordinator. I mentioned in a previous message that I worry this wording may send a message to the paddler that the leader is ultimately responsible for their own safety rather than themselves. I think a possible valuable use of a waiver is that it can be the springboard for educating paddlers about safety and ultimately being responsible for their own safety, the best lesson a paddler can learn, imho. Telling the paddler they must do everything the leader/coordinator instructs (too ambiguous and not specifically laid out ahead of time) I'm afraid might send the wrong message. And I personally, would not want to be put in such a position as a trip coordinator. However, I might feel quite differently about such a waiver if I were a professional outfitter/tour guide. I prefer John Winters' waiver :-). If anyone missed it, they can find it at http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/articles/ under clubs and waivers. Cheers, Jackie http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/ _ _ _ _ _ \\ / \0/ \ / \0/ \ \\ " " `\ ,sSSs,\, )\w/( ,sSS..)/{) <<..> sSSS_v)/ \ )<*> sSS[(\_]___\ <(_/_o_o_ 'sS[_`-+---+) \----+-------+-------'---`-----\-------------') ~~~~~~~ ~~jf ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~\~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ o \ o \\ o o \\ o o ` (\ o o >jf:-) o (/ o *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Jackie Fenton wrote: [SNIP] >I can also understand the need of some clubs to >establish some trip rules and ask for waivers if someone is representing >the club in an outing. I wouldn't really care whether waivers were used >or not, as long as the club is incorporated. [SNIP] >Those rules should be presented >before the trip. Rules such as no one will leave the group, everyone >will wear a pfd (or no one will wear a pfd depending on your club :-), >everyone will carry glow sticks at night, everyone will have a whistle, >etc.. Good points Jackie, The only part I'd disagree with is the "no one will leave the group" thing. I do agree with waivers and think that they are a great opportunity for outlining trip rules. Currently, to take part in a club trip (Twin Cities Sea Kayak Association), a member must show that they can execute a wet-exit and paddlefloat re-entry, and must have all the basic equipment (by basic I mean PFD, paddlefloat, whistle). I think the trick here is to define the differences between leader and organizer/coordinator. Should a organizer be BCU or ACA certified? I don't think so. This is one of the debates going on in our club. I am an intermediate kayaker. I am not certified by anyone but have taken an ACA-certified course. I have taken several CPR courses, but not since 8th grade and I hear that CPR has been updated (has the human respiratory system changed or what?). Should this exclude me from organizing a beginning trip, say a class I river trip in waters I am familiar with? I don't think so. Debate? -Patrick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
> From: "patrick.maun_at_duffy.com " <patrick.maun_at_duffy.com> > >Those rules should be presented > >before the trip. Rules such as no one will leave the group, everyone > >will wear a pfd (or no one will wear a pfd depending on your club :-), > >everyone will carry glow sticks at night, everyone will have a whistle, > >etc.. > > Good points Jackie, > > The only part I'd disagree with is the "no one will leave the group" > thing. There are some who feel very strongly about keeping the group together. When a paddler disappears over the horizon and out of sight, it's difficult for others to know whether that paddler is ok, might be in need of help, whatever. Also, paddlers that leave the group are not around if their assistance might be needed. Sometimes the group (and this has happened) may change their mind in the middle of a crossing and want to return, but the paddler that has disappeared cannot be conferred with. Leaving a group behind can really cause inconvenience for the rest of the group not to mention possibly creating a dangerous situation. It all depends on your purpose of paddling in a group. If you are with a group that expects and doesn't care that paddlers disperse, that's the option for that group. It's just another preference. If you know it beforehand and disagree, then you have the option of not going. > I do agree with waivers and think that they are a great opportunity > for outlining trip rules. Currently, to take part in a club trip (Twin > Cities Sea Kayak Association), a member must show that they can execute a > wet-exit and paddlefloat re-entry, and must have all the basic equipment (by > basic I mean PFD, paddlefloat, whistle). This could have something to do with club insurance. I don't know. I know that the ACA provides insurance for clubs that are ACA affiliated (I don't know what they do about visitors or club members that don't belong to the ACA). I'm not sure what the requirements are for the level of experience for trip coordinators to be covered or even if there are requirements. > I think the trick here is to define the differences between leader and > organizer/coordinator. Should a organizer be BCU or ACA certified? I don't > think so. This is one of the debates going on in our club. I am an > intermediate kayaker. I am not certified by anyone but have taken an > ACA-certified course. I have taken several CPR courses, but not since 8th > grade and I hear that CPR has been updated (has the human respiratory > system changed or what?). Should this exclude me from organizing a > beginning trip, say a class I river trip in waters I am familiar with? > I don't think so. Can't there be a category for non-club trips but announcements by the individual that a trip is taking place? I don't know if this would release the club from liability or not which I guess is their concern. Plus, the majority just may decide that they are not going to budge on what they consider are their minimum standards. I have seen clubs announce "non-club" outings in their newsletters. It's just basically a bulletin board. REI has a board where people announce outings on index cards and they have no idea of their capabilities. I would be surprised if they would be liable. But I don't know. However, because the notices are there leads me to believe REI is not liable. > Debate? This is how many new clubs are formed. What one group considers minimum, another thinks is too restrictive. Cheers, Jackie _ _ _ _ _ \\ / \0/ \ / \0/ \ \\ " " `\ ,sSSs,\, )\w/( ,sSS..)/{) <<..> sSSS_v)/ \ )<*> sSS[(\_]___\ <(_/_o_o_ 'sS[_`-+---+) \----+-------+-------'---`-----\-------------') ~~~~~~~ ~~jf ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~\~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ o \ o \\ o o \\ o o ` (\ o o >jf:-) o (/ o *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
> > basic I mean PFD, paddlefloat, whistle). We tested a couple of whistles last summer. They would both make my ears ring when I blew them, but at 200 yards my partners said that the sound was not loud enough to call their attention. - Julio *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Jackie Fenton wrote: >There are some who feel very strongly about keeping the group together. >When a paddler disappears over the horizon and out of sight, it's >difficult for others to know whether that paddler is ok, might be in need >of help, whatever. Also, paddlers that leave the group are not around if >their assistance might be needed. [SNIP] I agree, when I mean leave the group, I mean actually telling the group "I have enjoyed our trip together thus far, but tomorrow I am going to paddle to X". Instead of "Screw this crossing and y'all, I'm going this way." That would be a blatant disregard for etiquette *and* safety. -Patrick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
patrick.maun_at_duffy.com wrote: > > Jackie Fenton wrote: > >There are some who feel very strongly about keeping the group together. > >When a paddler disappears over the horizon and out of sight, it's > >difficult for others to know whether that paddler is ok, might be in > need > >of help, whatever. Also, paddlers that leave the group are not around > if > >their assistance might be needed. [SNIP] > > I agree, when I mean leave the group, I mean actually telling the group > "I have enjoyed our trip together thus far, but tomorrow I am going to > paddle to X". Instead of "Screw this crossing and y'all, I'm going this way." > That would be a blatant disregard for etiquette *and* safety. > > -Patrick I think a lot depends on the preceived or known skills of the individual who is saying that he or she is flaking off to go back or some other place. A case in point that I got from Chuck Sutherland who was at one point head of the ACA's Sea Kayaking Committee (when they had one). He told me of leading a group of paddlers for a night paddle into Long Island Sound off the Connecticut coast. He had insisted that all the paddlers have had some level of proficiency. A father and son showed up in a double boat. He didn't like the way they looked but they seemed to have had all the gear, etc. The group went out and it soon became apparent that the father and son (I may have the relationship wrong here) were not going to be able to keep up at all and were pretty much complete novices. Chuck, at about a few hundred yards off shore, made the decision that they should go back. Anticipating what he was relating, I piped up "Oh, so you sent them back, good decision!" Chuck corrected me, "Ralph, are you nuts! No, I wouldn't do that! I _escorted_ them back until I could see they were on land." I know he was right. If they were as clueless as they seemed they may have gotten lost even at that short of a distance. I can't recall if the whole group came back or mostly did, before than heading off again. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
> > > > basic I mean PFD, paddlefloat, whistle). > > We tested a couple of whistles last summer. They would both make > my ears ring when I blew them, but at 200 yards my partners said > that the sound was not loud enough to call their attention. This is a good point. You don't even have to be 200 yards away if the wind is blowing the sound of the whistle away from the intended target. Whistles are good for the harbor, or maybe estuaries (read.. quiet places). But for open water paddling, we use the pressurized boat horns (can and horn can be purchased at any Marine supply house and even Walmart). My samples for club rules shouldn't be taken literal. They were only given as examples for clubs indicating what their minimum rules would be with the major point being that whatever the rules are, I think they should be given in advance of the trip where they will be enforced. However, this could open another topic of discussion... :-) Jackie _ _ _ _ _ \\ / \0/ \ / \0/ \ \\ " " `\ ,sSSs,\, )\w/( ,sSS..)/{) <<..> sSSS_v)/ \ )<*> sSS[(\_]___\ <(_/_o_o_ 'sS[_`-+---+) \----+-------+-------'---`-----\-------------') ~~~~~~~ ~~jf ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~\~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ o \ o \\ o o \\ o o ` (\ o o >jf:-) o (/ o *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Jackie wrote; (SNIP of leader/organizer discussion) >I have a problem with being told I > will do whatever the leader/coordinator instructs (ambiguous) or I won't > be invited back. As we have read here, there have been instances where > some leaders/coordinators have lead the members into conditions where > they were not prepared. I don't think the club can have it both ways... > insist the paddler is responsible for themselves yet demand that they > follow all instructions of the trip leader/coordinator. I mentioned in > a previous message that I worry this wording may send a message to the > paddler that the leader is ultimately responsible for their own safety > rather than themselves. I believe this to be a valid statement. Once a club or anyone else sets rules there is clear implication that that person or club has some expertise in the activity. I believe the extent of one's yea or nay is that you don't want to paddle with some one or suggestions regarding what you might do or not do personally. > I think a possible valuable use of a waiver is that it can be the > springboard for educating paddlers about safety and ultimately being > responsible for their own safety, the best lesson a paddler can learn, > imho. If there is any real value to a waiver this may be it. It was said elsewhere that an incorporated club will not be held liable for acts of negligence by a member but I am not sure that is so hard and fast. My experience with courts (limited to product liability and patent infringement) is that there are no absolutes. Every judge and jury is different and the law is rarely clear cut. Once an organizer or club or leader says "thou shalt" the organizer becomes a de facto authority figure and could be held responsible for all subsequent actions. For this reason I don't use the club's waiver form. Cheers John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
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