>This was a common problem with the Valley type skeg on my Romany, and is a >major reason I decided to go with a P&H Sirius to replace my stolen Romany >Explorer (blue, SN# DKJ95581595). <Rant mode on> The Valley skeg would even >jam up with suspended sand in surf, rendering it a totally useless piece of >junk. Yes, I'm being extremely harsh about the Valley skeg, but I hope they >get a clue and start using a better skeg. The Romany is a very nice boat, >but the skeg is an abysmally poor piece of equipment. <Rant mode off> > >The P&H skeg is far superior, you dont have to reach behind you to use it, >and I know people who have used them for years without ever having them >jam. I hope to be one of them in just a few days. ;-) > > >Wayne > >At 04:07 PM 9/13/98 -0500, Chuck Holst wrote about his Romany skeg: >> >>And if you own a kayak with a skeg, check the skeg every time you put >>in. I never paddled a boat with a skeg. When exactly do you use it? Surfing? Can you you lean carve a turn with the skeg down? Can you turn the bow up wind with the skeg down? How often do you actually use it? The P&H web site claims that their boats are designed to weather cock slightly without the skeg. Is this true of both the Sirius and the Cappela? How about the Romany? I am a fan of Mariner boats which have a very effective, though not too comfortable for me, sliding seat. Can anyone compare a skeg to the Mariner sliding seat as an instrument for boat handling in rough windy conditions? Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
A proper designed kayak does not need a skeg or rudder. It makes it to easy to go in a straight line and arrest's a beginning kayakers learning process:} I have never gone on a club trip without someone having a rudder or skeg problem. This of course is a troll statement that will start (I hope) a thread that goes nowhere and solvers nothing. I will be at the West Coast SK symposium if you want to attack my in person. I of couse will run like hell and hide behind Mat Brose of Mariner Kayaks. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Tomckayak_at_aol.com wrote: > > A proper designed kayak does not need a skeg or rudder. ...<snip>... > I of couse will run like hell and hide behind Mat Brose of > Mariner Kayaks. Actually, it is a myth that Mariner kayaks do not come with skegs. Not only are they equiped with skegs, in most cases they actually have "adjustable" skegs, although the system is a bit different than for most other brands. :-) With Mariner yaks, the skeg is built into the hull (there is a long, moderately deep skeg running along the stern). The depth of the skeg is adjusted by sliding the seat. In my opinion, it is a shame that many of these yaks are sold with sliding seats, because the Mariner sliding seat is very heavy, uncomfortable (for many), and unnecessary. As with any adjustable system, it does simplify handling. (It also simplifies packing--you don't need to be quite as concerned about achieving the proper trim through distribution of gear). But it is not difficult to learn how to control the boat without it. Don't misunderstand me--I really like Mariner boats. But at a minimum, every Mariner yak has a fixed skeg. I don't if the Mariner literature still mentions this, but a number of years ago their literature made a big deal about the integral skeg built into the hull of their kayaks. So enough of this talk about "skeg-free" Mariner kayaks! :-) Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>>A proper designed kayak does not need a skeg or rudder. A bit like saying a properly designed guitar doesn't need tuning pegs. A yak is either going to be a solid tracker or easy to lean and turn. I've never found a boat that would do both. I've found the skeg on my Nordkapp allows me to tune the performance of the boat based on wind direction and sea conditions. The maximum I extend the skeg is around 2 inches which gives me excellent tracking. when I am exploring or in light moderate winds I keep the skeg retracted. cya Bob Denton *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, 14 Sep 1998 Tomckayak_at_aol.com wrote: > A proper designed kayak does not need a skeg or rudder. Hey, let's face it, rudders and skegs both are problematic... but from my experiences, they're somewhat necessary to add versatility to a boat. I like to paddle in all conditions, calm days at one extreme to big winds and waves at the other extreme. I've never met a boat that handles both extremes well without a rudder or skeg. Perhaps what you're referring to is a boat which changes its hull shape dynamically to adapt to the current conditions (weather, fatigue, desire to surf, heading relative to wind, etc.). Of course, when this boat hits the market, we'll criticise it for being one big moving part. Greg - Greg Hollingsworth Red Nordkapp (Skeg) Red Current Designs Solstice ST (Rudder) Purple Perception Pirouette (nada) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Hi all, Greg Hollingsworth said, "Hey, let's face it, rudders and skegs both are problematic... but from my experiences, they're somewhat necessary to add versatility to a boat. I like to paddle in all conditions, calm days at one extreme to big winds and waves at the other extreme. I've never met a boat that handles both extremes well without a rudder or skeg." I think that Greg hit the definitive answer. It you want a versatile boat, stick a skeg or a rudder on it. If they're retractable, you don't have to use 'em. One argument against rudders is the cables. I've had plenty of problems with them fraying and breaking. I've also had a problem with the rudder coming down by itself in heavy surf. The result is usually a bent rudder. I've not had the luxury of paddling a wide variety of boats, but I can't imagine a boat that handle ALL conditions without the owner wishing (occasionally) that he/she had a little "dohicky" hanging down there helping out. Plus, I like taking it easy and the rudder let's me relax and "zone" in on my forward stroke without having to take correctional strokes. I do, however, appreciate hearing all the opinions and feel that there is much merit in debating things that some feel don't really need debating. Cheers, Wishy-washy Dave Dave Williams, SeaCanoe Training Director Home tel: +66 76 254-514 Work tel: +66 76 212-252 Fax: +66 76 212-172 dave_at_seacanoe.com http://seacanoe.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Valley seems to have changed to the P&H style skeg on their new boats. The new system is a vast improvement over the old bungee cord-lean back and yank it system. The new slider is very accurate, easy to use and the skeg itself has been reshaped. cya Bob Denton *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Some answers to Gerald questions: The function of a retractable skeg is to trim your boat neutral, so sweep strokes on one side are not needed. How does it work? When you are paddling forward the bow has more friction on the water than the stern, this is why the stern gets blown down wind the kayak turns up wind. By dropping the skeg you will create more friction at the stern so that the bow gets blown down wind. You can trim the skeg so that the boat will cruise neutral this takes some practice to find the optimal (trim) setting, if you change your speed you will need to change your trim (the amount of friction at the bow has increased) Can you turn the bow up wind with the skeg down? As you can Read above with the skeg all the way down this will be difficult but with a neutral trimmed kayak this will not be a problem. Surfing? DO NOT use the skeg in The Surf. You will find it hard enough to control your kayak with out the skeg. But if you are running from the wind drop the skeg all the way down, you will not have to think about keeping the bow down wind, so go with the flow. If you are surfing with the skeg down the boat won't travel in a perfect strait line, don't try to keep the boat in a perfect strait line the kayak should come back on course when you catch the next wave. Can you lean carve a turn with the skeg down? This again depends on the trim. When exactly do you use it and how often do you actually use it? As soon as the kayak turns into the wind, around here in the UK a lot (lots of wind). Just a tip: if your skeg is Groetjes, Len *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
From: Len Van Halm <LenV_at_ITEXJSY.com> > The function of a retractable skeg is to trim your boat neutral,.... > By dropping the skeg .......You can > trim the skeg so that the boat will cruise neutral this takes some > practice to find the optimal (trim) setting, if you change your speed > you will need to change your trim ........ > When exactly do you use it and how often do you actually use it? As > soon as the kayak turns into the wind, around here in the UK a lot (lots > of wind). So you keep taking your hand off the paddle to fiddle with the skeg adjustment? What are your feet doing? What a waste? Maybe that's why we use rudders so much as this is a windy country and the direction is always changing as it swirls round headlands. As for the comment about stainless steel crimping, a lot of us use Spectra (2 mm), it is possible to tie it by hand at sea if necessary. It is VERY strong and doesn't stretch. (OK Philip W.???) Alex -- ---------------------------------------------------- Alex Ferguson a.ferguson_at_chem.canterbury.ac.nz Electronics Workshop, Chem Dept, Univ of Canterbury Christchurch, New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 07:25 PM 9/14/98 +0100, Len Van Halm wrote: >Surfing? DO NOT use the skeg in The Surf. Never ever? What if we like to? >You will find it hard enough >to control your kayak with out the skeg. I sometimes prefer to use my skeg in surf to help prevent broaching. It makes it easier to make my kayak go straight, if thats what I want. I'm not sure why you say it doesnt.I guess it depends on what you are trying to do. When I want to turn around and head back out I retract it, because it certainly hinders that effort. If I want to surf broached I wont use it, and sometimes I surf broached even when i do use it. ;-) But it definitely helps me avoid it. I often surf with an anti-skeggite who is a much better paddler than I am. While he's broaching, I'm flying. Of course while I'm swimming, he's still broaching. ;-0 But if you are running from the >wind drop the skeg all the way down, you will not have to think about >keeping the bow down wind, so go with the flow. If you are surfing with >the skeg down the boat won't travel in a perfect strait line, don't try >to keep the boat in a perfect strait line the kayak should come back on >course when you catch the next wave. But when I use my skeg, I can often ride one wave all the way in. Standard surf disclaimer here, ie I'm no expert and always anxious to learn. Wayne *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Tom, and any others.... Stop at the Lightning Paddles booth at the Port Townsend Symposium this weekend and introduce yourself. We'll be on the beach somewhere, all weekend, and I wouldn't mind meeting some of the people on this list. Will Matt and Cam be there? I keep forgetting to ask them on the phone. They aren't always there. Hank Hays >I will be at the West Coast SK symposium if you want to attack my in person. I >of couse will run like hell and hide behind Mat Brose of Mariner Kayaks. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Just checked with Cam Brose and he said the area on a boat that extends below the normal carve of the hull of is called the skeg. So the Mariner MAX has a natural skeg. This skeg never jams with stones or sand and is not mechanical. The pure form of the kayak is not defiled. Amen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Reasonable statement except the part about not being mechanical. Since on the Mariner kayaks you adjust the skeg and the overall handling/balance of the boat by moving weight via a mechanical sliding seat. At 10:13 PM 9/15/98 EDT, Tomckayak_at_aol.com wrote: >Just checked with Cam Brose and he said the area on a boat that extends >below the normal carve of the hull of is called the skeg. So the Mariner MAX >has a natural skeg. This skeg never jams with stones or sand and is not >mechanical. The pure form of the kayak is not defiled. Amen >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** > > Saul Kinderis saul_at_isomedia.com tel:(425)402-3426 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 98-09-15 03:09:39 EDT, gregh_at_u1.abs.net writes: << Perhaps what you're referring to is a boat which changes its hull shape dynamically to adapt to the current conditions (weather, fatigue, desire to surf, heading relative to wind, etc.). Of course, when this boat hits the market, we'll criticise it for being one big moving part. >> Actually, Greg, it's here. Check out Ron Casterline's new Mariner. The boat actually <does> change its hull shape in the water with that wierd (but effective) sliding seat rig. People have said it's uncomfortable --- possibly, and possibly only for some --- but Ron loves it. But it does have <one> movable part --- the paddler. Otherwise, I agree with you completely. But when you edge your new Nordkapp, aren't you changing its hull shape too? The only kayaks I ever see that have no "skeg" form at all are the whitewater boats, and that's the way those guys like it! Jack *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 98-09-15 03:09:39 EDT, gregh_at_u1.abs.net writes: << Perhaps what you're referring to is a boat which changes its hull shape dynamically to adapt to the current conditions (weather, fatigue, desire to surf, heading relative to wind, etc.). Of course, when this boat hits the market, we'll criticise it for being one big moving part. >> Actually, Greg, it's here. Check out Ron Casterline's new Mariner. The boat actually <does> change its hull shape in the water with that wierd (but effective) sliding seat rig. People have said it's uncomfortable --- possibly, and possibly only for some --- but Ron loves it. But it does have <one> movable part --- the paddler. Otherwise, I agree with you completely. But when you edge your new Nordkapp, aren't you changing its hull shape too? The only kayaks I ever see that have no "skeg" form at all are the whitewater boats, and that's the way those guys like it! Jack *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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