In experiments last summer where I deliberately wet-exited and re-entered in surf, I was appalled at how long it took pump out my cockpit (when it was possible to do so at all), and by how destabilising even a small quantity of water was when sloshing back and forth in the boat (the "free surface effect"). I installed one of those 3D cell pumps, but frankly, I'm underwhelmed by the rate at which it empties a fully flooded cockpit. So, I'm going to experiment with a more passive, preventative approach - a seasock. Since the cockpit in my boat is rather large, I anticipate this will greatly reduce the amount of water shipped either by a wet exit or by wave action through the skirt edge. I may leave the electric pump in place behind my seat (and outside the sock) just to mop up any water that leaks through the sock. I'd use my trusty Scotty hand pump to empty the sock itself. Any tips from seasock users out there? Will the fabric of the seasock seal against and block the intake of my Scotty pump? Any other advise? Breathlessly awaiting being deluged by the fountain of knowledge that is PaddleWise. Philip T. N49°16' W123°08' "The opinions expressed in this posting are not necessarily those of my employer, or indeed, of any sentient being." *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I don't know about the Scotty, but the pump I got from Feathercraft has the intake holes on the side of the tube about a 1/4 inch up from the bottom so that it doesn't suck up the sock. Milo Poughkeepsie, NY -----Original Message----- From: Product Information Department <pid_at_mec.ca> To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 2:05 PM Subject: [Paddlewise] non-pumping socksual fulfillment <snipped> I'd use my trusty Scotty hand pump to empty the sock itself. Any tips from seasock users out there? Will the fabric of the seasock seal against and block the intake of my Scotty pump? Any other advise? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> In experiments last summer where I deliberately wet-exited and re-entered > in surf, I was appalled at how long it took pump out my cockpit (when it > was possible to do so at all), and by how destabilising even a small > quantity of water was when sloshing back and forth in the boat (the "free > surface effect"). I installed one of those 3D cell pumps, but frankly, I'm > underwhelmed by the rate at which it empties a fully flooded cockpit. > Since the cockpit in my boat is rather large, ........ The basic problem is too many manufacturers producing kayaks with excessively large cockpits, bulkheads too far back, no side compartments. Same complaint (sorry to mention it) about rudder pedals - BAD design. What can you do? Complain to the manufacturers or sue them (seems to be your traditional way :-) . Fortunately here, some\most local manufacturers produce small volume cockpits. Other option (the real one), fill the excess space with foam blocks. Alex -- ---------------------------------------------------- Alex Ferguson a.ferguson_at_chem.canterbury.ac.nz Electronics Workshop, Chem Dept, Univ of Canterbury Christchurch, New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:16 AM 1/14/99 +0000, you wrote: >The basic problem is too many manufacturers producing >kayaks with excessively large cockpits, bulkheads too far >back, no side compartments. Same complaint (sorry to >mention it) about rudder pedals - BAD design. > > >Other option (the real one), fill the excess space with foam >blocks. > >Alex As a general observation, I'd agree with you that cockpits are often bigger than they need to be. Large cockpits do offer some advantages: On some models you can adjust the seat fore-and-aft placement to customize the boat's handling. If the forward bulkhead is far enough forward, you can slide down and sleep in the boat, though this probably benefits only a very small percentage of paddlers. Space behind the seat is handy for stuff you'll want during the day but don't want to remove your spare paddle on the rear deck and rear deck hatch to get at. I notice some British designs solve this problem in a more sea-worthy way by having a second rear bulkhead which creates an entirely separate compartment just behind the seat, accessed by its own separate "dayhatch". >From a designer's/retailer's point of view, I imagine bigger cockpits offer the advantage that "one size (sort of) fits all" so you don't need to design or stock as many models, which can be expensive. Comments and/or corrections from the trade welcome. >What can you do? Complain to the manufacturers or sue them >(seems to be your traditional way :-) No, Alex, as you can see from my latitude and longitude, I'm Canadian. Those are Americans you're thinking of, who sue at the drop of a cup of hot coffee :-). Canadians take about as kindly to being lumped in with Americans as Kiwis do to being confused with Aussies :-). The best way to tell the difference is to loudly proclaim that they're all the same. The ones who start sputtering in indignation or muttering about socialized health care and gun control will be the Canadians. Cheers, Philip T. N49°16' W123°08' "The opinions expressed in this posting are not necessarily those of my employer, or indeed, of any sentient being." *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> >The basic problem is too many manufacturers producing > >kayaks with excessively large cockpits, bulkheads too far > >back, [Philip T.] > As a general observation, I'd agree with you that cockpits are often bigger > than they need to be. Large cockpits do offer some advantages: > > On some models you can adjust the seat fore-and-aft placement to customize > the boat's handling. No, fitting the bulkhead way aft of the cockpit rim was my objection, makes no difference to the seat position. > If the forward bulkhead is far enough forward, you can slide down and sleep > in the boat, though this probably benefits only a very small percentage of > paddlers. I'd say excedingly small. > Space behind the seat is handy for stuff you'll want during the day but > don't want to remove your spare paddle on the rear deck and rear deck hatch > to get at. Just how much do you want in that case? > I notice some British designs solve this problem in a more > sea-worthy way by having a second rear bulkhead which creates an entirely > separate compartment just behind the seat, Common here on NZ kayaks. > No, Alex, as you can see from my latitude and longitude, I'm Canadian. > Those are Americans you're thinking of, who sue at the drop of a cup of hot > coffee :-). Sorry, my apologies. :-) Alex -- ---------------------------------------------------- Alex Ferguson a.ferguson_at_chem.canterbury.ac.nz Electronics Workshop, Chem Dept, Univ of Canterbury Christchurch, New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>The basic problem is too many manufacturers producing >kayaks with excessively large cockpits, bulkheads too far >back, no side compartments. Same complaint (sorry to >mention it) about rudder pedals - BAD design. I paddle a Current Designs GTS. I am probably going to move and angle my rear bulkhead to for several reasons including decreasing the volume in the cockpit. Any tips on materials (or measuring the inside of the hull!) would be appreciated. Here is another question as far as emptying a boat is concerned. Is there a method for removing at least some of the water out of the boat before doing a re-entry and roll? Assume that this solo, no one around to help empty out the boat. I've tried swimming around to the bow and forcing it up in the air, but with a full boat it just plunges me under water, PFD and all. -Patrick -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick Maun pmaun_at_bitstream.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Alex Ferguson wrote: > The basic problem is too many manufacturers producing > kayaks with excessively large cockpits, bulkheads too far > back, no side compartments. Same complaint (sorry to > mention it) about rudder pedals - BAD design. I reduced the cockpit volume by removing the forward bulkhead and putting in an okoume and fiberglass one further aft. At the same time I replaced the sliding rudder pedals with pivoting ones from Seaward. I had to do the pedal switch to allow the bulkhead to be moved in tight; as the sliding ones wouldn't have clearance. I put a shelf above as well. I considered doing the rear bulkhead as well. I like the sloped design of rear bulkheads on the British style boats. Instead, I elected to leave it and filled the space with a first aid kit (three one-litre Nalgene wide-mouth bottles in a webbing sling clipped to the rear bulkhead) and various rigid containers (GSI Lexan case for wallet, glasses, keys etc, Lexan water bottles etc. ) Overall, the reduction is about 45 liters, thirty five from the bulkhead move and about ten from containers and a "stuffed" shelf. The effect of a wet exit is only about ten or fifteen litres though, but it's that much less to pump. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/13/99 2:49:11 PM Pacific Standard Time, pmaun_at_bitstream.net writes: << Here is another question as far as emptying a boat is concerned. Is there a method for removing at least some of the water out of the boat before doing a re-entry and roll? Assume that this solo, no one around to help empty out the boat. >> With some boats it is possible to push down on the inverted stern and raise the bow out of the water enough to drain the cockpit. If you give it a twist as you lower the boat back to the water you will end up with an empty boat ready for you to climb back into and paddle away. The trick here seems to be a fine stern, little room behind the seat, some body weight and technique. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/13/99 5:11:53 PM Central Standard Time, pmaun_at_bitstream.net writes: > I paddle a Current Designs GTS. I am probably going to move and angle my > rear bulkhead to for several reasons including decreasing the volume in the > cockpit. Any tips on materials (or measuring the inside of the hull!) would > be appreciated. > Patrick, I would make a cardboard template around the outside of the boat with the appropriate angle in the spot where you want the bulkhead. Then just make a flat fiberglass board and cut it out a tad smaller than your pattern. Tack it in place with a couple of strips, then glass tape it in. Rob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
The hard part is the one that sounds simple: making the cardboard template. The owner of Riptides&Rapids here in California, who also makes canoes under the brand Black Magic Boat Works, gave me the secret to make those cardboard templates. He wraps a wire on the inner surface of the hull, takes it out carefully, and then lays it on the cardboard. He cuts the cardboard a little bigger so that it can be cut down to make small corrections. I saw him make several "day hatches" for many customers; the boats look like they came out the factory that way. My (his) two cents :-) - Julio > > In a message dated 1/13/99 5:11:53 PM Central Standard Time, > pmaun_at_bitstream.net writes: > > > I paddle a Current Designs GTS. I am probably going to move and angle my > > rear bulkhead to for several reasons including decreasing the volume in the > > cockpit. Any tips on materials (or measuring the inside of the hull!) would > > be appreciated. > > > > Patrick, I would make a cardboard template around the outside of the boat with > the appropriate angle in the spot where you want the bulkhead. > Then just make a flat fiberglass board and cut it out a tad smaller than your > pattern. > Tack it in place with a couple of strips, then glass tape it in. > Rob > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:03 PM 1/14/99 -0500, Michael Daly <mikedaly_at_interlog.com> wrote: SNIP >further aft. At the same time I replaced the sliding >rudder pedals with pivoting ones from Seaward. I had >to do the pedal switch to allow the bulkhead to be moved >in tight; as the sliding ones wouldn't have clearance. I put a >shelf above as well. > Michael, I would like to learn more about the pivoting rudder pedals. Does Seaward have a web page and/or can you provide any other info? Thanks, Bill Leonhardt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Bill Leonhardt wrote: > At 12:03 PM 1/14/99 -0500, Michael Daly <mikedaly_at_interlog.com> wrote: > SNIP > > >further aft. At the same time I replaced the sliding > >rudder pedals with pivoting ones from Seaward. I had > >to do the pedal switch to allow the bulkhead to be moved > >in tight; as the sliding ones wouldn't have clearance. I put a > >shelf above as well. > > > Michael, > > I would like to learn more about the pivoting rudder pedals. Does Seaward > have a web page and/or can you provide any other info? Try: http://www.seawardkayaks.com/features.html Scroll to the bottom of the page and they have a photo of the pedals. There is also a review of a Seaward kayak in Sea Kayaker a while back from which they take a quote. When I bought them by mail direct from Seaward, they were about C$110 (US$65) plus tax and shipping. I think the price they quote is US and adjust for other currencies accordingly. The pedals are much better than the standard sliding pedals that you find in most kayaks. There's a little play in them - the axis on which they turn is not a super tight fit on the plastic bearing. However this slack is superficial. It's taken up buy the pressure of your foot resting on the pedal. In bracing there is negligible flex. With the rudder deployed, turning requires a sort of toe-point action if your feet are as big as mine (12+). Smaller feet may find simple rotation easier. I'd say they are ideal for folks who rarely use a rudder and prefer solid bracing footrests. If you use a rudder all the time, they may be awkward, though you definitely benefit from the rigid bracing. I'd like to hear from someone who uses them with a rudder deployed frequently. The surface of the pedal is curved, not flat. That may take getting used to. There is a flat section under the ball of your foot, but your toes rest on a section that curves away from you. I like it, but a kayak guide that paddled my boat for a few minutes didn't. If you reposition the pedal for another person, you have to adjust the length of the nylon straps that connect the pedals to the rudder cables. The length adjustment is with a Fastex type ladderlock. The reviewer in Sea Kayaker claimed that they slipped occasionally, however, I think the problem is stretching of the nylon webbing due to it getting wet. I've not had any problem with this and can't remember ever having to adjust the straps due to slip/stretch. But I also haven't ever used the rudder (except to test the system) so it may not be relevant for me. Mounting the pedal track is straightforward. I suppose it's unlikely that the holes in your kayak will match the length of the Seaward units, so you'll have to drill at least one hole per side and fill the old one to match everything up. If you're ambitious, you might consider tapping the track for a new hole and make it match you existing kayak holes instead. You have to either tap, since the supplied bolts thread into the track or replace them with bolts and nuts. Hope this helps! Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks to everyone who helped with the bulkhead question. It's a great resource here. As far as the re-entry and roll: Mike wrote: >Once your upside down, instead or pulling the skirt off of the cockpit >rim, stick your thumbs under the top of the tunnel bunjie/elastic and >slide out of the boat/skirt like you're taking a pair of jeans off. Get >your breath and wits back, grab the skirt tunnel, spread it open, slide >in and roll up. Works with a drysuit, I never tried it with a wetsuit >but I believe Molton did. Interesting idea. I use a neoprene skirt though so no dice. The idea of using a foam paddle float was also intriguing, but the reason I am drawn to the re-entry and roll is to get in the boat quickly and efficiently. The problem is the amount of water left in the boat which is obviously really affecting stability. Plus, if you are sitting in the big water and having to hand pump all the water out without a spray skirt on, recipe for a second dunking. One of the people I paddle with has a foot pump in his Romany which seems like a really nice little addition that I may add to my boat. So, we've talked about electric pumps, what about good, bulkhead mounted, foot pumps? -Patrick -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick Maun pmaun_at_bitstream.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
The only complaints I have heard about foot pumps are that, for some people, it is not possible to paddle while they are using their legs to pumpt water. It is a situation in which instead of having your feet on your solid foot pegs, and your knees in the knee braces with good boat control, you are loose sitting in the cockpit without being able to use your legs to lean and brace. While they seem an excellent option for rough water paddling, the reality is that they only have the advantage of being able to pump water with the cockpit closed in relatively calm water. Now, if your foot pump set up allows you to pump water moving your feet only, with your knees well supported on the knee braces, then that setup is a winner. - Julio > (snip) > So, we've talked about electric pumps, what about good, bulkhead mounted, > foot pumps? > > -Patrick > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Patrick Maun > pmaun_at_bitstream.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Wrong. If you use a proper forward stroke you should be constantly pushing with your feet. The peddle on the pump (Henderson Chimp) does not move enough to prevent bracing. And that foot pump beats the daylights out a hand pump in rough water. Julio MacWilliams wrote: > > The only complaints I have heard about foot pumps are that, for some > people, it is not possible to paddle while they are using their > legs to pumpt water. > > It is a situation in which instead of having your feet on your solid > foot pegs, and your knees in the knee braces with good boat control, > you are loose sitting in the cockpit without being able to use > your legs to lean and brace. > > While they seem an excellent option for rough water paddling, the > reality is that they only have the advantage of being able to > pump water with the cockpit closed in relatively calm water. > > Now, if your foot pump set up allows you to pump water moving > your feet only, with your knees well supported on the knee braces, > then that setup is a winner. > > - Julio > > > (snip) > > So, we've talked about electric pumps, what about good, bulkhead mounted, > > foot pumps? > > > > -Patrick > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Patrick Maun > > pmaun_at_bitstream.net > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** -- Mike Hughes Arch Curmudgeon "For those who fight for it life has a flavor the protected never know." USMC 65-68 mailto:mike.hughes_at_pressroom.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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