Dan Hagen wrote: You certainly present some very persuasive arguments on behalf of the Coaster. Some (but not all) of the benefits to which you refer can also be achieved in a longer boat with substantial rocker, which is the approach that I have taken. I have often thought of adding a Coaster to my "fleet", and may still do so. But I must heartily disagree with you about the looks. It is about as ugly as a boat can be. :-) Still, I suppose that one comes to appreciate the looks over time, or at least learns to look beyond the surface ugliness to see the inner beauty. Actually, it's not my intention to promote the Coaster (as hard as that might be to believe), but to promote a certain style of sea kayak that is underrepresented in the market; few paddlers have experienced it. Anyway, a longer boat with substantial rocker would probably have a greater tendency to weathervane. Also it wouldn't be as easy to turn around in a tight spot between rocks or in a sea cave. My suggestion is to borrow a Coaster, take it out on a windy day in rough seas, take it surfing, then get back in any other sea kayak in similar conditions; you'll find out where I'm coming from. If you get the chance to take it in some rock gardens, you'll really get the point. Now look at the boat again; It's essentially a rocket! I'm just curious why boat designers aren't interested in this style of kayak. John Lull *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Lull wrote: > Anyway, a longer boat with substantial rocker would probably > have a greater tendency to weathervane. I haven't had a problem with this (but then again I pay close attention to the boat's trim). > Also it wouldn't be as easy to turn around in a tight spot > between rocks or in a sea cave. This is true to some extent. While I can very nearly spin my boat within its length, a shorter boat would require even less room. I have paddled my long boat in rock gardens, surge channels, and sea caves along the west coast. There have been times when less length would have been preferable (in very tight spots), but the most important attributes for this type of play are maneuverability and responsiveness, which do not require a short boat. > I'm just curious why boat designers aren't interested in this > style of kayak. I don't think that the problem lies with designers. As the comments of designers on this list have made clear, the problem lies with the perception among manufacturers that there is very little demand for boats of this type. Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I recently saw a Phoenix kayak. It was short and weighed in at 25 lbs or so. They make a 14' "sea kayak" that weighs 24 lbs in Kevlar and costs under $1500. Has anyone paddled one of these? Any comments? cya *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> I have often thought of adding a Coaster to > my "fleet", and may still do so. But I must heartily disagree with you > about the looks. It is about as ugly as a boat can be. :-) All the talk about this boat has raised my curiosity and a search has not been successful. Is there a picture and/or spec sheet on this? -- gabriel l romeu http://members.aol.com/romeug studio furniture http://members.aol.com/romeugp paintings, photos, prints, etc. http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR a daily photo journal *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Do any of you know where I can get a snake bite kit in San Diego? MAX (I'm off the list now... so please just email me back directly) http://www.solomax.com - a 4 year solo kayak journey *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Lull wrote; > I'm just curious why boat designers aren't interested in this style of kayak. Designers, like boats, come in all kinds of shapes, sizes and objectives. Some design just what they like assuming or hoping that the world will agree with them and buy lots of their boats. Some design just what the customers orders and if the market rejects it they shrug their shoulders and say, "Well, you asked for it." Some try to do what passes for market research in a small business sort of way and then try to create a boat that will fit the results. Some decide what the customer should have and then create it. If it doesn't sell they assume the customer lacks the knowledge or sophistication to recognise its infinite perfection. There may be other approaches. In any case, designers like Matt and Cam Brose for example, can call more of the shots since they also sell and assemble their boats. Others don't build or sell so are guided (to some extent) by the people who do those things. The designer may have some influence but not as much as he might like. If the builder doesn't want a boat or see the need for it then it may never see the light of day. Some customers, believing that their idea is worth the effort, have paid the costs of developing etc. I know of some examples that paid off but a lot more that didn't. Some builders (the kind I like ;) ) develop products and then try to convince the buyers that they have to have it. Others wait for customers to ask for a thing before they risk building it. Customers have the final say. Builders and designers ignore their messages at their peril. Regularly I hear from people who say that such and such a boat that I designed is a water pig. Fortunately enough people like them to pay my bills. The fascinating thing is that so many who don't like a boat act as if the designer had committed a personal offence. Sort of, "How dare you design such a boat?" Experts are the worst in this respect. I just ignore them, hold on to the love letters, throw the hate mail in the trash, and deposit the cheques. :-) Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John wrote: "...Customers have the final say. Builders and designers ignore their messages at their peril. Regularly I hear from people who say that such and such a boat that I designed is a water pig. Fortunately enough people like them to pay my bills. The fascinating thing is that so many who don't like a boat act as if the designer had committed a personal offence. Sort of, "How dare you design such a boat?" Experts are the worst in this respect." John, being an expert of some sorts (photographer) I am sharing your opinion! Experts have the knowhow - but do not always know "how"... I know that this makes no sense to most of you, but anyway, I want to cite a local proverb: "the truth lies in rye bread" :-) Think about that. Cheers, Ari Saarto "Home of the Traditional & Famous Scandinavian Skinny-dipping [TM]" Finland - Europe GSM +358 - 50 - 526 5892 fax. +358 - 3 - 828 2815 e-mail: asaarto_at_lpt.fi *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 7:40 AM -0400 10/14/98, John Winters wrote: >Designers, like boats, come in all kinds of shapes, sizes and objectives. >Some design just what they like assuming or hoping that the world will >agree with them and buy lots of their boats. Some design just what the >customers orders and if the market rejects it they shrug their shoulders >and say, "Well, you asked for it." Some try to do what passes for market >research in a small business sort of way and then try to create a boat that >will fit the results. Some decide what the customer should have and then >create it. If it doesn't sell they assume the customer lacks the knowledge >or sophistication to recognise its infinite perfection. I will confess to designing a boat to fit in a display space I had at a show. I'm not too proud of this reason, but it did get me to design a 10' long boat. Don't forget the influence of tradition. As has been demonstrated on this list, any deviation from traditional greenland style will cause complaints. Innovation is frowned upon by the consumer public. A radical new idea requires a lot of marketing to convince buyers that the innovation is worthwhile (assuming it is). Why go through all the trouble when, if you stick to a design that is not much different from what is already successful, you can lean on tradition to do most of your marketing. Then all you have to say is "My boat is just like the Nordapp only better because it is an inch longer/shorter/wider/narrower, this makes it more-stable/faster/more-manuverable/comfortable/lighter/stronger/better-looking" . This is not just laziness on the part of the designer or consumer, although that can be a factor. Good designs rarely come from radical departures from tradition. They are more often a result of slow evolution and tweeking of previously successful ideas in an effort to make them "better". The transition from a skin-on-frame Inuit boat to a squirt boat did not happen in one step. It was a series of little "improvements". Yet for all the "improvement" you couldn't sell a squirt boat to a 19th century Inuit, he would have no idea what it was good for and wouldn't be about to shell out a years worth of hunting and gathering to find out. But, I bet with a little practice a 19th century Inuit in a squirt boat would be pretty radical on the WW rodeo circuit not too mention flat water racing. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks c/o Newfound Woodworks, 67 Danforth Brook Rd, Bristol, NH 03222 (603) 744-6167 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Nick wrote; >I will confess to designing a boat to fit in a display space I had at a >show. I'm not too proud of this reason, but it did get me to design a 10' >long boat. Squirt boat? (SNIP) >This is not just laziness on the part of the designer or consumer, although >that can be a factor. Good designs rarely come from radical departures from >tradition. They are more often a result of slow evolution and tweeking of >previously successful ideas in an effort to make them "better". > It's a fine line between using tradition as a guide for departure or as a box for containment. Should one retain a traditional feature even when one knows it may not be necessary or may not be as good as something new or different? While radical departures from tradition are fraught with risk they can produce fine boats. It would be nice if people judged boats on their merits not their antecedents (or lack thereof). In many cases a radical departure can lead to a new perspective such as the SOT, folding kayaks, or inflatables. Many people persist in treating these boats as "not being kayaks" because they don't resemble traditional native craft in appearance or construction. We touched on this in our discussion of certification and one has to wonder how many people would be allowed to take a certification course in a Klepper, Wave ski or a Aire kayak? Fortunately keeping a good idea down is difficult. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 7:44 AM -0400 10/15/98, John Winters wrote: >Fortunately keeping a good idea down is difficult. Unfortunately putting a bad idea down can be even more difficult. Shift your eyes down to your hands. Notice the word QWERTYUIOP. The standard keyboard layout is an example of how a bad idea caught on and now can't be killed. This keyboard design was intended to be difficult to use back when you had to worry about letters getting tangled on a typewriter. The tangling problem was fixed in other ways within a few years, but the layout persists. There is a much better layout that almost no one uses (including myself). Shows how people are willing to use once they are used to it. Nick Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 10 Ash Swamp Rd Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: "Should one retain a traditional feature even when one knows it may not be necessary or may not be as good as something new or different?" I got a Swift Canoes catalog in the mail yesterday. The Swift Osprey, which interests me and was designed by John, has what appear to be very straight, functional lines, very different from the traditional canoes of my younger days. I'm impressed and hoping to get an opportunity to try an Osprey. Bob -------------------------------------------------- Robert C. Perkins, Ph.D. Associate Dean for Research and Planning Methodist College, Fayetteville, NC 28311 910-630-7037 rperkins_at_methodist.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Robert C. Perkins wrote: > > John Winters wrote: > > "Should one retain a traditional feature even when one knows it may not be > necessary or may not be as good as something new or different?" > > The Swift Osprey, > which interests me and was designed by John, has what appear to be very > straight, functional lines, very different from the traditional canoes of > my younger days. I'm impressed and hoping to get an opportunity to try an > Osprey. > I tried the Swift Osprey a year ago & fell in love. I was out in a wind & light chop that would have given my Wenonah Advantage fits. The Osprey tracked well, turned well, felt quite secure level or on it's side. It even seemed to move at a good clip. Unfortunately I can't justify the cost, especially as I won't settle for anything but ultralight. So I'm consoling myself by preparing to build a John Winters designed plywood canoe. It definitely won't look traditional. -- Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/clearstreets/358/index.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 7:49 PM -0400 10/15/98, Robert C. Perkins wrote: >I got a Swift Canoes catalog in the mail yesterday. The Swift Osprey, >which interests me and was designed by John, has what appear to be very >straight, functional lines, very different from the traditional canoes of >my younger days. I'm impressed and hoping to get an opportunity to try an >Osprey. I recently tried an Osprey which I help Newfound Woodworks build as a cedar-stripper. Very nice boat. Lots of fun. Nick Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 10 Ash Swamp Rd Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Nick wrote; > >Unfortunately putting a bad idea down can be even more difficult. Shift >your eyes down to your hands. Notice the word QWERTYUIOP. (SNIP) Absolutely and that is why we progressive designers have to keep plugging away at curing the design ills of the seas kayak and canoe world. :-) SOGT Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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