here's the situation. you announce a club trip, at a generally popular place, and the announcement goes out with 2 months notice in the club's newsletter. it also goes to the club website. the "event" is two day trips in the area [not same place both days]. at what point do you say: "there's been no interest, trip is cancelled" and then start telling everyone [if anyone] who calls, that very thing?? no calls by the wednesday before [it's a 4 hour drive, and the leaders leaving friday noon, but has to make reservations for friday night, by noon thursday]... do that many people really wait until thursday & friday to call the coodinator?? what sayest you all?? mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index of Paddling websites I manage] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page #-Fortune: Death is Nature's way of recycling human beings. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 98-07-09 00:41:31 EDT, Mark Zen at canoeist_at_netbox.com writes: << ... do that many people really wait until thursday & friday to call the coodinator [with their interest in a planned trip]?? what sayest you all?? >> Unfortunately, we sea kayakers typically tend to be a pretty relaxed, informal "group" of individuals, and I think some of us border on the dysfunctional when it comes to planning. (I place myself in that last category on occasion, so I'm not picking a fight here.) Having been part of the problem as well as the disgruntled coordinator of events similar to whatever got up Mark's nose --- unless his scenario is only hypothetical, which I doubt --- I know many of us don't have a good sense of ettiquette when it comes to participation in planned events. It's hard work coordinating a workshop or a trip, it takes advance planning and a lot of time, and we, as a group, need to be more aware of the impact we have in trying to do last minute adjustments and planning. I share your frustration, Mark, but I don't have any solutions other than to share my own occasional sense of grouphobia with these two lists. The "solo paddling" thread on PaddleWise has said a lot about sea kayakers --- that we tend to be pretty independent, not necessarily asocial, but not usually the "joiners" of the world, and that we tend to like it that way. Makes it pretty hard to get us organized! Now, 'scuse me, but I've <really> got to call that guy about this weekend's trip ..... Joq *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
do that many >people really wait until thursday & friday to call the coodinator?? > >what sayest you all?? > >mark Mark for me it seems that most people wait till the last moment to call I guess they want to see if anything better comes along.If reservations are involved ( ussally can cancel with 24 hour notice) I would cancel Wed. night Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Mark Zen wrote: > > > do that many > > people really wait until thursday & friday to call the coordinator?? > >what sayest you all?? Yeah, lots of folks who are "hot to paddle this weekend" have not made a commitment (in their minds) equivalent to what a considerate human being should. Your status as a rep of the paddling club complicates things, but, FWIW, here is the way I operate for simple weekend paddles: 1. Announce trip to buddies/potential paddling partners a couple weeks ahead of time. 2. Make my own preparations (food, tent partner, shuttle, etc.) for me and my own self-contained unit -- usually my SO and me. Sometimes one other person I KNOW honors commitments. 3. Make NO other arrangements for others, *including lodging, ferry reservations, etc.* Leave all that up to them. If they make them, they benefit from the arrangements. 4. Evening before the drive to launch point: tally phone calls to me to get a count of paddlers and where/when we will meet. This process filters out the flakes. In my experience, lots of folks, these days, treat their obligations lightly. Those that do, do not get invited a third time (I give 'em two chances). For longer trips, or for distant places, I arrange to extract some cash -- to defray my ahead-of-time investment in ferry reservations, campsite fees, food costs, etc. -- WAY ahead of time. In my experience, the cash makes people think a little more realistically about their interest in the trip. After I have been on a trip with someone, then I know whether they honor their commitments, and the rules change. I like the old adage: "First time you screw me over, it's your fault. Second time, it's MY fault." -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR crusty old booger-dude *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Mark Zen wrote: > > here's the situation.... at what point do you say: > "there's been no interest, trip is cancelled" and then start telling > everyone [if anyone] who calls, that very thing?? no calls by the wednesday > before [it's a 4 hour drive, and the leaders leaving friday noon, but has > to make reservations for friday night, by noon thursday]... do that many > people really wait until thursday & friday to call the coodinator?? > Our club does mostly day trips, and very few need any kind of reservations. So, yes, many people call the coordinator on Thursday or Friday for a Saturday trip. If it really makes a difference, as in the case of needing reservations, perhaps your announcement could say "Sign-ups close at 9:00 PM Wednesday" or some such. I believe that a person who takes his own time to volunteer to lead a trip for others' enjoyment has the right to dictate terms. My instructors can tell you that as the Training Director I don't tell them where or when to hold clinics or how many people they should accept. Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:31 AM 7/9/98 -0700, dkruger_at_pacifier.com wrote: >Mark Zen wrote: >> >> > do that many >> > people really wait until thursday & friday to call the coordinator?? > >> >what sayest you all?? > I have found peer pressure to be a good tool for weeding out the no shows. Since we usually limit the number of people somewhat, most people commit early. We do most of our trip planning via E-mail and seldom get anyone who commits not showing up - when they do back out they usually back out 2 or more days in advance. How do we do it - we plan the meals about a week out - so if someone bails they hear about it from their friends who had to scramble to improvise a meal. If they let us know in advance we just move the meals around. The problem of last minute additions - we make them responsible for "refreshments". Reservations for campgrounds - we usually go to fairly remote or difficult to access places but when we need to make them we either collect $$$ in advance or each person makes there own. Also if someone frequently bails without advance notice we quit inviting them All in all it works pretty well. Of the last 10-12 multi day trips we haven't had anyone bail out with less than 5 days notice. Saul Kinderis saul_at_isomedia.com tel:(425)402-3426 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
My experience in such situations is not with sea kayaking trips, but is similar. I have led a number of other trips for a local outing club and have found that very often people will wait until the last minute to sign up for the trip -- even one where it is obvious that advance arrangements must be made. I remember one weekend snowshoe trip I led with room for 8 people. The trip was posted for a month and only 5 people signed up, but that was still enough to go. I was doing the kitchen arrangements, so I did the shopping and packing Thursday evening (we were leaving Friday after work). I got not one, not two, but three calls from people at about 9:00 p.m. Thursday evening who wanted to go on the trip. I wonder when they expected me to make the advanced preparations? I had room for all three, but turned them down because I didn't want to redo the kitchen. I guess I just got hard-nosed about it after that, and if people called me at the last minute, I turned them down, even for trips that didn't require advanced preparation. I figured that I've got to train people that they have to plan ahead for these types of things, and there are consequences (i.e. not going along) if they don't. >---------- >From: Mark Zen[SMTP:canoeist_at_netbox.com] >Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 1998 11:08 PM >To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net; CPAKayaker_at_lists.shire.net >Subject: [Paddlewise] etiquette > >here's the situation. you announce a club trip, at a generally popular >place, and the announcement goes out with 2 months notice in the club's >newsletter. it also goes to the club website. the "event" is two day >trips in the area [not same place both days]. at what point do you say: >"there's been no interest, trip is cancelled" and then start telling >everyone [if anyone] who calls, that very thing?? no calls by the wednesday >before [it's a 4 hour drive, and the leaders leaving friday noon, but has >to make reservations for friday night, by noon thursday]... do that many >people really wait until thursday & friday to call the coodinator?? > >what sayest you all?? > >mark > > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I hate it when people call as I am packing or trying to get to the rendezvous on time. One consequence of accepting people at the last minute is that they might be less prepared than they should be, especially if they are novices. Whenever I led an overnight trip for the North Star Ski Touring club, I tried to schedule a planning meeting about a week before the trip to arrange carpooling and other resources, hand out maps and minimum impact rules, and so forth. It was generally the people who missed the meeting who were the biggest problem. One woman who missed the meeting for a beginners' winter camping trip also failed to read the literature I sent her. She not only showed up in jeans, but brought the wrong food. Needless to say, she was the only one who suffered from the cold. Chuck Holst -----Original Message----- From: Larry Snow [mailto:larry.snow_at_deltec.com] Sent: Thursday, July 09, 1998 3:13 PM To: 'paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] etiquette My experience in such situations is not with sea kayaking trips, but is similar. I have led a number of other trips for a local outing club and have found that very often people will wait until the last minute to sign up for the trip -- even one where it is obvious that advance arrangements must be made. I remember one weekend snowshoe trip I led with room for 8 people. The trip was posted for a month and only 5 people signed up, but that was still enough to go. I was doing the kitchen arrangements, so I did the shopping and packing Thursday evening (we were leaving Friday after work). I got not one, not two, but three calls from people at about 9:00 p.m. Thursday evening who wanted to go on the trip. I wonder when they expected me to make the advanced preparations? I had room for all three, but turned them down because I didn't want to redo the kitchen. I guess I just got hard-nosed about it after that, and if people called me at the last minute, I turned them down, even for trips that didn't require advanced preparation. I figured that I've got to train people that they have to plan ahead for these types of things, and there are consequences (i.e. not going along) if they don't. >---------- >From: Mark Zen[SMTP:canoeist_at_netbox.com] >Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 1998 11:08 PM >To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net; CPAKayaker_at_lists.shire.net >Subject: [Paddlewise] etiquette > >here's the situation. you announce a club trip, at a generally popular >place, and the announcement goes out with 2 months notice in the club's >newsletter. it also goes to the club website. the "event" is two day >trips in the area [not same place both days]. at what point do you say: >"there's been no interest, trip is cancelled" and then start telling >everyone [if anyone] who calls, that very thing?? no calls by the wednesday >before [it's a 4 hour drive, and the leaders leaving friday noon, but has >to make reservations for friday night, by noon thursday]... do that many >people really wait until thursday & friday to call the coodinator?? > >what sayest you all?? > >mark > > > ************************************************************************** * PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ************************************************************************** * ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from multitech.com by multitech.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9c for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Jul09.151354.1944.301439; Thu, 09 Jul 1998 15:13:54 -0500 Received: from ns1.intelenet.net ([204.182.160.31]) by gateway.multitech.com with ESMTP id <16132>; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:57:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA07672 Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:55:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (intelenet.net [204.182.160.1]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA07668 Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.deltec.com (mail.deltec.com [199.5.243.7]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA16339 for <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net>; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:55:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nts21.deltec.com (unverified [172.27.10.16]) by nts25.deltec.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id <B0000002039_at_nts25.deltec.com>; Thu, 09 Jul 1998 14:55:38 -0500 Received: by nts21.deltec.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BDAB0A.AED26A90_at_nts21.deltec.com>; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:25:00 -0500 Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=Smiths.Industrie%l=NTS21-980709122459Z-77654_at_nts21.deltec.com> From: Larry Snow <larry.snow_at_deltec.com> To: "'paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net'" <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] etiquette Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:24:59 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Larry Snow wrote: [SNIP] > I figured that I've got to train people that they have to plan ahead for >these types of things, and there are consequences (i.e. not going along) >if they don't. Yes, but many of us don't have the luxury of planning ahead for trips. I often don't know if I can go on a trip up until the afternoon I am supposed to leave. That's just the way it is in high-stress businesses (in my case advertising). I always let the group coordinator know ahead of time that I am panning on going but that I may have to cancel at the last minute. -Patrick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 03:40 PM 7/9/98 +0000, Patrick Maun wrote: >Larry Snow wrote: >[SNIP] >> I figured that I've got to train people that they have to plan ahead for >>these types of things, and there are consequences (i.e. not going along) >>if they don't. > >Yes, but many of us don't have the luxury of planning ahead for trips. I often don't know if I can go on a trip up until the afternoon I am supposed to leave. That's just the way it is in high-stress businesses (in my case advertising). I always let the group coordinator know ahead of time that I am panning on going but that I may have to cancel at the last minute. >-Patrick > At least you let them know you might be able to make it ahead of time. If you did not call till the last minute to inquire then you would need to be trained like Larry is talking about Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Mark wrote; (SNIP) >do that many >people really wait until thursday & friday to call the coodinator?? > Happens all the time. People plan poorly. When I cancel a trip it stays cancelled even if I am going myself. The deadline for notifying me is in our club newsletter(s) and I assume one can read if you call at all. Anyone who wants a last minute paddle can do their own. They don't need me and probably wouldn't enjoy paddling with some one who expects people to pay attention and honour commitments. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: --snip-- > Happens all the time. People plan poorly. When I cancel a trip it stays > cancelled even if I am going myself. The deadline for notifying me is in > our club newsletter(s) and I assume one can read if you call at all. > > Anyone who wants a last minute paddle can do their own. They don't need me > and probably wouldn't enjoy paddling with some one who expects people to > pay attention and honour commitments. And thus speaks the only person on record for having to cancel a well attended trip at the put-in due to the canoes being too broad to fit through the manhole cover. Richard Culpeper *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Richard wrote; > >> Happens all the time. People plan poorly. When I cancel a trip it stays >> cancelled even if I am going myself. The deadline for notifying me is in >> our club newsletter(s) and I assume one can read if you call at all. >> >> Anyone who wants a last minute paddle can do their own. They don't need me >> and probably wouldn't enjoy paddling with some one who expects people to >> pay attention and honour commitments. > >And thus speaks the only person on record for having to cancel a well attended >trip at the put-in due to the canoes being too broad to fit through the manhole >cover. > It was the only reasonable thing to do. We could have forced the boats through but the boats would have been damaged and I do not think a leaky boat is suitable on a dangerous piece of water like the Bloor sewer. The WCA Sewer Surfers have an exceptional safety record and that is mostly do (in my opinion) to our strict requirement that all equipment be suitable for sewer surfing. Besides, the trip would have been a failure anyway since the Tim Hortons at Queen and Dundas was closed for renovations. Incidentally, the drought we are experiencing here in Ontario has severely curtailed sewer surfing. Three spring trips had to be cancelled or shortened and all summer trips have been cancelled. The Sewer Surfers gathered at High Park last week for a prayer meeting a vigil for rain. Three virgins were sacrificed to Cloacina but the skies remain clear. Maybe they weren't virgins after all. Is this a sign of declining morals in Toronto? Perhaps we can sacrifice the Spice Girls. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:32:50 PDT