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From: Reeves, Debbie (Debbie) <"Reeves,>
subject: [Paddlewise] Waterspouts
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:18:15 -0500
Roberto -

I am writing in response to an item you posted to Paddlewise on January 20,
1999 regarding waterspouts.  Four of us from the New Jersey area were in
Florida last week and did have an occasion with waterspouts.  Two of us
happened to have gone back in to shore to retrieve something and watched as
3 waterspouts dropped down.  There was nothing we could do but stand on the
shoreline and wonder how the other 2 people we were with were managing out
on the water.  Of course, there was sudden wind and a downpour that
accompanied it.  

The other 2 people were in a folding kayak, a Klepper, with a sail rig.
When they saw what was happening, they headed for shore as quick as they
could.  They are still down in Florida and will be returning sometime before
the end of the month.  Feel free to contact Jamy Levine [jlevine214_at_aol.com]
directly for his personal experience.  

Debbie Reeves
Sandy Hook, NJ
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From: Larry Bliven <foxhill_at_shore.intercom.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Waterspouts
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 05:47:16 -0500
Hail at sea?

i'm currious to read reports of hail at sea. weather folks tell me that it
is not common because the vertical air profile is moist, whereas a dry layer
is usually found in overland areas that receive hail.

So, who as encountered hail at sea?

what got my interest is a strange fresh water signature at 30 ft below the
sea surface that has been attributed to rain. i doubt that rain can
penetrate that deep because the fresh water is too light compared to the
salty water. on the otherhand, hail is very cold and thus dense - so it
might mix with the salt water and sink.

who been hit by hail out there?

cu
bliven

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert C. Cline <rcline_at_onramp.net>
To: Jackie Fenton <jackie_at_intelenet.net>; paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net
<paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net>
Date: Thursday, January 21, 1999 12:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Waterspouts


>>>
>>> I thought you might know of someone there, through your GASP list, who
>>> might be able to help us out. Any assistance you can lend would be
>>> greatly appreciated.
>>>
>
>I've been out in the Gulf... miles from shore and seen waterspouts, but in
>a motorboat.  They really presented no problem to the motor boat because
>the motor boat could out-run the spout.  Kayaks would not fair so well.
>I've also flown around many a thunderstorm (I'm a pilot also).  Isolated
>Thunderstorms are easy to avoid if you have a motor.. the problem here is
>staying away from the anvil...which spits out hail (hail is very bad for
>airplanes).  Lines of thunderstorms are another issue.  Kayaks, motorboats
>or airplanes are in trouble... if you can't go overthem, you might find
>yourself in an unhealty situation.
>
>RC
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From: Product Information Department <pid_at_mec.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Hail Seas-err,
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:29:22 -0800
At 05:47 AM 1/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Hail at sea?
>
>i'm currious to read reports of hail at sea. weather folks tell me that it
>is not common because the vertical air profile is moist, whereas a dry layer
>is usually found in overland areas that receive hail.
>
>So, who as encountered hail at sea?
>
>what got my interest is a strange fresh water signature at 30 ft below the
>sea surface that has been attributed to rain. i doubt that rain can
>penetrate that deep because the fresh water is too light compared to the
>salty water. on the otherhand, hail is very cold and thus dense - so it
>might mix with the salt water and sink.
>
>who been hit by hail out there?
>
>cu
>bliven

I was paddling with two companions on a long weekend trip early last spring
in the northern Gulf Islands (by the South East end of Vancouver Island),
when we had the biggest variety of weather I've ever encountered in the
shortest time. During the course of a two hour crossing we went from bright
sunshine with light winds, to torrential rain with strong gusts, to thunder
and lighting, about fifteen minutes of hail, and finally back to sunshine,
with steady wind. Wild! 
Sorry, we neglected to lower sample bottles to thirty feet to check out the
halocline :-) However, the Gulfs are an area of major tidal exchanges, so
I'd be surprised if any "layer" of fresh water, if it ever existed, wasn't
rapidly churned into oblivion anyway.

Cheers,



Philip T.
N49°16' W123°08' 
"The opinions expressed in this posting are not necessarily those of my
employer, or indeed, of any sentient being."
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From: Bob Denton <BDenton_at_aquagulf.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Waterspouts
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:34:42 -0500
Ice Floats!
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From: Larry Bliven <foxhill_at_shore.intercom.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Waterspouts
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 18:25:09 -0500
From: Bob Denton

>
>Ice Floats!
>

Yes, ice floats on salt water.
If the water is warmer than the ice, the ice melts producing cold water.
Cold water and sea water can mix.

The density of water increases as temperature decreases. Perhaps it is
possible, with the right conditions for the mixing process to produce water
that is slightly denser than the water around it. The slightly denser,
cooler and less saline water would then sink. the density tables for sea
water as a function of salt content and temperature led me to speculate that
this process might occur.

so i'm trolling to see if there are observations of hail over the ocean...
because i can't find reports of it in journals, on the web, or through
discussions with a couple of weather/oceanographer types...by communicating
with folks with time at sea in lots of locations, perhaps i'll know more
about hail at sea.

a former American Meterological Society President discussed with me that he
has seen a NOAA salinity time series from a sensor at 30 ft that has a fresh
water feature. note that fresh water feature means that the salinity dropped
from 34 parts per 1000 to 32/1000.  Not a huge change, but noteable in the
data record. he claims it is due to rain. i think it was more likely to have
been a hail storm.

what the hail, talk's cheap.
and ice floats.

bliven

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From: Bob Denton <BDenton_at_aquagulf.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Waterspouts
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:37:48 -0500
Here in Florida we often get a layer of fresh water on top of the salt water
after heavy rains. I've seen conditions where there was a layer of fresh
water sandwiched between salt. It was probably related to cold rain hitting
warm seas with little wind and wave action. Also heavy dumping of the
Everglades can cause a similar effect.

cya
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From: Bob Denton <BDenton_at_aquagulf.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Waterspouts
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:43:36 -0500
Typical Florida waterspouts dissipate when they can't support all the water
they've sucked up. Tornadoes here are generally much weaker then in Tornado
Alley.

cya 
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From: Bob Denton <BDenton_at_aquagulf.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Waterspouts
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:25:12 -0400
Typically the waterspouts are not too powerful but you wouldn't want to be
caught in one in your kayak! I've had friends in fishing boats get close
with no ill effects, BUT they vary in strength. They are, tornados, after
all. Usually they peter out when they suck up sufficient water to drown
themselves.

I am no expert on waterspouts...

cya

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net
[mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Phares Heindl
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 10:42 AM
To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net
Subject: [Paddlewise] WaterSpouts


Has anyone had any experience with encountering water spouts. I almost ran
in to one last week. It was beautiful, perfectly formed funnel of the
Southwest coast of Florida. I was close to shore, so when I saw it, I did an
abrupt about face and sped to shore.

I was wondering if anyone has any experience or advice as to evasive action
to take in the event or a water spout.

PS. I'm new to this list. I used to post to Wavelength years ago.

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