9/30 San Francisco UCSF, 9pm I went and joined BASK tonight, the Bay Area Sea Kayakers Club. Great group! Also got a very cool T-shirt designed by a very talaneted member of the club. We had eats, a great safety talk about paddle floats and a very cool presentation by the US Park Service on the Cordell Bank Marine Sanctuary just outside the Golden Gate. I learned more in a few hours from _talking_ to other sea kayakers... and as I drove home over the bay I only thought how lucky I am to have access to such a great resource; dedicated to safty and learning while having lots of fun. There's alsmost a trip every weekend. They are into not only learning about the sport but helping to promote it and protect public access for all paddlers. For example due to testimony from BASK memebers the GGNat. Park Service (?) has banned ALL jets skis from areas it controls in the bay waters and elsewhere. Having recently been harrased by these asses... (on soap box) Give them somewhere and only there and let them "boat" in the MTBE pond of their own creation is what I say! (off soap box) Hope you have a group like this near you... If not... why not start one? Well worthwhile IMHO. All The Best, Tom Patrick Necky Dolphin San Fran PS Special thanks to everyone that turned me onto BASK! www.bask.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:19 PM 10/1/98 -0700, Tom wrote: > >I went and joined BASK tonight, the Bay Area Sea Kayakers Club. Great >group! >Also got a very cool T-shirt designed by a very talaneted member of the >club. >We had eats, a great safety talk about paddle floats and a very cool >presentation by the >US Park Service on the Cordell Bank Marine Sanctuary just outside the >Golden Gate. I learned more >in a few hours from _talking_ to other sea kayakers... and as I drove home > over the bay > I only thought how lucky I am to have access to such a great resource; >dedicated to safty and >learning while having lots of fun. There's alsmost a trip every weekend. >They are into not only >learning about the sport but helping to promote it and protect public >access for all paddlers. >For example due to testimony from BASK memebers the GGNat. Park Service (?) > has banned >ALL jets skis from areas it controls in the bay waters and elsewhere. >Having recently been >harrased by these asses... (on soap box) Give them somewhere and only >there and let them >"boat" in the MTBE pond of their own creation is what I say! (off soap box) > >Hope you have a group like this near you... If not... why not start one? >Well worthwhile IMHO. We have recently formed the Santa Barbara Kayak Association to organize similar activities for kayakers paddling in the Santa Barbara Channel. Last weekend, eleven of us paddled from Santa Barbara harbor to Scorpion harbor on Santa Cruz island. We had been planning this 26 mile paddle for a couple of months. Preparation included a number of practice runs and planning sessions. A common reaction we received was "Are you guys a club? How can we get involved?". As it happened we were just a group of friends connected in various ways that shared an interest in paddling, both kayaks and paddle boards. One fellow flew in from New York for the trip, others came up from the LA area, while the remaining paddlers were local to Santa Barbara. David Powdrell (author of "Point Conception to Mexico-A Common Man Kayak Adventure") was the organizing force behind this trip. It was great energy, certainly one of those times where the whole is greater than the sum of pieces. We all know that the sport of kayaking is growing, but the interest in our trip showed us that it has probably grown faster and further that we had thought. The size of the local kayak community seems to call for a local organization that can fill their needs and represent their interests. BASK does a good job of that and up until recently a group such as theirs needed a population the size of that in the bay area - critical mass. It seems that critical mass can now be found in many smaller communities. Many areas have environmental issues that are being, or need to be, addressed. Where these issues involve the water, kayakers have both a special interest and IMHO; a special expertise. As paddlers, we are the ones that travel slow enough and get close enough to see the details. This is information that should be shared as environmental decisions are made. Organization can help gather and disseminate this information. There is much we can teach ourselves and others about low impact use of our coasts. The Santa Barbara Channel Islands are a very special case. They are undergoing very significant transition that will proceed over many years. There is much to learn and many choices to make regarding the restoration and preservation of these very special resources. The kayak is certainly the vehicle of choice for visiting these islands and kayakers should participate in the management decisions that will be made by the Park Service and the Marine Sanctuary. Kayakers must reach out to other kayakers to teach both kayaking skills and environmental skills. As a group, we will be judged by our behavior and our credibility will hinge on that behavior. I am glad to read of your very positive experience with BASK. More of us can have that same experience if we organize. If you kayak in the Santa Barbara Channel, or would like to, come check out the Santa Barbara Kayak Association. I would be very interested to hear from any of you that are active in kayak organizations. As a new organization, we will listen keenly to any experience you wish to share. Bob Tellefson Santa Barbara Kayak Assocation http://www.sbka.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Now you have me thinking about finding or creating a national network of _user_ based Kayaking Clubs to lobby for paddlers at the local and in DC at the national level, create group discounts on things, continuing education and certification. Does such exsist? Even cross club mass paddles and extended courtesies would be cool. Wondering... Tom Patrick SF Dolphin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Tom_P_McAuliffe_at_fastmultimedia.com wrote: > > Now you have me thinking about finding or creating a national network of > _user_ based > Kayaking Clubs to lobby for paddlers at the local and in DC at the national > level, create group discounts on things, continuing education and > certification. Does such exsist? Even cross club mass paddles and extended > courtesies would be cool. > Wondering... > Tom Patrick > SF Dolphin About 9 years ago, I went about getting in touch with all the kayak clubs I could find, coast to coast. I prepared a table or chart of all of them with categories such as address, newsletter, number of trips, if had rental equipment, gave lessons, number of members, etc. I had it at a Clubs Desk at the LL Bean symposium where I handed out the list and had copies of all the clubs newsletters. The angle was one of those you mentioned: availability of a contact point for local information and paddling contacts when traveling. When Atlantic Coastal Kayaker magazine started, they took over the list and printed it yearly but I think they dropped it two years ago. The American Canoe Association fills some of the function you suggest although I don't think it looks at itself as a clearinghouse for information. It does lobby or at least gets the word out in DC for paddling causes, etc. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Funny I don't see the word "Kayak" anywhere in there... And please don't give me that stuff about canoes being the same as kayaks cause ya hold a paddle. The ACA's great for some things and is one of the foremost organizations for insturctor certification as you well know... it's not a _users_ group however. Which is kinna what I'm/we're dicsussing... Some have felt in the past that ACA and others like are a bit to manufacter orientated. FWIW ;) Tom Please respond to bgoldmtb_at_BellSouth.net To: Tom P McAuliffe/FAST Multimedia Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] BASK&clubs It's Called "The American Canoe Association" They've been around for over 100 years. Time to join up!!!!! And.........put your $$$ to work in DC!!!!! visit them at www.aca-paddler.org Bill Goldstick Big Pine Key, Florida & past board member of ACA Tom_P_McAuliffe_at_fastmultimedia.com wrote: > > Now you have me thinking about finding or creating a national network of > _user_ based > Kayaking Clubs to lobby for paddlers at the local and in DC at the national > level, create group discounts on things, continuing education and > certification. Does such exsist? Even cross club mass paddles and extended > courtesies would be cool. > Wondering... > Tom Patrick > SF Dolphin > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Yes, the ACA certifies instructors for coastal kayaking. However, it seems that you do not need to know how to roll, nor weather patterns, nor be very proficient in surf and rough seas, to get certified. Rather, you have to be able to show students how to make the ideal forward stroke, and a couple of drag side strokes, with a european paddle. Also you have to be able to show students the ACA concept of safety, which does not get to the level of the stuff that we often discuss in this list. Because of this, someone like me, would have to do less of practicing rolls, rough sea rescues, navigation, Greenland strokes and tricks, in order to prepare in the next months for the certification exam. Now I have to train for what the ACA thinks is sea kayaking in order to get their certificate. I wonder if the American Sailing Association would me more qualified to certify sea kayaking instructors than the ACA. - Julio (yes, I know I am igniting fire, but that should result in a healthy discussion) :-) > paddle. The ACA's great for some things and is one of the foremost > organizations for insturctor certification as you well know... it's not a > _users_ group however. Which is kinna what I'm/we're dicsussing... Some > have felt in the past that ACA and others like are a bit to manufacter > orientated. > FWIW > ;) > Tom > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:09 PM 10/2/98 -0700, Julio wrote: >I wonder if the American Sailing Association would me more qualified >to certify sea kayaking instructors than the ACA. > You raise a good point here. Clearly it is not enough to know how to handle your boat, though that is important. Knowledge of sea conditions, weather, geography, navigation, emergency medical procedures, wildlife, and more make for a competent seafarer. Having started out in large boats and worked my way up to kayaks, I want to know as much as I can about all of these topics both to be safe and to enjoy my time on the sea. Any group than can help me with this would be of great interest to me. It seems to me that certification serves a different purpose, usually to certify that someone is a good risk when money is involved, e.g., when renting an expensive sail boat or paying an instructor for their knowledge. In my experience, some of the best (and most fun) learning occurs when people are learning together. An organization that can facilitate these learning opportunities is a valuable entity, whatever form it takes. Bob Tellefson Santa Barbara Kayak Assocation http://www.sbka.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Julio, I think we pretty much agree on the level of relevance of the ACA. I personally would go so far as to give a succint summary of their sea kayaking certification... It's too wimpy. The BCU is much better as far as technical skills go, but again there are problems. They are too stuffy. Things like never paddling alone or completely ignoring greenland paddles bother me. I wonder what the good people on this list would come up with if we decided to start our own certification program. Perhaps I'll get the ball rolling... I think the the five star rating of the BCU is too complicated, and leaves too much room for mediocrity at the lower levels. I would propose having only a single rating, and then add specialized components as needed. For instance, Joe Seakayaker has an official Paddlewise certification of competency with specialty in greenland paddles and paddling open coast w/ surf. Or something like that. The basic certification would be much more comprehensive of the basic skills. I'll list a few, and then perhaps others could add more. - Basic paddle strokes: Forward, sweeps, rudders, duffek - Basic skills: edge control, edged turns, sculling, high and low brace - basic rescues: Wet-exit, assisted (several kinds), solo w/ paddle float - basic eskimo roll: I would go so far as to require a roll for certification, others might balk so much that I might have to compromise. But we should at least give the message that this is the best kind of rescue, period, and that it is not really that hard to learn. - basic navigation skills: Read a chart, compass, avoid shipping lanes, - basic tide and current awareness - basic hypothermia awareness - basic boat packing skills Well, that's not a bad start for the BASIC certification. The idea here is to make it somewhat difficult, instead of giving one away with every full tank of gas. Another idea is to keep it simple -- one level is all that is needed to make sure everyone is a competent kayaker for the level of paddling that majority of sea kayakers typically attempt. This would really increase safety in general. Then there are the specialized ratings that can be used for aspects of sea kayaking that the majority of the sea kayaking public would not typically attempt, such as rock gardening, open coast paddling, tide rip playing, greenland paddle technique, surfing, whitewater rivers, etc... There are plenty of people who do want to learn these things, and it would be good address each one directly and specifically, because they are all quite dangerous in different ways. (greenland paddles ARE dangerously fun...) Well, what do you think... can we run with this and turn it into something substantial? This is a wonderful email list, with many many outstanding contributors. I don't see why we couldn't formalize a certification program, even if it just goes on the web page for the general public to read. let's be the Linux of sea kayaking. :) ___________________ / Kevin Whilden \ |Dept. of Geosciences \___ |University of Washington \ |kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu| \________________________/ On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Julio MacWilliams wrote: > Yes, the ACA certifies instructors for coastal kayaking. However, > it seems that you do not need to know how to roll, nor weather patterns, > nor be very proficient in surf and rough seas, to get certified. > > Rather, you have to be able to show students how to make the ideal > forward stroke, and a couple of drag side strokes, with a european paddle. > Also you have to be able to show students the ACA concept of safety, > which does not get to the level of the stuff that we often discuss > in this list. > > Because of this, someone like me, would have to do less of practicing rolls, > rough sea rescues, navigation, Greenland strokes and tricks, in order > to prepare in the next months for the certification exam. > > Now I have to train for what the ACA thinks is sea kayaking in order > to get their certificate. > > I wonder if the American Sailing Association would me more qualified > to certify sea kayaking instructors than the ACA. > > - Julio > > (yes, I know I am igniting fire, but that should result in a healthy > discussion) :-) > > > paddle. The ACA's great for some things and is one of the foremost > > organizations for insturctor certification as you well know... it's not a > > _users_ group however. Which is kinna what I'm/we're dicsussing... Some > > have felt in the past that ACA and others like are a bit to manufacter > > orientated. > > FWIW > > ;) > > Tom > > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 10/2/98 8:01:34 PM EST, kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu writes: << Well, what do you think... can we run with this and turn it into something substantial? >> You just presented a good discourse on why clarification does not work. What if Everyone could certification everyone else? :0 Next time you are out paddling observe your paddling friends. Present them with a rank like level 5 or three stars. In turn they rate you, all will have great fun :{ Or ... maybe just a written test on the WEB site will do. ;) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Kevin and others wrote about certification ; I too would agree that there is something lacking (or too much of certain things) in most certification courses. The biggest failing (to my mind) shows up in a rather narrow view of kayaking. For example, Kevin mentioned the eskimo roll as something that might be required. Many boats just cannot be rolled efficiently and requiring a roll for a person paddling a Klepper may be unreasonable. In my discussions with some (not all) BCU coaches it seemed they only recognized British boats as being "real" kayaks. Some will not teach a course unless one uses their boats. One might ask what good such a course is to a person who will never use that type of boat. The problem with paddles and paddling styles reflects a simliar narrow and arbirtrary focus. What do we expect certification to accomplish? What do "levels" accomplish in the goal toof teaching skills? Are they needed or useful? Does having a certificate lead people into danger? The old "I have a certificate therefor I am hot stuff" syndrome keeps surfacing. Does a certificate say more than it should? While setting up my safety web page I realized that I backed myself into a corner trying to find certificate levels to match to conditions. I did it but didn't like it. Does having reached a certain level in a course really mean you are competent to paddle in certain conditions? I cannot help wondering if kayak and canoe instruction wouldn't serve better if they were a continuum with no specific or defined levels. One starts at the bottom and acquires skills in the order and to the degree one needs. Eventually the little light might go on and the paddler realizes he not only has all the skills he might need but also has the experience to make clear headed decisions. A piece of paper may say the same thiing but would it be so? Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > I too would agree that there is something lacking (or too much of certain > things) in most certification courses. [big snip] > I cannot help wondering if kayak and canoe instruction wouldn't serve > better if they were a continuum with no specific or defined levels. One > starts at the bottom and acquires skills in the order and to the degree one > needs. Eventually the little light might go on and the paddler realizes he > not only has all the skills he might need but also has the experience to > make clear headed decisions. A piece of paper may say the same thiing but > would it be so? John's two cents is mine, also. As a person who probably will never learn to roll (combo of laziness and shoulder problems), but who compensates by making conservative and intelligent choices in his paddling, I suspect I am as "safe" as a hotshot with a refined roll who is willing to use it regularly to pull himself out of capsize situations. (No, I do not want to reactivate the "perceived risk" debate again!) So, how would a conversation with a BCU-certification-oriented person go? Badly, I suspect. Also, I would not seek out trips where gnarly overfall-crossings and/or mandatory big-surf-landings are required. Where this lands for me is that "skills-oriented" certification can never assess "judgement." Being way past the youth and strength category, I'll vote for old age and treachery any day as good things for my paddling companions to have. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:11 AM -0700 10/4/98, Dave Kruger wrote: >Where this lands for me is that "skills-oriented" certification can >never assess "judgement." Being way past the youth and strength >category, I'll vote for old age and treachery any day as good things for >my paddling companions to have. I am currently persuing getting a Maine Guide Certification to lead kayak trips. Maine is one of the few places that requires certification to lead others out onto the water in a sea kayak. One disturbing thing that is evident from what I have learned so far is that I could probably become certified without ever actually getting in a sea kayak. There is a written test and no need to demonstrate skill or judgement in a kayak. I would be more comfortable with this if they made BCU or ACA certification a prerequisite even if those training schemes are somewhat wrong headed. At least they require you get in a kayak and have someone show you how to do a few things in the boat. As a customer to a Maine Guide I would be more comfortable knowing they had as many skills in their bag of tricks as possible. While a good guide should never get their customers in a situation where the guide needs to roll, s**t happens and I would rather have them be up to the challenge than otherwise. However, as a practical matter, I am not a big believer in certification. How can a day or two of training and possibly a test at the end ever hope to quantify if a paddler is going to be able to pull off the skill when it really counts. It is my impression that most certification schemes do not include a test that people have a good chance of failing (I could be wrong in that). And if they do include that test it is usually not in the best interest of the teacher to fail anyone because that says more about the quality of the teacher than it does the skills of the testee. I would suggest that any certification include an on-the-water test given by a 3rd party and the test should be held 6 months to a year after the class. This tests to see if the skills learned in class actually were retained by the student. This would also give those who think they are good enough the ability to skip the class and go right to the test. Tests would involve dealing with different conditions. If the certification is for rough water paddling, the testee paddles in rough water. The tester observes how the testee deals with the conditions and asks the testee to get in and out of certain situations that are reasonable to expect given the conditions. The ability to perform some sort of self rescue is appropriate for any conditions, calm or rough. The tester grades on how successfully the testee deals with the conditions. Grades should not be based on style, but success. Some evaluation of judgement can be made by observing choices made in dealing with conditions, but this would tend to be more subjective. Obviously this is not ideal as conditions will vary making it hard to standardize, but it could have some use. Classes are worthwhile, but successful completion of a skills class is not the same as possessing the skill. Amoung my friends we have 3 facitious classifications of ability: the first time you do it is Luck, the second time is Coincidence, the third time is Skill. If you can perform a skill immediately after learning how to do it, it could just be luck, you need to be able to perform the skill consistently before it can actually be considered learned. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks c/o Newfound Woodworks, 67 Danforth Brook Rd, Bristol, NH 03222 (603) 744-6167 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:32:52 PDT