No one on the list has died because of a missed roll, lack of flotation devices, lack of warm gear, poor planning etc. Just because we are not dead yet is not a good reason to not use due care in all aspects of kayaking. I don't have a problem with people taking risks FOR THEMSELVES, I do have a problem with people who impose their risks on ME. If I am behind you on the freeway, the biggest risk is to me if your boat comes off. You are not the one who might have to swerve to miss the boat on the road, or worse have a boat stuck through your windshield. Your problem would be dealing with the mess after the fact. I don't have to have it happen to ME to know that a risk is real. michael gulfstream_at_flinet.com wrote: > > All of the following verbiage is undermined by the fact that no one on this > list has lost a boat due to unavoidable mechanical failure. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Michael Neverdosky wrote: --snip-- "I don't have to have it happen to ME to know that a risk is real." --snip-- It happened to Jeek & Jeek (Jake Scott, of the Scott Canoe family, and his friend who also was named Jake). They had two new R-5s (plastic general touring kayaks) on their racks. The front rack broke away (the gutter trim popped), and then after a couple of seconds, the back let go. Several cars on the highway had to hit the ditch, but fortunately there were no injuries. Richard Culpeper *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Gee-whiz more people die from bee stings than canoe or kayak coming off and hitting a car that is behind. If you are that worried about being hit then don't follow behind a car with a boat on top, period. Simple isn't it. Just because you don't like some thing don't impose it on others. I am not fond of British round chine kayaks but it ok with me if you paddle one,back to the bee stings, you had thought I forgot didn't you. I still get close to bees to take pictures or just to watch, but if people die from bees then should we kill them all, no just don't go close to them if you are worried about it. People forget it is just your opinion , not law ,and that and $2500 will buy you a new kayak. PS. unless you want a platic one or a kevlar one. Dana At 11:40 AM 11/29/98 +0000, Michael Neverdosky wrote: >No one on the list has died because of a missed roll, lack of flotation >devices, lack of warm gear, poor planning etc. >Just because we are not dead yet is not a good reason to not use due >care in all aspects of kayaking. > >I don't have a problem with people taking risks FOR THEMSELVES, I do >have a problem with people who impose their risks on ME. >If I am behind you on the freeway, the biggest risk is to me if your boat >comes off. You are not the one who might have to swerve to miss the >boat on the road, or worse have a boat stuck through your windshield. >Your problem would be dealing with the mess after the fact. > >I don't have to have it happen to ME to know that a risk is real. > >michael > >gulfstream_at_flinet.com wrote: >> >> All of the following verbiage is undermined by the fact that no one on this >> list has lost a boat due to unavoidable mechanical failure. >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
dldecker_at_mediaone.net wrote: > > Gee-whiz more people die from bee stings than canoe or kayak coming off and > hitting a car that is behind. Yes the risk is lower than bee stings but it is also easily preventable. Bees are a necessary part of nature (and agriculture). There's not much we can do about them. The kayak on your car is a risk that is easy to control. > If you are that worried about being hit then don't follow behind a car with > a boat on top, period. Simple isn't it. Not really. You can't always avoid being at least temporarily behind one. There is also a risk to cars coming the other way. > Just because you don't like some > thing don't impose it on others. I am not fond of British round chine > kayaks but it ok with me if you paddle one, Of course not. A round chine kayak is of no risk to you - unless some #_at_$% doesn't tie it down well enough on their car because they don't care or haven't learned yet. > People forget it > is just your opinion , not law ,and that and $2500 will buy you a new kayak. If your kayak injures or kills someone else, you would be risking one heck of a big lawsuit. My father had a boat come off a car. Fortunately no cars were close behind. I sold a mattress to a guy who had it come off his car a couple of minutes later. He had insisted it was tied on well enough & refused extra rope. A following car drove over it. Luckily the only casualty was the mattress. Friends had a gutter mount rack come loose. All that saved their canoe was their extra tiedowns. My car was right behind them when this happened. Yes, $2500 would have bought them a new canoe but that wouldn't have helped me if I died because of it. I'm very glad they were careful. Another friend sloppily tied his kayak onto his car. When the kayak came off, the rope from the front bumper let the kayak drop down beside the car. Somehow the kayak got ahead & wedged against a front wheel. It forced him into a ditch at speed where he rolled. He suffered a broken collar bone. Fortunately his daughter was okay. Note: I don't paddle with this guy any more. He's an accident waiting to happen on & off the water. -- Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/clearstreets/358/index.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Lloyd Bowles The "Sane" Canoeist A few good points that make sense. At 02:25 PM 11/29/98 -0500, Lloyd Bowles wrote: >dldecker_at_mediaone.net wrote: >> >> Gee-whiz more people die from bee stings than canoe or kayak coming off and >> hitting a car that is behind. > >Yes the risk is lower than bee stings but it is also easily preventable. >Bees are a necessary part of nature (and agriculture). There's not much >we can do about them. The kayak on your car is a risk that is easy to >control. > Live in the city with no flowers or blooming plants around you??? only answer i could come up with on that one. again more people die from car accidents so if you don't drive one with front, side and maybe rear air bags then you must be cheap, like me , or negligent., If some one is in the car with you they are in risk.( not you personally Lloyd) >> If you are that worried about being hit then don't follow behind a car with >> a boat on top, period. Simple isn't it. > >Not really. You can't always avoid being at least temporarily behind >one. There is also a risk to cars coming the other way. > I expect that you could limit it . Pull off the road if some one is coming toward you. >> Just because you don't like some >> thing don't impose it on others. I am not fond of British round chine >> kayaks but it ok with me if you paddle one, > >Of course not. A round chine kayak is of no risk to you - unless some >#_at_$% doesn't tie it down well enough on their car because they don't >care or haven't learned yet. > no they just are not as good as hard chine kayaks , my opinion only >> People forget it >> is just your opinion , not law ,and that and $2500 will buy you a new kayak. > >If your kayak injures or kills someone else, you would be risking one >heck of a big lawsuit. >My father had a boat come off a car. Fortunately no cars were close >behind. >I sold a mattress to a guy who had it come off his car a couple of >minutes later. He had insisted it was tied on well enough & refused >extra rope. A following car drove over it. Luckily the only casualty was >the mattress. >Friends had a gutter mount rack come loose. All that saved their canoe >was their extra tiedowns. My car was right behind them when this >happened. Yes, $2500 would have bought them a new canoe but that >wouldn't have helped me if I died because of it. I'm very glad they were >careful. >Another friend sloppily tied his kayak onto his car. When the kayak came >off, the rope from the front bumper let the kayak drop down beside the >car. Somehow the kayak got ahead & wedged against a front wheel. It >forced him into a ditch at speed where he rolled. He suffered a broken >collar bone. Fortunately his daughter was okay. Note: I don't paddle >with this guy any more. He's an accident waiting to happen on & off the >water. >-- with all the cars on the road with stuff on to tied on the chances are still slim. You take more of a chance to injure some one by getting in your car.We all take a certain amount of risk and have to decide if it is worth the chance. I feel that two straps are good enough for my kayak Besides down south it would probably just be a Canadian that got hurt, he he I can see your point but why stop with just a few more ropes ?? why not just don't put your boat on top?? would ten straps be enough , twenty ? some one would probably say no so you can't win. So if you want to go over board tieing on straps go ahead. Just don't get behind me when I am transporting my two strap kayak, you have been warned!!!!!! Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I love this thread!!!! Because I tie my kayaks on my car with a single strap I am accused of being some kind of potential mass murderer! Well I certainly don't want to have to go through life carrying such a hefty burden. So I think what I am going to do is drill a couple of holes in the bottom of my kayak with corresponding holes through the roof of my car. Then every time I transport my boats I will run a couple of large bolts through the boat and secure them inside the car with nuts which will be then secured with cotter pins. Of course I will have to use some large washers inside the kayak to distribute the stress on the fiberglass. This will hold the boat in place even if I lose both rack supports!!! Now that I have come up with what I consider to be the ULTIMATE system to fasten my boat to the car for transport I can smugly point my finger and accuse all of you who use any system which is not as secure as mine of being cold and irresponsible and obviously out to kill people! Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 05:02 PM 11/29/98 EST, KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: > I love this thread!!!! Because I tie my kayaks on my car with a single >strap I am accused of being some kind of potential mass murderer! Well I >certainly don't want to have to go through life carrying such a hefty burden. >So I think what I am going to do is drill a couple of holes in the bottom of >my kayak with corresponding holes through the roof of my car. Then every time >I transport my boats I will run a couple of large bolts through the boat and >secure them inside the car with nuts which will be then secured with cotter >pins. Of course I will have to use some large washers inside the kayak to >distribute the stress on the fiberglass. This will hold the boat in place even >if I lose both rack supports!!! > Now that I have come up with what I consider to be the ULTIMATE system to >fasten my boat to the car for transport I can smugly point my finger and >accuse all of you who use any system which is not as secure as mine of being >cold and irresponsible and obviously out to kill people! > >Scott >So.Cal. Nope you are wrong Scott, you are still some kind of potential mass murderer! You have not welded your racks to your care in case the gutters fail!!!Maybe you could get real long bolts to go thru the racks and roof of your car. Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I bought my Aquaterra Spectrum from an outfitter friend of mine (who shall forever remained unnamed). After I took delivery, I found out that the boat had fallen off her kayak trailer and dragged along the ground for a while. She had had it patched, with matching plastic, but it looked very messy. Then, one time I hit a rock on the Truckee River, and the patch must have gotten knocked loose. It took me forever to find someone in the Sacramento area who could weld plastic. I finally found an industrial firm that did an excellent job, even though they didn't have yellow plastic and had to do it in white. I don't think it will ever come undone again unless, I suppose, I hit another rock. I've also had a small raft blow off the roof of my van, and land gently on the side of the road. And a car come off its hitch and land in a ditch. Luckily, there was very little damage to the car, and no damage to people or property. But since I've taken up kayaking seriously, and obtained good equipment (Thule racks, kayak saddles, straps, and lines to attach to front and back of my car), I haven't had any problems. BijiliE *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Consider youself well served. Once year Scotty S. charged us each $10 for a shuttle. After collecting the cash, he tied all the boats to his hitch, and started driving! No trailer, no racks, only a rope. Richard Culpeper BijiliE_at_aol.com wrote: > I bought my Aquaterra Spectrum from an outfitter friend of mine (who shall > forever remained unnamed). After I took delivery, I found out that the boat > had fallen off her kayak trailer and dragged along the ground for a while. --snip-- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> From: Bob Denton <BDenton_at_aquagulf.com> > What condition were the gutter rails in? What brand of rack? Did they test > the rack before departing? was there any movement in the racks? Did they hit > something that popped the trim? and from another post on the same subject: > Please describe how the Thule and Yak racks broke, and if there would have > been any way to discover or prevent the problem prior to failure. Hey Bob: Both the rack and the vehicle were fairly new. The racks were Thules. Yes, they were checked the after loading, and no there was no movement. Jake was as experienced as anyone in shuttling boats. No, they did not hit anything to pop the trim. My best guess is that the windage of two large boats on the highway simply tore off the gutter trim, so it was a trim failure rather than a rack failure. Trim isn't designed to be load bearing. Although not a factor in this incident, you are bang on target about the possibility of bumps popping the trim. The times I have broken or loosened either trim or rack attachments have always been on logging roads. I have gone over to using trailers whenever possible, and hang my long boats in slings (I just toss my short boat in my backseat and let it hang out the rear window). This approach is not without its own problems, but all in all I find it easier. On the my Thule racks I had a small metal tab break inside the attachment/clamp. On my Yaks a threaded bolt sheared. Aside from general jarring (I've lost everything from alternators to drive shafts on rough shuttles), I don't know why these parts wold fail. Also, the failure points were not visible for external inspection. To see where they broke you would have to disassemble the system, which is not practical, and even if you did so, the stress would probably only show up under x-rays. I am in no way trying to put down either Thule or Yak -- they make terrific products. It is just that short of building everything out of boron and titanium, I don't think it is possible to make a bombproof system, and I don't think that is practical to regularly test for metal fatigue. Consequently, I tie off to the frame of the vehicle or trailer as a failsafe. Here are a couple of related points that go beyond normal usage of racks. Folks up north need to keep an eye on rust if they use their racks in the winter. Two years ago I had a 4x4 spare tire mounted ski rack rot to pieces in one winter (yes, I bag my skiis). Roof mounted racks don't take the same abuse, but eventually suffer. Liberal amounts of grease can extend their lives significantly. Also, size and number of boats can cause difficulty. For example, I have warped racks by carrying a heavy 30' canoe. By bending the racks, the attachments/clamps could not sit properly. I have also had attachments/clamps slip due to gusts hitting a 36' kayak (obviously tied to a ladder to avoid snapping the bow), and due to gusts hitting a large load of single person kayaks (BTW, our record up here is 18 ww boats on one rack -- I told you we are not too bright). Of course these are examples of pushing perfectly good racks beyond what they are designed for. I just suggest that when folks go beyond their normal routine, that they take extra care until they learn just what their racks can and can not do. Finally, although I am not fully trusting in even the best designed and constructed racks, I am far more concerned about how people go about tying boats to their racks. Over the years I have seen some truly stupid things, not the least of which was last summer, when the fellow I was working for became quite angry for my wasting time re-tying the boats onto the trailer. He had never tied short boats on the trailer before, which had crossbars near the boat sprits. Several boats fell off the racks without falling off the trailer in the short distance between the compound and our rendezvous. He had become complacent and failed to review his tying system when one variable, the length of the boats, changed. The funny thing is that even when the dropped boats were pointed out to him, he refused to recognize that his system needed modification. (He used a similar line of thinking to justify his taking clients into ww without helmets -- he had never had a head injury, so obviously there was no need for head protection). It's this sort of tunnelvision that worries me. Rather than use tying system which satisfactorily but minimally meets normal needs, I like to have a bit of redundancy built in so that when something odd comes up -- be it a rough road, a big load, or a differently shaped boat -- I don't risk merrily tootling on my way oblivious to the souvenirs I am leaving in my wake. Cheers, Richard Culpeper *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
How large are the people up your way? mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
ROTFL! If you had any idea of my weight, you wouldn't be wondering ;> Seriously, the boats to which I referred are pretty neat. The 30' canoe is a War Canoe, and is used in Canada for sprint racing with crews of 15. The 36' kayak is a four person sprint racing kayak, which is amazingly fast. By comparison, every other kayak and canoe is a pig boat. Paddling one of these things is like paddling in a dream -- I just can't say enough about how exhilarating it is! Cheers, Richard Culpeper ---------- > From: Mark H. Hunt <mhh_at_aretha.jax.org> > To: Richard Culpeper <culpeper_at_geocities.com> > Cc: Paddlewise (E-mail) <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> > Subject: 30' Canoes & 36' Kayaks! > Date: Monday, November 30, 1998 2:26 PM > > How large are the people up your way? > mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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