Kevin I am the deleted one, or is that delighted one. Thanks for the practical applications with the Greenland paddle. What I was asking for, aware that a novel is not in the works, was as much detail as you could spare the time for. Such as, your paddle dimensions, blade shape - if it is anything out of the usual range. With the cruising stroke is the leading edge angled toward or away from the boat, and what is the path through the water. The wing technique is clear but for the attack angle - away from the boat? Tip speed, if I get you right, the upper hand pulling down at the end of the stroke is important. Thanks again Terry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Terry, Sorry for the slow response. I had hoped to get water time this weekend to really formalize my technique to give you a clear answer, but a sick kitty prevented this. Still, I can give you a pretty good idea I think. A little terminology first... The leading edge is in the direction of lateral (or slicing) motion of the stroke, so the leading edge switches sides of the paddle blade during the midway part of the stroke. I always try to keep the leading edge closer to the bow of the boat than the trailing edge, because this produces lift in the forward direction. During the cruising stroke, with my arms tucked in close to the body, I switch the feather of my paddle halfway through, to maintain a positive angle of attack, It is harder to maintain a proper angle of attack during the first half of the stroke however, so I often very quickly slice the paddle downward so that I apply very little power during a negative angle of attack. Then I use the upward motion of the paddle to apply most of the torso rotation power. The wing stroke is essentially similar to the latter scenario. I think if you concentrate on maintaining the proper angle of attack during all phases of the stroke, you will figure out the proper paddle motion on your own. Let me know how it goes. Just remember that the slicing motion is just an additional velocity component to normal modern paddling technique. My paddling uses normal tehnique as a basis, and only adds to it, but does not change its essence. Cheers, Kevin /--------------------------------------------\ /---------------------------\ |Something there is that doesn't love a wall | Kevin Whilden | |That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it | kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu | |And spills the upper boulders in the sun | Dept. of Geologic Science | |And makes gaps that even two can pass abreast| University of Washington | | -- Robert Frost |(206)543-1975(w) 632-5140(h)| \--------------------------------------------/ \---------------------------/ On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, gordon terry asselstine wrote: > Kevin > I am the deleted one, or is that delighted one. Thanks for the practical > applications with the Greenland paddle. What I was asking for, aware that a > novel is not in the works, was as much detail as you could spare the time > for. Such as, your paddle dimensions, blade shape - if it is anything out > of the usual range. With the cruising stroke is the leading edge angled > toward or away from the boat, and what is the path through the water. The > wing technique is clear but for the attack angle - away from the boat? Tip > speed, if I get you right, the upper hand pulling down at the end of the > stroke is important. > > Thanks again > > Terry > > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:50 PM -0700 7/26/98, K. Whilden wrote: >During the cruising stroke, with my arms tucked in close to the body, I >switch the feather of my paddle halfway through, to maintain a positive >angle of attack, It is harder to maintain a proper angle of attack during >the first half of the stroke however, so I often very quickly slice the >paddle downward so that I apply very little power during a negative angle >of attack. Then I use the upward motion of the paddle to apply most of the >torso rotation power. The wing stroke is essentially similar to the latter >scenario. VERY unscientific test this weekend: I did the stroke Kevin describes above, maintaining a positive angle of attack on both the entry and the exit part of the stroke. Kevin is right, it does work and it turns out this is basically my standard stroke, I just hadn't really paid much attention before. Then I tried it with several of my greenland paddles (note I was using a modern paddle before) and it does give a more solid feel, tending to reduce the tendancy for the paddle to flutter. Presumably instead of shedding vortices off alternating edges, it keeps the vortex on one side. It was hard to say whether there was any difference in efficiency between a straight pull and a pull with positive angle of attack. I moved along just fine with or without the positive AoA. I forget if this positive AoA stroke technique was supposed to be a unique ability of a greenland style stroke. I expect if most people examined their stroke they would see that they do it to a certain extent no matter what kind of paddle they use. An advantage for most people is that by angling the power face of the paddle down they get a little brace at the beginning of their stroke. Angling the powerface up during the exit just comes naturally. Any increase in efficiency is worthwhile but probably not unique to any particular paddle. I'll stick with my modern paddle for most of my paddling, keeping my greenland paddles for playing around with rolls. I still have not heard any greenland technique which I can not reproduce with my modern paddle and for the paddling I like doing my modern blade works better for me. Nick Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks c/o Newfound Woodworks, 67 Danforth Brook Rd, Bristol, NH 03222 (603) 744-6872 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I also experimented with positive angle of attack, versus the original negative "digging" angle. The main difference was that with the positive angle of attack one can brace and at the same time move forward. With the negative angle, bracing requires a quick movement of the wrist in order to get an upward lift. The thing that became very annoying about the positive angle, however, was the loud 'ploupf' that the paddle makes when entering the water with positive angles. The original negative angle stroke is completely silent. The European paddle has more acceleration than the Greenland paddle, for the same paddling rate. That is, one can accelerate quickly with a Greenland paddle by using a very fast cadence --paddle like crazy. But for surfing and other activities that may require quick and short accelerations, the European paddle is more adequate. Maybe a quick acceleration is the only Europan style stroke than can hardly be done with a Greenland paddle, unless you folks know more of those. There is an interesting paddle that seems to be something in between, that is the Aleut paddle. It is narrow, but not that narrow, and the foil profile is not symmetrical. Some subscribers to the baidarka list are saying very good things about it. Have any of you folks tried one those? - Julio > > At 11:50 PM -0700 7/26/98, K. Whilden wrote: > > >During the cruising stroke, with my arms tucked in close to the body, I > >switch the feather of my paddle halfway through, to maintain a positive > >angle of attack, It is harder to maintain a proper angle of attack during > >the first half of the stroke however, so I often very quickly slice the > >paddle downward so that I apply very little power during a negative angle > >of attack. Then I use the upward motion of the paddle to apply most of the > >torso rotation power. The wing stroke is essentially similar to the latter > >scenario. > > > VERY unscientific test this weekend: I did the stroke Kevin describes > above, maintaining a positive angle of attack on both the entry and the > exit part of the stroke. Kevin is right, it does work and it turns out this > is basically my standard stroke, I just hadn't really paid much attention > before. Then I tried it with several of my greenland paddles (note I was > using a modern paddle before) and it does give a more solid feel, tending > to reduce the tendancy for the paddle to flutter. Presumably instead of > shedding vortices off alternating edges, it keeps the vortex on one side. > It was hard to say whether there was any difference in efficiency between a > straight pull and a pull with positive angle of attack. I moved along just > fine with or without the positive AoA. > > I forget if this positive AoA stroke technique was supposed to be a unique > ability of a greenland style stroke. I expect if most people examined their > stroke they would see that they do it to a certain extent no matter what > kind of paddle they use. An advantage for most people is that by angling > the power face of the paddle down they get a little brace at the beginning > of their stroke. Angling the powerface up during the exit just comes > naturally. Any increase in efficiency is worthwhile but probably not unique > to any particular paddle. > > I'll stick with my modern paddle for most of my paddling, keeping my > greenland paddles for playing around with rolls. I still have not heard any > greenland technique which I can not reproduce with my modern paddle and for > the paddling I like doing my modern blade works better for me. > > Nick > > > > Nick Schade > Guillemot Kayaks > c/o Newfound Woodworks, 67 Danforth Brook Rd, Bristol, NH 03222 > (603) 744-6872 > > Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com > http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ > > >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I have been paddling for just a few months and have possibly overdone it. To begin with, I already have arthritis in my hands - it's quite manageable, just some soreness after periods of inactivity, or too much activity. After a weekend of morning paddling each day, and a day of lessons the next weekend, my hands are still unusually sore several days later. It is one specific area - the muscles around the base of the thumb, and going up into the thumb, and the muscles inbetween the thumb and the rest of the fingers. I wear my bicycle gloves (a padded palm, fingers cut out) to paddle, so as to prevent blisters. I already am working on loosening my beginner's death-grip on the paddle, and perhaps this is all the problem. My question to more experienced paddlers is this : how do you handle this? Once you know what you are doing and are reasonably proficient, do you still have problems of this type? Are there particular hand stretches or activities that are helpful, once you are in this condition (or to prevent it)? Could the gloves themselves be part of the problem? Could it be from too big a paddle shaft (even though it doesn't feel too big)? And, most importantly, will somebody please tell me what I want to hear: it will only get better if you go paddling MORE! Thanks Anne Burton *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:34 PM 7/27/98 +0000, you wrote: > >It is one specific area - the muscles around the base of the >thumb, and going up into the thumb, and the muscles inbetween >the thumb and the rest of the fingers. I wear my bicycle >gloves (a padded palm, fingers cut out) to paddle, so as to >prevent blisters. I already am working on loosening my >beginner's death-grip on the paddle, and perhaps this is all >the problem. > >My question to more experienced paddlers is this : >how do you handle this? Once you know what you are doing and >are reasonably proficient, do you still have problems of this >type? Are there particular hand stretches or activities that >are helpful, once you are in this condition (or to prevent it)? >Could the gloves themselves be part of the problem? Could it >be from too big a paddle shaft (even though it doesn't feel too >big)? > >And, most importantly, will somebody please tell me what I want >to hear: it will only get better if you go paddling MORE! > >Thanks > >Anne Burton Get rid of the gloves!!! These are making you grasp the paddle much tighter than you need too. (I developed "tennis elbow" this winter with neoprene gloves.) You'll note that the area of padding in a cycling glove is around the base of the thumb and heel of the hand. This is interfering with your grip. You can help prevent blisters by making sure the paddle shaft is smooth. And then keep the shaft and your hands wet. Blisters form when skin is slightly moist and rubs against something. If the skin is dry, no blisters. If the skin is wet, no blisters. I get blisters on the lower knuckle of the thumb. . . I find that a bit of sun-tan lotion in that area allows for some "slide" and helps with the blisters. Goes without saying that the feathered paddle is hard on the wrist joints. Both my doctor and my paddling instructor advise to loosen the grip on the "uphill" hand when paddling. I loosen the grip with all but the middle finger, and hold that against the crook in the thumb. No need to wrap the thumb much. Pull with the fingers on the "downhill" hand and use the thumb just to keep the paddle in place. But mostly get rid of the cycling gloves! These are made for LEANING on handlebars, not gripping a paddle. More paddling helps. . . but go with the flow! Don't push the river! ______________________________ George Bergeron, Secretary '99 Oswego Heritage Council http://www.europa.com/~heritage/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I use a fingerless sailing glove which has a kevlar palm and provides just enough protection to prevent blisters. I play guitar professionally and can't afford ANY chafing or blistering on my left hand. cya *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> Get rid of the gloves!!! These are making you grasp the paddle > much > tighter than you need too. (I developed "tennis elbow" this winter > with > neoprene gloves.) > [>] This spring I paddled with fleece gloves with leather palms and thought my control hand was going to fall off after a couple of hours. Soon as I took the glove off everything relaxed. Guess I had a death grip on the paddle. > Goes without saying that the feathered paddle is hard on the > wrist joints. > Both my doctor and my paddling instructor advise to loosen the grip on > the > "uphill" hand when paddling. I loosen the grip with all but the middle > finger, and hold that against the crook in the thumb. No need to wrap > the > thumb much. Pull with the fingers on the "downhill" hand and use the > thumb > just to keep the paddle in place. > [>] I was taught to extend the fingers outward in a flexing motion on the non-stroking (uphill?) hand. This provides relaxation and keeps the blood pumping. > More paddling helps. . . but go with the flow! Don't push the > river! > [>] Proper paddling technique will help. If it hurts, you probably ain't doing it right. I think the thing that's helped me the most this year is keeping my hands closer to the edge of the kayak than the center line through a stroke. This seems to keeps me from bending my wrist back as far. I've also started to do wrist curl and reverse wrist curl exercises to help strenghtened. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> > I have been paddling for just a few months and have possibly >overdone it. To begin with, I already have arthritis in my >hands - it's quite manageable, just some soreness after >periods of inactivity, or too much activity. After a weekend of >morning paddling each day, and a day of lessons the next >weekend, my hands are still unusually sore several days later. > I'm a new paddler too, and I too have "arthritis;" actually, I believe it is my tendons which are a bit sore rather than the joints. I think what you are describing sounds more like tendons and connective tissue than arthritis. But my soreness seems to be working itself out. ...and, I'm working on a few callouses as well. I think the tenderness is a combination of gripping the paddle too hard and simply doing too much too soon. It is difficult to ease off a bit particularly in surf or rough conditions. Probably better to go for "easy" paddles in the beginning, or at least until most of the soreness goes away. Tendons generally take awhile to toughen up. (In fact, the callouses might be an interesting guage as to how the tendons are toughing up as well.) I have been told when nursing a foot injury (sprained ankle) that alternating hot/cold on the injury will enhance the circulation to the injury and assist healing. Tendons and bone have less circulation and thus, take longer to become conditioned to increased levels of activity and stress. Muscles are relatively "fast" tissues in terms of gas saturations and the tendons and bones are "slow" tissues. Fast tissues recover quicker, but you need to recover (this is when the physiological training takes place, during recovery) based upon your slow tissues. Gronseth teaches (I took his 5 day class) stretching exercises for the wrist: Flex the wrist up, pulling on the tips of the fingers, flex down, pressing on the back of the hand; flex to the sides by (a) pulling the thumb towards the radius; (b) flex to the other side twisting the flattened hand towards the ulna. Gronseth suggested stretching before the paddle. Studies with runners (I know, a different set of muscles, but I think this applies here also) demonstrate that fewer injuries have occured when the stretching is done AFTER the exercise than before the exercise. Thus, based on the running studies, I prefer very light stretching before a paddle followed by a few stretching breaks during the paddle and longer stretching after the paddle. CAVEAT: When stretching, start slow i.e. apply light pressure and slowly increase the pressure; if stretching hurts, you are stretching too much! >It is one specific area - the muscles around the base of the >thumb, and going up into the thumb, and the muscles inbetween >the thumb and the rest of the fingers. Gronseth also stressed keeping your hands parallel with the forearm to reduce the chance of stress injury to the wrist; i.e., open the hand slighly when pushing the paddle forward on the blade that is out of the water. instead of gripping the blade. Robert *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Julio MacWilliams wrote: > I also experimented with positive angle of attack, versus the > original negative "digging" angle. The main difference was that > with the positive angle of attack one can brace and at the same time > move forward. With the negative angle, bracing requires a quick > movement of the wrist in order to get an upward lift. > > The thing that became very annoying about the positive angle, however, > was the loud 'ploupf' that the paddle makes when entering the > water with positive angles. The original negative angle stroke > is completely silent. I've heard from George that the end of the paddle needs to approximate the shape of a very well used bar of soap, and that will minimize the splooshing as each end enters the water. It seems to work for me as well. > The European paddle has more acceleration than the Greenland paddle, > for the same paddling rate. That is, one can accelerate quickly with > a Greenland paddle by using a very fast cadence --paddle like crazy. > But for surfing and other activities that may require quick and > short accelerations, the European paddle is more adequate. Using the extended wing paddle technique, I have plenty of acceleration for catching waves, although I do agree that there is more power availble from a large bladed modern paddle. The smaller bladed modern paddles are worse than a greenland paddle, IMO. > > Maybe a quick acceleration is the only Europan style stroke than > can hardly be done with a Greenland paddle, unless you folks know more > of those. > > There is an interesting paddle that seems to be something in between, > that is the Aleut paddle. It is narrow, but not that narrow, and > the foil profile is not symmetrical. Some subscribers to the baidarka list > are saying very good things about it. Have any of you folks tried one those? > I've heard a little bit about these, and I am considering modifying my paddle to approximate an Aleautian style. I think a little assymetry in the blade might be a good thing, although nothing nearly like the asymmetry of a modern wing paddle. Cheers, Kevin > - Julio > > > > > At 11:50 PM -0700 7/26/98, K. Whilden wrote: > > > > >During the cruising stroke, with my arms tucked in close to the body, I > > >switch the feather of my paddle halfway through, to maintain a positive > > >angle of attack, It is harder to maintain a proper angle of attack during > > >the first half of the stroke however, so I often very quickly slice the > > >paddle downward so that I apply very little power during a negative angle > > >of attack. Then I use the upward motion of the paddle to apply most of the > > >torso rotation power. The wing stroke is essentially similar to the latter > > >scenario. > > > > > > VERY unscientific test this weekend: I did the stroke Kevin describes > > above, maintaining a positive angle of attack on both the entry and the > > exit part of the stroke. Kevin is right, it does work and it turns out this > > is basically my standard stroke, I just hadn't really paid much attention > > before. Then I tried it with several of my greenland paddles (note I was > > using a modern paddle before) and it does give a more solid feel, tending > > to reduce the tendancy for the paddle to flutter. Presumably instead of > > shedding vortices off alternating edges, it keeps the vortex on one side. > > It was hard to say whether there was any difference in efficiency between a > > straight pull and a pull with positive angle of attack. I moved along just > > fine with or without the positive AoA. > > > > I forget if this positive AoA stroke technique was supposed to be a unique > > ability of a greenland style stroke. I expect if most people examined their > > stroke they would see that they do it to a certain extent no matter what > > kind of paddle they use. An advantage for most people is that by angling > > the power face of the paddle down they get a little brace at the beginning > > of their stroke. Angling the powerface up during the exit just comes > > naturally. Any increase in efficiency is worthwhile but probably not unique > > to any particular paddle. > > > > I'll stick with my modern paddle for most of my paddling, keeping my > > greenland paddles for playing around with rolls. I still have not heard any > > greenland technique which I can not reproduce with my modern paddle and for > > the paddling I like doing my modern blade works better for me. > > > > Nick > > > > > > > > Nick Schade > > Guillemot Kayaks > > c/o Newfound Woodworks, 67 Danforth Brook Rd, Bristol, NH 03222 > > (603) 744-6872 > > > > Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com > > http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ > > > > >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< > > > > > > *************************************************************************** > > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > > *************************************************************************** > > > > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Julio MacWilliams wrote: > There is an interesting paddle that seems to be something in between, > that is the Aleut paddle. It is narrow, but not that narrow, and > the foil profile is not symmetrical. Some subscribers to the baidarka list > are saying very good things about it. Have any of you folks tried one those? I've used one a little bit. The one I tried was different than the one pictured in David Zimmerly's book "Qajaq". The one in "Qajaq" looks like it has a ridge on both faces. The one I tried had a flat non-power face but a ridge on the power face. I felt I had a better "bite" on the water using the non-power side than the power side. The paddle also had no noticable flutter when I paddled hard. kirk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Nick wrote; (SNIP) > >I forget if this positive AoA stroke technique was supposed to be a unique >ability of a greenland style stroke. I expect if most people examined their >stroke they would see that they do it to a certain extent no matter what >kind of paddle they use. An advantage for most people is that by angling >the power face of the paddle down they get a little brace at the beginning >of their stroke. Angling the powerface up during the exit just comes >naturally. Any increase in efficiency is worthwhile but probably not unique >to any particular paddle. > >I'll stick with my modern paddle for most of my paddling, keeping my >greenland paddles for playing around with rolls. I still have not heard any >greenland technique which I can not reproduce with my modern paddle and for >the paddling I like doing my modern blade works better for me. > I did a similar unscientific test and found that it was awkward because of the conscious effort to rotate the paddle at the correct time. Then yesterday evening I quit thinking about it and found the same thing that Nick found i.e. the angle of attack seems to change naturally although in my case the angle did not change at the midpoint but when the recovery stage began. Too much thinking seems to spoil the stroke. :-) I believe Nick's assessment of why flutter is reduced and that may explain why flutter has never been a big problem for me since I use the wing style of stroke and the paddle usually has an angle of attack less than 90 degrees. One of the things that interests me is whether the HAR paddle really has laminar flow. If I recall correctly the laminar flow type wing stalls more readily than the normal lifting sections. If some one with a good paddle can give me the offsets for the paddle section maybe I can find a similar section in the published literature that will shed some light on this. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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