A debate has ensued over on rec.boats.paddle about the merits/demerits of Goretex as used in dry suits and dry tops for paddling. The crowd on r.b.p. being mostly whitewater paddlers, and seeming to have a heavy proportion of folks from the Eastern USA (that's east of Denver), I thought it would be good to solicit anecdotal data from the Paddlewise throng. Our uses are somewhat different from the WW folks. Here are the questions I'd like to raise: 1. Have you used a Goretex dry suit/dry top? Do you prefer it over a completely water-vapor-impermeable fabric (i.e., coated nylon)? Or, do you prefer the coated stuff? Why? 2. For those who have extended experience with Goretex dry suits/dry tops: How do you keep the stuff water repellant (restore the DWR coating)? How do you clean it? (Or, do you *avoid* cleaning it?) What products have you used to clean it? ... to restore the DWR? How well do they work? What is the useful life for your Goretex dry suit/dry top? Years? Days of use? Thanks. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 11/18/98 7:45:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, dkruger_at_pacifier.com writes: << 1. Have you used a Goretex dry suit/dry top? Do you prefer it over a completely water-vapor-impermeable fabric (i.e., coated nylon)? Or, do you prefer the coated stuff? Why? >>>I have been using Gore paddle gear since Kokatat first tried it in their garments. I was sent a prototype drysuit that I ended up selling to my brother, which he is *still* using. I think it was '89 or so? I cringe at the thought of using a non-Gore garment <snob, if you will> ;) Reason: breathability, comfort 2. For those who have extended experience with Goretex dry suits/dry tops: How do you keep the stuff water repellant (restore the DWR coating)? >>> Nikwax products How do you clean it? (Or, do you *avoid* cleaning it?) >>>Nikwax products <TX-Direct wash in> What products have you used to clean it? ... to restore the DWR? How well do they work? >>> Nikwax products <am I repeating myself ;)> What is the useful life for your Goretex dry suit/dry top? Years? Days of use? >>> no less than with *coated* fabric. We have coated suits in our rental dept. that get heavy use for 2 years. When we sell them at our fall sale they still are quite *servicable* I usually trade up my Gore garments on the same schedule and they have been *used* pretty hard. maybe 200+ days. They are still servicable. Have yet to totally wear one out. Gotta *look* good you know ;) Kokatat takes care of us, too! I know, "Must be nice working at a paddle shop" <snicker> Anyone need a job??? >> Steve Scherrer President ACKS Alder Creek Kayak and Canoe 250 NE Tomahawk Island Dr. Portland, Oregon 97217 Web: http://www.aldercreek.com Email: aldercreek_at_aldercreek.com Phone: 503-285-0464 Fax: 503-285-0106 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Kruger [mailto:dkruger_at_pacifier.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 6:42 AM snip > 1. Have you used a Goretex dry suit/dry top? Do you prefer > it over a completely > water-vapor-impermeable fabric (i.e., coated nylon)? Or, do > you prefer the coated stuff? Why? I have a conventional, coated nylon dry-top as well as a Kokatat Gore-Tex drysuit. My preference is usually to loan the drytop to a friend and wear the Gore-Tex drysuit. It's much more comfortable (ie. much less clammy and sticky - I sweat quite well). > > 2. For those who have extended experience with Goretex dry > suits/dry tops: > > How do you keep the stuff water repellant (restore the DWR coating)? I use the Nikwax products for cleaning and restoring the WR coating > > How do you clean it? (Or, do you *avoid* cleaning it?) I'm a big believer in keeping GoreTex clean - the stuff is too expensive to allow it to slowly be ground up by all the collected dirt, salt, etc that can get trapped in the fabric. Again - Nikwax. > > What products have you used to clean it? ... to restore the > DWR? How well do they work? See above..... > > What is the useful life for your Goretex dry suit/dry top? > Years? Days of use? I've had my Kokatat drysuit for 6 years - I keep it pretty clean (fresh water rinse after each use), use 303 on the gaskets, and it's still going strong. I probably use it 40-50 times a year. Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
2. For those who have extended experience with Goretex dry suits/dry tops: How do you keep the stuff water repellant (restore the DWR coating)? How do you clean it? (Or, do you *avoid* cleaning it?) What products have you used to clean it? ... to restore the DWR? How well do they work? What is the useful life for your Goretex dry suit/dry top? Years? Days of use? >Get some of the poop direct from the horse's, err, umm, mouth: http://www.kokatat.com/customer.htm *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 07:42 AM 11/18/98 -0800, Dave Kruger wrote: I use a Goretex suit (Kokatat), but don't use it heavily. I think the comfort they provide is the only way to go. Another guy I know who uses his drysuit pretty heavily and switched back to a waterproof one on his last upgrade cause he says the little bit of H2O that accumulates for him isn't worth the extra money ($300+). To each his own. I have somewhat of a care and feeding of Goretex on the Lightning Paddles Website, mostly cribbed from the Wavelength and Paddlewise discussion posts almost a year ago. It's at: http://www.paddles.com/users/wildcamp/goretex.html Hank Hays Lightning Paddles, Inc. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I would like to add this question: Could the drysuit be worn all of a 70 or 80 degF day on a long distance paddle without having to do a roll every half hour to cool off? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>> I would like to add this question: Could the drysuit be worn all of a 70 or 80 degF day on a long distance paddle without having to do a roll every half hour to cool off? >> ************************************************************************** * My experience is no, though it is possible that much of my overheating is due to my heavy-duty PFD. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> -----Original Message----- > From: Gerald Foodman [mailto:klagjf_at_worldnet.att.net] > Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 1:02 PM > To: Dave Kruger; PaddleWise > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Gore-Tex or Not? > > > I would like to add this question: Could the drysuit be worn > all of a 70 or > 80 degF day on a long distance paddle without having to do a > roll every half > hour to cool off? Just my own experience here, but I roast in a drysuit (Gore-Tex or not) when the temps are above the lower sixties. (Thankfully I live in a place where it doesn't often get much warmer than that!) When the weather gets warm, but the water is still cold, I often just go with my "Farmer Brown" wetsuit. The water conditions also play a part in my choice of apparel - if it's windy and choppy I might opt for the drysuit - especially if the water is cold - simply because of the greater likelihood of taking an unplanned swim. Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
..... >be good to solicit anecdotal data from the Paddlewise throng. Our uses >are somewhat different from >the WW folks. Here are the questions I'd like to raise: Have I missed out on the special offer?, where do I send away for my paddlewise goretex thong?......oh, *throng*,...er, nevermind *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: > > A debate has ensued over on rec.boats.paddle about the merits/demerits of Goretex as used in dry > suits and dry tops for paddling. The crowd on r.b.p. being mostly whitewater paddlers, and seeming > to have a heavy proportion of folks from the Eastern USA (that's east of Denver), I thought it would > be good to solicit anecdotal data from the Paddlewise throng. Our uses are somewhat different from Dave; Don't let anyone fool you. There is no debate. Gortex is far and away superior to coated nylon for drysuits and tops. Any debate is from those who have coated nylon and are trying to rationalize not getting Gortex. As always, my most humble opinion. John Winskill > the WW folks. Here are the questions I'd like to raise: > > 1. Have you used a Goretex dry suit/dry top? Do you prefer it over a completely > water-vapor-impermeable fabric (i.e., coated nylon)? Or, do you prefer the coated stuff? Why? > > 2. For those who have extended experience with Goretex dry suits/dry tops: > > How do you keep the stuff water repellant (restore the DWR coating)? > > How do you clean it? (Or, do you *avoid* cleaning it?) > > What products have you used to clean it? ... to restore the DWR? How well do they work? > > What is the useful life for your Goretex dry suit/dry top? Years? Days of use? > > Thanks. > -- > Dave Kruger > Astoria, OR > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John C. Winskill wrote: > Dave: > Don't let anyone fool you. There is no debate. Gortex is far and away > superior to coated nylon for drysuits and tops. Any debate is from > those who have coated nylon and are trying to rationalize not getting > Gortex. Dear John: (Always wanted to write a "Dear John" letter. Guess this is my moment.) Not fooled. I use and love the stuff. Wrote the original post to attempt to document how people maintain it (not an insignificant issue), and how long a typical dry suit/drytop lasts. Have you got anecdotal data for us? Here's mine: I'm on my second Kokatat drytop -- first one died after 4 years of regular use -- failed at the edges of the seam tape. Kokatat replaced it *for the cost of the seals!* Can't beat that guarantee! My experience with restoring the DWR is mixed. Washed the first one a couple times, and used the Nikwax products Steve, Hank, and others recommend -- both for the washing and to restore the DWR. Applied the near-steam-setting iron to the inside of the fabric to push the DWR out to the outside of the fabric (per Kokatat instructions). Not a big success -- after 2 - 3 seasons, the DWR was unrestorable. (Probably unconsolable, also. It's an Italian thing, I think.) The second one is faring better. Have NOT washed it -- but I have RINSED it a lot in plain water. Have not used any DWR restoring agents on it. Got a year and 3/4 use on the second one. In my "stable" of Goretex garments, the Kokatat stuff is the best. Since I decided to minimize washing the garments, they seem to work better. Second conclusion: if your wet pleasures involve mud and slime -- don't use Goretex -- cleaning it really does a number on the DWR, which really enhances its performance. OTOH, even when the DWR is gone, it's still WAY ahead of any fully water-vapor-impermeable stuff. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR sometime organic chemist *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:14 AM 11/19/98 -0800, Dave Kruger wrote: >John C. Winskill wrote: > >> Dave: >> Don't let anyone fool you. There is no debate. Gortex is far and away >> superior to coated nylon for drysuits and tops. Any debate is from >> those who have coated nylon and are trying to rationalize not getting >> Gortex. > >Dear John: > >(Always wanted to write a "Dear John" letter. Guess this is my moment.) > >Not fooled. I use and love the stuff. Wrote the original post to attempt to document how people >maintain it (not an insignificant issue), and how long a typical dry suit/drytop lasts. Have you >got anecdotal data for us? Here's mine: > >I'm on my second Kokatat drytop -- first one died after 4 years of regular use -- failed at the >edges of the seam tape. Kokatat replaced it *for the cost of the seals!* Can't beat that >guarantee! My experience with restoring the DWR is mixed. Washed the first one a couple times, and >used the Nikwax products Steve, Hank, and others recommend -- both for the washing and to restore >the DWR. Applied the near-steam-setting iron to the inside of the fabric to push the DWR out to the >outside of the fabric (per Kokatat instructions). Not a big success -- after 2 - 3 seasons, the DWR >was unrestorable. (Probably unconsolable, also. It's an Italian thing, I think.) > >The second one is faring better. Have NOT washed it -- but I have RINSED it a lot in plain water. >Have not used any DWR restoring agents on it. Got a year and 3/4 use on the second one. In my >"stable" of Goretex garments, the Kokatat stuff is the best. Since I decided to minimize washing >the garments, they seem to work better. > >Second conclusion: if your wet pleasures involve mud and slime -- don't use Goretex -- cleaning it >really does a number on the DWR, which really enhances its performance. OTOH, even when the DWR is >gone, it's still WAY ahead of any fully water-vapor-impermeable stuff. > >-- >Dave Kruger >Astoria, OR >sometime organic chemist >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** > > My Kokotat gortex dry suit is five years old. I have taken the gortex suit on several long sea kayak trips and have warn it for a total of about 75 days. I have only washed it twice. The DWR is holding up OK on the top part but I think the seat leaks. It's hard to say as alot of sweat builds up in the suit while encased in spray skirt/boat. But while setting up camp most of the condensed moisture disappears if the ambient conditions are ideal. If the temps are low, I've found the suit to be quite cold due to the cooling effect of evaporation. I believe the material is three layer and seems to be more durable than say a North Face mt. light jacket but it's prone to abrasive wear. Extensive wear points in and near the spray skirt area appeared after only a couple of weeks use. Prompting the Kokotat rep to say "Even Steph Dutton hasn't returned things in such condition". That area has required alot of aqua seal repairs. The gaskets have given me alot of trouble. They wore out twice, allthough i still have one of the original ankle gaskets. I've used 303 protectant and tried to take good care of the gaskets but they sometimes only last 5-7 days. This is a separate issue but I think the latex gaskets are a very weak link and can not be depended on during a long trip. Field repairs are possible though tedious. I've heard OS Systems has better gaskets than Kokotat. So for me the gortex drysuit is slightly more comfortable than the non breathable type but condensation is still a problem and wearing enough insulating layers for the water temperature is still a problem. I guess the only solution is allways remain seated. -Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Someone had written about using an iron on the INSIDE to push DWR to the outside of Goretex. I find myself confused about this. In reading the Kokatat pages at .... http://www.kokatat.com/toptenqa.htm I am led to believe that you would run the iron over the OUTSIDE of the garment as the heat draws the treatment to the surface. neal_at_bellhow.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Neil Somos wrote: > > Someone had written about using an iron on the INSIDE to > push DWR to the outside of Goretex. I find myself confused > about this. In reading the Kokatat pages at .... > http://www.kokatat.com/toptenqa.htm > I am led to believe that you would run the iron over the OUTSIDE > of the garment as the heat draws the treatment to the surface. Yup, that's what it says there -- pretty close to a direct quote. Far be it from me to contradict Kokatat. However, this advice is different from what Kokatat told me previously. Frankly, Neil, I'm about as puzzled as you are. My earlier post (in which I said to iron from the INSIDE)was based on a phone conversation I had with a Kokatat representative back in October, 1996. I was surprised at her advice to iron on the INSIDE of the garment, being brainwashed by many years of ironing shirts to think ironing on the outside was the way to go. Her claim was that the heat "vaporized" the DWR from the inner surface of the OUTER layer of the laminate -- depositing DWR stuff onto the outer surface of the outer layer of the laminate. That made sense to me, based on the properties I would expect for a DWR coating -- gotta be nonpolar, and somewhat volatile, in order to be applied via spray can. This is "dumb chemist" analysis, and usually correct, but wrong often enough that first-hand knowledge is certainly desirable here. Anybody tried ironing both ways? I don't have enough experience with ironing Goretex to say, from what I've tried. Thanks, Neil, for bringing this up. Kokatat's site, BTW, has other useful info, also. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR dumb organic chemist, and getting dumber by the day *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: David Seng <David_at_wainet.com> To: PaddleWise <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 2:57 PM Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Goretex or Not? > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Gerald Foodman [mailto:klagjf_at_worldnet.att.net] >> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 1:02 PM >> To: Dave Kruger; PaddleWise >> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Gore-Tex or Not? >> >> >> I would like to add this question: Could the drysuit be worn >> all of a 70 or >> 80 degF day on a long distance paddle without having to do a >> roll every half >> hour to cool off? > > Just my own experience here, but I roast in a drysuit (Gore-Tex or >not) when the temps are above the lower sixties. (Thankfully I live in >a place where it doesn't often get much warmer than that!) >When the weather gets warm, but the water is still cold, I often just go >with my "Farmer Brown" wetsuit. The water conditions also play a part >in my choice of apparel - if it's windy and choppy I might opt for the >drysuit - especially if the water is cold - simply because of the >greater likelihood of taking an unplanned swim. > >Dave Seng >Juneau, Alaska I very much agree with this. Paddling here in NW Washington, for a long time I much preferred a 3mm farmer john with a polypropylene top, +/- a paddling jacket. I initially tried a nongoretex drysuit and didn't like it because I got very wet. I finally gor a Goretex drysuit and find I get less wet, but I still get wet - as much as a cup in each extremity depending on how long I'm working out, how damp the weather, etc. Maybe I just sweat a lot! Nonetheless, I find there are real advantages to the Goretex drysuit for colder or windier conditions. But I don't expect it to keep me perfectly dry. I usually wear 2 mm long leg neoprene pants plus a pile top under the drysuit. This is a lot less restrictive than heavier neoprene. So if it's 45F and windy, or below freezing in any conditions, I'll switch to the drysuit. But if I was on a limited budget, I'd probably stick to the 3mm neoprene plus paddling top. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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