Tim,et al: I find it interesting that there is support amongst people for the re entry and roll, other than in just the UK. Yet, in John Dowds updated verson of "Sea Kayaking" he likens this manouver to a stunt, comparing it to the now defunct "drown-proofing" technique taught cold water victims a few years ago, ut was proved deadly. Am I missing something here? Is a valid self rescue a stunt, or do certain authors like being iconoclastic? Doug Lloyd Victoria BC Tim wrote: > >I am a big believer in the paddlefloat rentry and roll technique. It works >in very rough water, its fast, and it doesn't require rodeo style gymnastics >to get back into a bucking boat. It does take practice, but once learned >anyone ---- with or without rolling experience --- can use it to get back in >a boat. > >Just to be most clear about what I'm talking about, let me describe exactly >what I mean by this technique. Frist, you swim next to your boat and attach >a paddle float. Hold the paddle next to the boat, take a big breath, flip >upside down and renter the boat. That upside down re-entry step is the one >that takes practice. It can be a bit dis-orienting down there. Once in the >boat, sweep the paddle out to 90 degrees and execute a hip snap. The hip >snap can be real sloppy 'cause the paddlefloat provides so much bouancy. In >other words, you don't need to know how to roll to make this work. > >I use this even though I can re-enter and roll without the float. Why? >Well, the downside of any re-enter and roll method is once you are up, >there's going to be lots of water in the cockpit. The paddle float at the >end of the paddle gives you a great outrigger to stabilize things while you >pump out your boat. > >If you haven't tried this technique, its worth experimemting with. Other >paddlefloat rentry methods would be bitterly difficult in rough water. This >one's a breeze. The only problem with it is that re-enter upsidedown trick, >but that just takes practice. > >--Tim > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dlloyd_at_inetex.com [SMTP:dlloyd_at_inetex.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 5:31 PM >> To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net >> Subject: >> >> My club is having a pool session here in Victoria this weekend. The last >> one, we had a number of very large women who had difficulty doing self >> rescue AND assisted rescues. Alas, they were told to definetly not solo >> paddle, and on group trips, stay within swimming distance of shore. Does >> anyone have any ideas. We tried the stirrup meathod, which gave the >> mid-range weighted ladies a "leg-up", but I hate to see the heavier ladies >> curtailed so much from paddling. This is a serious question, asked by the >> ladies themselves, so please, no super silly remarks, just some >> constructive >> advice. PS We have one large fellow who HAS upper body strength, and still >> is having difficulties. >> >> Doug Lloyd >> Victoria BC >> >> ************************************************************************** >> * >> PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >> Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >> Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >> Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >> ************************************************************************** >> * >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Re-entry and roll with a paddle float is a much more viable technique than without. I would agree with Dowd's observation: in capsize conditions, to re-enter, regain paddle grip and roll up is pretty unlikely. Best, Jim > Tim, et al. > I find it interesting that there is support amongst people for the re entry > and roll, other than in just the UK. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I consider the re-entry roll without a paddle float, in rough conditions to be little more than a trick. It would get you up, but unless you have an electric pump, you'd most likely capsize as you tried to pump out the boat. When you use a paddle float, though, the re-entry roll is a great self rescue technique --- even in horrible conditions. In rough water, its much easier than the paddlefloat outrigger rescue. And once you're up, the paddlefloat at the end of the paddle keeps you up while you pump out the cockpit. If John Dowd doesn't like the method, that's his problem. He knows a lot about kayaking, but he's just plain wrong when it comes to the Paddle-float re-entry and roll. Try it sometimes and you'll see what I mean. In fact, I'm going to prove to everyone that I can be just as arrogant as John Dowd is in his books. I challenge anyone to a rough water contest between the two techniques. I'm confident I'll win!!!!! --Tim P.S. I've never met John Dowd so I need to emphasize that I am not calling him arrogant. I find the tone of his books a bit arrogant, but that could very well just be his writting style, not his personnel style. -----Original Message----- From: VajraT_at_aol.com To: dlloyd_at_inetex.com; PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net Sent: 1/29/99 4:04 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Re enrty/roll Re-entry and roll with a paddle float is a much more viable technique than without. I would agree with Dowd's observation: in capsize conditions, to re-enter, regain paddle grip and roll up is pretty unlikely. Best, Jim > Tim, et al. > I find it interesting that there is support amongst people for the re entry > and roll, other than in just the UK. ************************************************************************ *** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ************************************************************************ *** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:59 AM 1/29/99 -0800, you wrote: > >I consider the re-entry roll without a paddle float, in rough conditions to >be little more than a trick. It would get you up, but unless you have an >electric pump, you'd most likely capsize as you tried to pump out the boat. > >When you use a paddle float, though, the re-entry roll is a great self >rescue technique --- even in horrible conditions. In rough water, its much >easier than the paddlefloat outrigger rescue. And once you're up, the >paddlefloat at the end of the paddle keeps you up while you pump out the >cockpit. Tim, I'm asking this seriously in the hope of learning something, not flippantly (so to speak). How do you work the pump down the sprayskirt tunnel and operate it with one hand while bracing on the paddle with the other. Or were you assuming use of a footpump or electric pump? > >If John Dowd doesn't like the method, that's his problem. He knows a lot >about kayaking, but he's just plain wrong when it comes to the Paddle-float >re-entry and roll. Try it sometimes and you'll see what I mean. > >>P.S. I've never met John Dowd so I need to emphasize that I am not calling >him arrogant. I find the tone of his books a bit arrogant, but that could >very well just be his writting style, not his personnel style. I have had the pleasure of meeting John Dowd in person a few times, and he certainly doesn't come on at all "big time" In fact, he's retiring to the point of diffidence. And he's big enough to admit in print that he doesn't know it all, and that his views reflect the limitations of his (rather considerable) experience. For example, more recent editions of his "Sea Kayaking - A Manual for Long Distance Touring" acknowledge the limitations of rescues such as the "X" and "H" rescues that he taught for years. So, I imagine he's open to changing his mind if you could make a solid case to him that this rescue is really viable for some people, and has some advantages over other techniques. Cheers Philip T. N49°16' W123°08' "The opinions expressed in this posting are not necessarily those of my employer, or indeed, of any sentient being." *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> Tim, I'm asking this seriously in the hope of learning something, not > flippantly (so to speak). How do you work the pump down the sprayskirt > tunnel and operate it with one hand while bracing on the paddle with the > other. Or were you assuming use of a footpump or electric pump? Please allow me to answer that. Hand held pumps are pretty much useless in rough water, unless there is someone else who can stabilize your boat. You can balance yourself with the paddlefloat as an outrigger, but with that, pumping takes an awful lot of time. Then, balancing is difficult because you are using both hands for pumping, and quickly grabbing the paddle with the paddlefloat when about capsize again. The bilge pump that many British boats have, which is actuated with one hand and the spray skirt on, works fairly well. You can leverage the paddle on your deck, while holding onto it with one hand, while the other moves the pump. Foot pumps have one problem. If they are not properly installed, your legs would be busy pumping out water instead of bracing inside the boat. Some people have successfully installed foot pumps in a way that they can have their knees braced under the cockpit, while using their ankles to move the pump. Electric pumps have many failure points --batteries, the pump itself, electric wires, mud blocking the inlet slits. They are very nice to have when they work, but carry a backup. Now let us shift to actual experience. A proficient paddler got out once in very rough seas in Monterey Bay (CA). He capsized and used his paddlefloat to get back on his boat. It is unknown whether he used standard paddlefloat rescue or paddlefloat reentry and roll. The conditions did not allow him to pump out the boat. So, he grabbed his radio, and called for help. He stayed upright using his paddle with the paddlefloat to brace. When the Coast Guard found him more than an hour later, he was suffering mild hypothermia. His, was definitely the right course of action. It can be argued that he should have had a reliable roll, and thus have not come out of his boat. But in rough conditions we all eventually get tired, and our body might not put up with another roll attempt. Then is when we shift to another layer of safety and use other techniques, i.e. paddlefloat rescues. It can also be argued that he should have stayed home watching TV. But had he done that, he nor us would have learned anything. - Julio p.s. The best help is to have another proficient paddler with you. Make sure he is vegetarian, ask John Winters why. :-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I'm sorry Tim but I'm afraid you might well lose your challenge. I can think of two possibilities right off: 1. Use of a foot pump enables you to pump out while bracing or even paddling. 2. Use of an off-shoulder paddle brace or a forearm paddle brace would enable you to empty your boat with a pump also. Remember that the use of the paddlefloat is, for the most part, limited to North American and, though handy, it is only one tool in an arsenal. A great many world-class paddlers have never carried one with them. On the other hand, I have to disagree with John Dowd as well. The paddlefloat can be used to great effect when used as part of a re-enter and roll. It isn't as fast as a straight re-enter and roll but it is a whole lot faster than a standard paddlefloat rescue and you don't have to go through the hassle of removing the paddlefloat/paddle combination off your back deck when you're done. John Winskill Mattson, Timothy G wrote: > > I consider the re-entry roll without a paddle float, in rough conditions to > be little more than a trick. It would get you up, but unless you have an > electric pump, you'd most likely capsize as you tried to pump out the boat. >> snip >> > In fact, I'm going to prove to everyone that I can be just as arrogant as > John Dowd is in his books. I challenge anyone to a rough water contest > between the two techniques. I'm confident I'll win!!!!! > > --Tim > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> Tim, I'm asking this seriously in the hope of > learning something, not flippantly (so to speak). > How do you work the pump down the sprayskirt > tunnel and operate it with one hand while > bracing on the paddle with the other. Or were > you assuming use of a footpump or electric pump? Good question. I've practiced the following procedure and it works very well. I place the paddle with float attached across the coaming and lean forward onto the paddle shaft with both elbows. I apply some lean onto the paddlefloat making a very stable tripod configuration that keeps me up even in rough water. I can then operate the hand pump with both hands while continuing to lean on my elbows. The pump is inserted in front of me between the edge of the spray skirt and the coaming --- not through the tunnel. This may be difficult with an overly tight spray skirt, but it works fine with mine. --Tim *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/29/99 12:21:28 PM EST, timothy.g.mattson_at_intel.com writes: << P.S. I've never met John Dowd so I need to emphasize that I am not calling him arrogant. I find the tone of his books a bit arrogant, but that could very well just be his writting style, not his personnel style. >> Try reading Derek Hutchinsons books. Both have found a technique that works the best for them and write it up with enthusiasm. Get six experts together and you will have six different ways of doing everything. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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