In the discussion of paddles and lightning, one factor has possibly been overlooked, the path of the lightning. Lightning causes major injury along the path it takes through the body to the ground (or water). If the lightning takes a path through the heart you die as the electrical activity of the heart is terminated. It also produces an internal injury similar to a crush injury along it's path. It may actually be better to have a conducting pole from the air, through your hands into the water as opposed to through your head into the boat or water. Yes your hands would likely be seriously burned but survival might be enhanced. The golfer with an umbrella has the current pass into his/her hand and through the body to the ground and is seriously injured, a paddler might fair differently. Other than the description of mechanism of injury this is purely theoretical (my lawyer made me say that). Martin Doerfler, MD *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Martin Doerfler wrote: > In the discussion of paddles and lightning, one factor has possibly been > overlooked, the path of the lightning. Lightning causes major injury along > the path it takes through the body to the ground (or water). If the > lightning takes a path through the heart you die as the electrical activity > of the heart is terminated. It also produces an internal injury similar to > a crush injury along it's path. It may actually be better to have a > conducting pole from the air, through your hands into the water as opposed > to through your head into the boat or water. Yes your hands would likely be > seriously burned but survival might be enhanced. The golfer with an > umbrella has the current pass into his/her hand and through the body to the > ground and is seriously injured, a paddler might fair differently. Other > than the description of mechanism of injury this is purely theoretical (my > lawyer made me say that). > > Martin Doerfler, MD > As a man who has been struck twice by lightning, the golfer Lee Trevino suggests holding a 2 iron straight up in the air, "Because even God can't hit a 2 iron." Roger > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Electricity or lightning is lazy and will always take the easiest path to ground. I suspect that a mere antennae erected for safety ( as a lightning rod) in suspect weather with a tickler feed that drags into the water might be sufficient to avert serious harm to the body. It's the amperage that kills and it only takes a few milli amps to send the heart into ventricular fibrillation. There is an elastomeric compound for sale called 'SUPER THERM' that is a 'ceramic' based coating and offers a couple of ideas that might apply for sea kayaks. This is a serious industrial coating compound. For example: On the interior permiter walls of a home the coating is sprayed on about 12 mills thick (about the thickness of a business card), it is 70 percent whiter than white paint. Benefits? It offers a flame resistance factor of about 1600 degrees F. before it will burn through. It provides the equivalent of an R-19 for insulation value. It prevents condensation below water level (i.e. ships) and helps keep cabin temperatures more pleasant. I have read letters from ship captains who no longer go to damp and cold cabin rooms. This might be ideal for a sea kayak in cold water, and it just might offer some insulation value against a migrating electrical discharge from a lightning strike. Ceramic is an excellent insulator! Food for thought here. I tested the product with a butane torch (the sleeve of an old shirt had been coated with the 'SUPER THERM' I was amazed that there was such a delay in burning a hole through. Same thing for roof shingles and pieces of wood. It does a great job insulating the inside of steel doors to keep them from warping (from the inside) during cold winters, thereby keeping a firm seal around the permiter of the door frame. The company that I know sells the product is 'Conspec Industries' here in Edmonton. If the interior cockpit area of a sea kayak were coated it just might lend for more comfort in both hot and cold climates. Moreover, it just might be sufficient to ameliorate any concerns over lightening strikes (as unlikely that might be). Best Regards, Philip Martin Doerfler wrote: > > In the discussion of paddles and lightning, one factor has possibly been > overlooked, the path of the lightning. Lightning causes major injury along > the path it takes through the body to the ground (or water). If the > lightning takes a path through the heart you die as the electrical activity > of the heart is terminated. It also produces an internal injury similar to > a crush injury along it's path. It may actually be better to have a > conducting pole from the air, through your hands into the water as opposed > to through your head into the boat or water. Yes your hands would likely be > seriously burned but survival might be enhanced. The golfer with an > umbrella has the current pass into his/her hand and through the body to the > ground and is seriously injured, a paddler might fair differently. Other > than the description of mechanism of injury this is purely theoretical (my > lawyer made me say that). > > Martin Doerfler, MD > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Handling a pole in both hands to take a jolt of lightning is not a good idea! Both hands will serve to complete a circuit for the discharge to travel through the hands and arms and across the chest area. Better to use one hand only. However, you would be required to know exactly when the lightning was going to discharge up into the atmosphere. Secondly, it would be better to keep the paddle low in the water and forget waving a rod around hoping to avoid getting hit or attracting the lightning. Your chance of being struck just went up ten fold by waving a rod in the air. The physical damage to a person by lightning depends on the potential difference between you and ground. I have witnessed (participated in) high voltage safety experiments and if you were to have high voltage lines fall on your vehicle you are best to stay in side. If you fear a gas tank fire, then you must exit. However, that exit better give you the opportunity for a long distance jump and you better land with both feet together and take only the smallest foot steps possible due to current being near the surface. The longer the step the greater the potential difference and the greater the risk of electrocution. The kayak is relatively insulated already. Just rememeber to keep the hands away from any metal on the outside of the hull. If your boat is constructed with insulator properties then the risks should be minimal I would think. Moreover, you may as well stay seated in the kayak because unless you can walk on water you arn't going to jump very far. Since salt water is such a good conductor you will have another good reason to stay put. There have been a lot of farmers who lost their cattle just from walking near the area of a lightning strike. Cheers, Philip *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
It seems to me that one reasonable strategy, with lightning approaching, would be to paddle to an island or shore with a high bank or cliff, if available. Then any strike would go to the land above you. You wouldn't necessarily need to get out of your kayak. Does this make sense to others on the list? I agree that you certainly don't want to do anything to increase your chances of getting hit! Bob Apter ---------- > From: Philip Wylie <pjwylie_at_planet.eon.net> > To: Martin Doerfler <doerfm01_at_endeavor.med.nyu.edu>; paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Lightning Solutions? > Date: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 11:04 PM > > Handling a pole in both hands to take a jolt of > lightning is not a good idea! Both hands will > serve to complete a circuit for the discharge > to travel through the hands and arms and > across the chest area. Better to use one hand only. > However, you would be required to know exactly > when the lightning was going to discharge up into > the atmosphere. Secondly, it would be better to > keep the paddle low in the water and forget > waving a rod around hoping to avoid getting hit > or attracting the lightning. > Your chance of being struck just went up ten fold > by waving a rod in the air. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Robert Apter wrote: > It seems to me that one reasonable strategy, with lightning approaching, > would be to paddle to an island or shore with a high bank or cliff, if > available. Then any strike would go to the land above you. You wouldn't > necessarily need to get out of your kayak. Does this make sense to others > on the list? I agree that you certainly don't want to do anything to > increase your chances of getting hit! > > Bob Apter > Freedom of the Hills by the Seattle Mountaineers has an interesting few pages on lightening hazards for climbers. It indicates that lightening strikes travel out and down and travels quite well across rock. They suggest avoiding rock depressions and similar places. I would guess they would suggest avoiding the base of a rock cliff -- though the base of a dirt bank might be a good idea. Peace, Brian *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 7 May 1998, Robert Apter wrote: > > It seems to me that one reasonable strategy, with lightning approaching, > would be to paddle to an island or shore with a high bank or cliff, if > available. Then any strike would go to the land above you. You wouldn't > necessarily need to get out of your kayak. Does this make sense to others > on the list? I agree that you certainly don't want to do anything to > increase your chances of getting hit! > > Bob Apter haven't heard from any river runners on this ... let's hear something ;-) to start off, are you safer on the river, since, by default, you are at the lowest point possible?? we've watched some pretty hairy storms move in, and have almost always managed to be at our cars by the time the lightening was striking, and there has always been [at least with larger groups] a mixed consensus [sp?] as to get out and hide near a tree [which i disagree with] or keep trucking and head for the cars, which i support, telling everyone to hug the banks... comments?? [oh this should be fun!!!] mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com----http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark----- # mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index to club websites i administer] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page -- Remember, even if you win the rat race -- you're still a rat. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> >haven't heard from any river runners on this ... let's hear something ;-) > >to start off, are you safer on the river, since, by default, you are at >the lowest point possible?? we've watched some pretty hairy storms move >in, and have almost always managed to be at our cars by the time the >lightening was striking, and there has always been [at least with larger >groups] a mixed consensus [sp?] as to get out and hide near a tree [which >i disagree with] or keep trucking and head for the cars, which i support, >telling everyone to hug the banks... > >comments?? [oh this should be fun!!!] > >mark FUN FUN FUN!!! How many people have paddled around lightning?, get caught in a storm with lightning? How many have been struck? To answer my own questions , all us at one time or another have been around lightning when we are paddling. I have smell the ozone smell after the strikes,had my hair stand on end and have had the crackling sensation lower from 6ft. above the water to water level. paddling with no land ( in Fla. we don't have cliffs or very high land for that matter) near by you rely on, praying to what ever religion you belong is about the best thing to do. The best thing to do is pay attention to the weather and pray if you get caught. You still stand a better chance getting killed in your auto (unless in a SUV of course) going to and from the paddle site, but no one pays much attention to that. In Florida the total deaths and injuries during the 1959-93 period were: Death 337 Injury 1039 (Boating or water related 150) vs (In open field or area 329) vs(On Golf Courses 40)vs untold of traffic deaths a year. If you are caught outside: Stay away from tall, isolated objects like trees, flagpoles, or posts, and avoid large open areas like fields or parking lots where you are the relatively highest object. Stay away from lakes, ponds, railroad tracks, and fences which could bring current from a 'far-away'lightning strike to you. If there is no shelter, crouch down, grab your ankles, and bend forward, in a position where your head is not the highest part of your body and where your head does not touch the ground. DO NOT lie flat on the ground. If lightning is about to strike you or something extremely close, you may experience a tingling feeling on your skin and/or your hair may stand on end. If this occurs, quickly get into the position described above and or pray. all this and not a soap box in sight! Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph, I believe the difference between the bunker and the car is that the bunker itself being buried in the dirt and the stell bars not being tied together was not a very good Faraday shield/box. The reason for the electrocution in the bunker was that the bottom of the bunker was probably better grounded - i.e. wetter - than the top and the human bodies were a better conducter than the non-intertied steel in the bunker walls. - What a way to go -Saul At 11:37 PM 5/7/98 -0700, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: >Dave Kruger wrote: >> >> First rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: >> >> > > 4. I can't be absolutely certain of this, but being in a folding kayak >> > > with rubber under you may offer an extra level of protection. It is >> > > similar to the principal of being in a car. The rubber tires insulate >> > > you from the ground even though you are in a metal cage!!! But you have >> > > to keep low. If you manage to drag your kayak far enough out of that >> > > high-strike zone at the water's edge, you may want to be in your boat >> > > especially if of non-conductive material. Rubber is obviously best but >> > > fiberglass and plastic are okay. But get in low, drop your head below >> > > the plain of the the cockpit rim. >> [snip] >> >> Then James Lofton wrote: >> >> > Also, I believe the reason that a person is safer in a auto during >> > lighting and what protects them when an electrical power line falls >> > across the auto, is not the rubber on the tires so much as the faraday >> > sp? box effect. I may stand corrected on this, but I believe I'm right. >> > If so, then the folding kayak skin wouldn't add any protection.(at least >> > the same as an auto does) >> [snip] >> >> Yup, James, that's my understanding, also. The electrical field inside >> a completely enclosed METALLIC cage is zero -- so the metallic cage >> (body of the car) protects its contents, *but not the car,* including >> its tires. After the strike(s), it pays to get the heck out of the >> vehicle, in case of fire, etc. Of course, all bets are off if someone >> is touching the metallic surface of the car body. >> >> Now, if the folder were a metal-framed craft, and you could suspend >> yourself between its members without touching any ... anyone for >> levitation? Ralph, better work on that! <G> > >Interesting observations. > >A few years back, I think in Rhode Island, several people took shelter >in a steel rod reinforced old concrete bunker during a storm. It had >steel rods totally around them embedded and intermeshed in the concrete >roof, walls and floors. The people inside got electrocuted. Their >metal cage, in effect, was grounded and so were they. Also indeed if >what is protecting the contents of the car when hit by a downed power >line live wire is only the electric field around the metal cage of the >car, why do people who try to step out, get killed by electric shock? >Would the same protection apply for people in a car hit by a power line >if instead of on tires, the car was up on stands, say a car whose tires >have been stolen, not unusual in some riskier put-in parking areas :-)? >BTW, my understanding is that people caught in cars when hit by a power >line _have_ touched metal within the car with no effect because indeed >the metal cage is a better conductor than their ungrounded bodies. > >Am I understanding that the argument here is against rubber as an >insulator or just the car analogy? Also, what of the examples I give >above regarding the steel cage--the steel rod reinforcement in the >concrete bunker, the person stepping out of the car with a power line on >it, in which both cases the person fried, whereas the person touching >metal within the car does not. I am just asking. > >Ralph (who only paddles foldables with wooden frames until his >levitation skills improve). :-) > >-- >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter >PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 >Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com >"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** > > Saul Kinderis - saul_at_isomedia.com (425)402-3426 - This is a new telephone number *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I don't know Ralph.?? Maybe they stole from a collection plate at church once? <G> I tend to agree more with Saul tho. The "bunker" would be in the same league as a hiking hut covered with metal I would think. Not a place you'll likely find me hunkered down in a storm! I believe you said it earlier. Something to the fact that lighting does strange things and is unpredictable. I have two high voltage transmission lines cutting across my land. One is a steel tower affair that is 200' tall. I live(roughly) within its cone of protection?? It also "attracts" a lot of strikes. I also talk on a ham radio. One hand on a mike, which is ultamantly sp? connected to a 45' tower. All during storms. Maybe you shouldn't believe anything I say about lighting safety! :>) As far as the people in the car touching the car and nothing happening. I would guess they were not in the "path".(like a bird on a power line) The moment they stepped out and touched "both" car and ground, they were in the path. I worked for a power company for a while and I know the rubber on the tires did not even inter into the equation of insulation. If you were in a vehicle with a live wire against it, you handled it like there was a "certain" percentage of current going to ground. You were to remain in the vehicle until power was turned off.(no showy jumping to safety) That in a nutshell is about all I know about it. That and bald eagles seem to not know much about lighting safty, with respect to choosing a nesting tree! James Saul Kinderis wrote: > > Ralph, > > I believe the difference between the bunker and the car is that the bunker > itself being buried in the dirt and the stell bars not being tied together > was not a very good Faraday shield/box. The reason for the electrocution in > the bunker was that the bottom of the bunker was probably better grounded - > i.e. wetter - than the top and the human bodies were a better conducter than > the non-intertied steel in the bunker walls. > > - What a way to go > > -Saul > > At 11:37 PM 5/7/98 -0700, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > >Dave Kruger wrote: > >> > >> First rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > >> > >> > > 4. I can't be absolutely certain of this, but being in a folding kayak > >> > > with rubber under you may offer an extra level of protection. It is > >> > > similar to the principal of being in a car. The rubber tires insulate > >> > > you from the ground even though you are in a metal cage!!! But you have > >> > > to keep low. If you manage to drag your kayak far enough out of that > >> > > high-strike zone at the water's edge, you may want to be in your boat > >> > > especially if of non-conductive material. Rubber is obviously best but > >> > > fiberglass and plastic are okay. But get in low, drop your head below > >> > > the plain of the the cockpit rim. > >> [snip] > >> > >> Then James Lofton wrote: > >> > >> > Also, I believe the reason that a person is safer in a auto during > >> > lighting and what protects them when an electrical power line falls > >> > across the auto, is not the rubber on the tires so much as the faraday > >> > sp? box effect. I may stand corrected on this, but I believe I'm right. > >> > If so, then the folding kayak skin wouldn't add any protection.(at least > >> > the same as an auto does) > >> [snip] > >> > >> Yup, James, that's my understanding, also. The electrical field inside > >> a completely enclosed METALLIC cage is zero -- so the metallic cage > >> (body of the car) protects its contents, *but not the car,* including > >> its tires. After the strike(s), it pays to get the heck out of the > >> vehicle, in case of fire, etc. Of course, all bets are off if someone > >> is touching the metallic surface of the car body. > >> > >> Now, if the folder were a metal-framed craft, and you could suspend > >> yourself between its members without touching any ... anyone for > >> levitation? Ralph, better work on that! <G> > > > >Interesting observations. > > > >A few years back, I think in Rhode Island, several people took shelter > >in a steel rod reinforced old concrete bunker during a storm. It had > >steel rods totally around them embedded and intermeshed in the concrete > >roof, walls and floors. The people inside got electrocuted. Their > >metal cage, in effect, was grounded and so were they. Also indeed if > >what is protecting the contents of the car when hit by a downed power > >line live wire is only the electric field around the metal cage of the > >car, why do people who try to step out, get killed by electric shock? > >Would the same protection apply for people in a car hit by a power line > >if instead of on tires, the car was up on stands, say a car whose tires > >have been stolen, not unusual in some riskier put-in parking areas :-)? > >BTW, my understanding is that people caught in cars when hit by a power > >line _have_ touched metal within the car with no effect because indeed > >the metal cage is a better conductor than their ungrounded bodies. > > > >Am I understanding that the argument here is against rubber as an > >insulator or just the car analogy? Also, what of the examples I give > >above regarding the steel cage--the steel rod reinforcement in the > >concrete bunker, the person stepping out of the car with a power line on > >it, in which both cases the person fried, whereas the person touching > >metal within the car does not. I am just asking. > > > >Ralph (who only paddles foldables with wooden frames until his > >levitation skills improve). :-) > > > >-- > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Saul Kinderis - saul_at_isomedia.com (425)402-3426 - This is a new telephone > number > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Mark wrote; (SNIP) >to start off, are you safer on the river, since, by default, you are at >the lowest point possible?? we've watched some pretty hairy storms move >in, and have almost always managed to be at our cars by the time the >lightening was striking, and there has always been [at least with larger >groups] a mixed consensus [sp?] as to get out and hide near a tree [which >i disagree with] or keep trucking and head for the cars, which i support, >telling everyone to hug the banks... > My understanding is that some trees (in particular high pines) seem to attract lightning more than others. The zone of protection that I have been told about is to imagine a forty-five degree cone around the highest object. Not sure if this is infallible just better than nothing. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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