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From: JWare <jware_at_virtualm.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] Reenter - attach skirt and roll
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:49:53 -0500
> Greg wrote

> Perhaps with a lot of practice, it might work for you...  for me, it's
> not something I intend to incorporate into my bag of "save my tail"
> techniques unless someone can share the secret in getting the spray
> skirt back on before I require air.

I guess I'd have to agree with this not being high on my list of options.
I've been practicing the reenter/attach skirt/roll up in the pool lately
(including last night) and while I have the maneuver down in a nice warm,
clear pool (goggles and nose clip too) it seems like tossing in cold or dark
water, waves and wind might greatly reduce the success rate.

Although it is nice when you roll up all sealed up, the idea of managing to
keep in close contact with your paddle and attaching your your skirt while
you feel the "lack of air clock" ticking make this maneuver a little
questionable.

I tried a variation where I reentered, rolled up, and caught my wits and
breath, then capsized and while upside down, but still in the cockpit I
reattached the skirt. While this bought more time to attach the skirt I'm
not so sure I'd want to intentionally go back over in conditions. It also
seemed like the second time around I came up with a little more water under
that nicely sealed skirt.

jw
-- 
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From: John C. Winskill <johncw_at_narrows.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Reenter - attach skirt and roll
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:07:52 -0800
JWare wrote:
JW, this is exactly how you do it.
John Winskill

> 
> > Greg wrote
> 
> > Perhaps with a lot of practice, it might work for you...  for me, it's
> > not something I intend to incorporate into my bag of "save my tail"
> > techniques unless someone can share the secret in getting the spray
> > skirt back on before I require air.
> 
> I guess I'd have to agree with this not being high on my list of options.
> I've been practicing the reenter/attach skirt/roll up in the pool lately
> (including last night) and while I have the maneuver down in a nice warm,
> clear pool (goggles and nose clip too) it seems like tossing in cold or dark
> water, waves and wind might greatly reduce the success rate.
> 
> Although it is nice when you roll up all sealed up, the idea of managing to
> keep in close contact with your paddle and attaching your your skirt while
> you feel the "lack of air clock" ticking make this maneuver a little
> questionable.
> 
> I tried a variation where I reentered, rolled up, and caught my wits and
> breath, then capsized and while upside down, but still in the cockpit I
> reattached the skirt. While this bought more time to attach the skirt I'm
> not so sure I'd want to intentionally go back over in conditions. It also
> seemed like the second time around I came up with a little more water under
> that nicely sealed skirt.
> 
> jw
> --
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From: Michael Daly <mikedaly_at_interlog.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Reenter - attach skirt and roll
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:10:13 -0500
JWare wrote:

> > Greg wrote
>
> > Perhaps with a lot of practice, it might work for you...  for me, it's
> > not something I intend to incorporate into my bag of "save my tail"
> > techniques unless someone can share the secret in getting the spray
> > skirt back on before I require air.
>
> I guess I'd have to agree with this not being high on my list of options.
> I've been practicing the reenter/attach skirt/roll up in the pool lately
> (including last night) and while I have the maneuver down in a nice warm,
> clear pool (goggles and nose clip too) it seems like tossing in cold or dark
> water, waves and wind might greatly reduce the success rate.
>
> Although it is nice when you roll up all sealed up, the idea of managing to
> keep in close contact with your paddle and attaching your your skirt while
> you feel the "lack of air clock" ticking make this maneuver a little
> questionable.

One thing I thought of but haven't tested yet is to tuck your head into the kayak
while underwater so you can breath while attaching the back of the skirt.  Then
you only have to drop your head under water long enough to finish the skirt
attachment.   I like a tight skirt so it takes a while to attach (I don't want to
imagine this with my WW skirt - it'd take forever underwater).  You need to
be fairly flexible to bend at the waist enough to breath in the hull - time to
get to speed on your stretching exercises!   A paddle leash (attaching the
paddle to the boat, not your wrist) would allow you to use both hands for the
skirt attachment.

I'll try it in the pool tomorrow night and get back to the list with results.

Mike



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From: kayakbound <kayakbound_at_worldnet.att.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Reenter - attach skirt and roll
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:39:21 -0600
Another concern with this maneuver -- at least for me -- is something I
hadn't noticed with my kayak [Current Designs Solstice ST] until it was too
late.  The back side of the coaming on this boat is so close to the deck
there's not enough clearance to slip the skirt's bungi knot into the space
underneath.  An absolutely horrendous design that makes getting the skirt on
when you're upright and in calm water a royal pain ...  Can't imagine what
it would be like submerged, upside down and in rough water!  But I guess
I'll give it a shot some day!!!  Hard to believe, though, that this
condition would exist on a $2,400 "state-of-the-art" kayak [at least in my
mind].  And had I noticed this obvious design flaw prior to buying, I'd be
the proud owner of a Romany.  So be it ...

Anyone else having to tangle with such a problem?

Jim Tynan
Pike Road AL
http://home.att.net/~kayakbound

"It takes two to speak the truth: one to speak, and another to hear."
                                                               ~ Henry David
Thoreau (1817-1862)

-----Original Message-----
From: John C. Winskill <johncw_at_narrows.com>
To: JWare <jware_at_virtualm.com>
Cc: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net>
Date: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Reenter - attach skirt and roll


>> I guess I'd have to agree with this not being high on my list of options.
>> I've been practicing the reenter/attach skirt/roll up in the pool lately
>> (including last night) and while I have the maneuver down in a nice warm,
>> clear pool (goggles and nose clip too) it seems like tossing in cold or
dark
>> water, waves and wind might greatly reduce the success rate.


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From: Dan Hagen <dan_at_hagen.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Reenter - attach skirt and roll
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:57:36 -0800
kayakbound (Jim Tynan) wrote:
> 
> Another concern with this maneuver -- at least for me -- is something I
> hadn't noticed with my kayak [Current Designs Solstice ST] until it was too
> late.  The back side of the coaming on this boat is so close to the deck
> there's not enough clearance to slip the skirt's bungi knot into the space
> underneath.  An absolutely horrendous design ...

Jim, you might want to shop around for a new spray skirt. Some spray
skirts have smaller bungie knots than others, some spray skirts have a
bungie knot in some location other than the rear, and some don't have a
bungie knot at all.  The spray skirt that I am now using for sea
kayaking doesn't have a bungie knot in the rear. (It has a small knot
near the front just off to the side.) And my whitewater skirt doesn't
have any bungie knots. In short, if you look around I suspect that you
can find a skirt that fits your Solstice.

Dan Hagen
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From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Reenter - attach skirt and roll
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:56:16 -0800
kayakbound wrote:
> 
> Another concern with this maneuver -- at least for me -- is something I
> hadn't noticed with my kayak [Current Designs Solstice ST] until it was too
> late.  The back side of the coaming on this boat is so close to the deck
> there's not enough clearance to slip the skirt's bungi knot into the space
> underneath. [snip]

> Anyone else having to tangle with such a problem?

Yup.  On two of my sprayskirts (I have three), I have cut the bungee to the
correct length, allowing an overlap of about an inch.  Those plastic
wrap-n-tie things (cable wraps?) which are often found holding wires to
some attachment point inside my computer come in sturdy versions, and I
have secured the overlapped ends of the bungee with two cable wraps.

This sounds like it would not be secure, and I resisted it until I had two
years and many miles on a similar system below decks used to hold knee
tubes in place.  So far, I have two seasons on one bungee, and one season
on the other one.  Both are as strong as the day I assembled the closure.

The third sprayskirt?  It has one of those cheesy knots!

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR

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From: Dan Hagen <dan_at_hagen.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Reenter - attach skirt and roll
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:06:15 -0800
Dave Kruger wrote (regarding spray skirt knots):
> 
> ...I have cut the bungee to the correct length, allowing an 
> overlap of about an inch.  ...  I have secured the overlapped 
> ends of the bungee with two cable wraps.

Great idea, Dave! I think that I will try this on my one remaining spray
skirt with a rear knot, which I am about to sell to a guy who recently
bought my Solstice. This customization should allow me to charge a
premium price. :-)  BTW, I think that your approach is actually more
secure than a knot, which can come loose over time.

Dan Hagen
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From: Steve Jernigan <jernigan_at_chester.uccs.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Reenter - attach skirt and roll
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:40:39 -0700
At 04:56 PM 2/24/99 -0800, Dave Kruger wrote:
>kayakbound wrote:
>> The back side of the coaming on this boat is so close to the deck
>> there's not enough clearance to slip the skirt's bungi knot into the space
>> underneath. [snip]
>
>> Anyone else having to tangle with such a problem?
>
>Yup.  On two of my sprayskirts (I have three), I have cut the bungee to the
>correct length, allowing an overlap of about an inch.  Those plastic
>wrap-n-tie things (cable wraps?)

(cable-tie or zip-tie, a truly great invention! S.) 

>which are often found holding wires to
>some attachment point inside my computer come in sturdy versions, and I
>have secured the overlapped ends of the bungee with two cable wraps.

Hi all!
Another trick you might try is to use a length of 18 or 20 gauge stainless
steel wire. Close wrap the wire 3 or 4 times around the overlapped bungee
ends, twist the wire ends together a time or two like a garbage bag tie,
and then use a pair of pliers to tighten the twist until the ss wire is
compressing the bungees to about 2/3 of their original diameter. Trim the
wire twist, bend it flat and wrap the joint with vinyl electrical tape (or
use heat-shrink tubing if you have any). I've used this technique to
connect bungees for tie-downs, boat and snowmachine covers, and various
other projects with good results.
ByeBye!  Steve J.

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From: Richard Culpeper <culpeper_at_geocities.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Reenter - attach skirt and roll
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:57:41 -0500
But it sometimes takes me a fair while to get my skirt on even when above
water, particularly when the rubber rand is cold and I am wearing big
gasketed gloves.  More power to those who can put it on underwater.  My hat
(or skirt) goes off to you.

Cheers,
Richard
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From: Sisler, Clyde <Clyde.Sisler_at_wang.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Reenter - attach skirt and roll
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:35:50 -0500
One thing I thought of but haven't tested yet is to tuck your head into the
kayak
while underwater so you can breath while attaching the back of the skirt.  
---------
Breathing tubes have been mentioned before.  There's one at
http://www.radicalgear.com/.  I don't think I'd react very well if some
water happened to come down the tube during the inhale process.

I, of course, have nothing to do with these guys.
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From: <volinjo_at_juno.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Reenter - attach skirt and roll
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:14:50 -0500
I'm interested in the "similar systembelow decks to hold knee tubes." 
Could you please elaborate?  We've recently installe some bungie cords
under the deck of my kayak to store some items (like the pump, for one)
that I didn't want on the deck.  Didn't go for knee tubes, partly because
installing them sounded like a lot of work.  But I'd be interested to
know about your system.

On Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:56:16 -0800 Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com>
writes:
>kayakbound wrote:
>> 
>> Another concern with this maneuver -- at least for me -- is 
>something I
>> hadn't noticed with my kayak [Current Designs Solstice ST] until it 
>was too
>> late.  The back side of the coaming on this boat is so close to the 
>deck
>> there's not enough clearance to slip the skirt's bungi knot into the 
>space
>> underneath. [snip]
>
>> Anyone else having to tangle with such a problem?
>
>Yup.  On two of my sprayskirts (I have three), I have cut the bungee 
>to the
>correct length, allowing an overlap of about an inch.  Those plastic
>wrap-n-tie things (cable wraps?) which are often found holding wires 
>to
>some attachment point inside my computer come in sturdy versions, and 
>I
>have secured the overlapped ends of the bungee with two cable wraps.
>
>This sounds like it would not be secure, and I resisted it until I had 
>two
>years and many miles on a similar system below decks used to hold knee
>tubes in place.  So far, I have two seasons on one bungee, and one 
>season
>on the other one.  Both are as strong as the day I assembled the 
>closure.
>
>The third sprayskirt?  It has one of those cheesy knots!
>
>-- 
>Dave Kruger
>Astoria, OR
>
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From: John Winters <735769_at_ican.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Reenter - attach skirt and roll
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 06:24:10 -0500
Richard wrote;




>But it sometimes takes me a fair while to get my skirt on even when above
>water, particularly when the rubber rand is cold and I am wearing big
>gasketed gloves.  More power to those who can put it on underwater.  My
hat
>(or skirt) goes off to you.

Put your skirt back on. This is a family mailing list.

Cheers,
John Winters
Redwing Designs
Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft
http://home.ican.net/~735769/

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From: Larry Mills <millsl_at_purchase.edu>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Reenter - attach skirt and roll
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:19:32 -0000
I just realized he meant his spray skirt.

At first, it reminded me of a movie I saw once when I was in
the army.

Larry Mills
Department of Redundancy Department

-----Original Message-----
From:	John Winters [SMTP:735769_at_ican.net]
Sent:	Thursday, February 25, 1999 11:24 AM
To:	paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net
Subject:	Re: [Paddlewise] Reenter -  attach skirt and roll

Richard wrote;




>But it sometimes takes me a fair while to get my skirt on even when above
>water, particularly when the rubber rand is cold and I am wearing big
>gasketed gloves.  More power to those who can put it on underwater.  My
hat
>(or skirt) goes off to you.

Put your skirt back on. This is a family mailing list.

Cheers,
John Winters
Redwing Designs
Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft
http://home.ican.net/~735769/

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From: Bob Denton <BDenton_at_aquagulf.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Reenter - attach skirt and roll
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:14:32 -0500
Many skirts have NO bungee knot. Buy one that is designed for the specific
size cockpit. I use Palm skirts from the UK.

cya
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From: <HTERVORT_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Reenter - attach skirt and roll
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:12:22 EST
<Jim Tynan wrote about problems getting his skirt bunji knot under the combing
of his boat.  Dave Kruger offered good advice on customizing the cord.>

I like to keep the bunji cord on my skirts long enough to allow adjustment
when using the skirt with other boats or with other paddlers.  This is the
main reason for having this type of skirt design.

To help eliminate the problem of the knot, try undoing the knot, then slipping
the ends of the cord through a short piece of vinyl or rubber tubing, about 2
inches long and just large enough in diameter to be stretched into a flattened
oval by the cord.  Tie a new knot in the cords at the other <stern> end of the
tubing.  The tubing should easily slip under your combing and hold the knot
beyond the edge of the flange.  

Harold
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From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Reenter - attach skirt and roll
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 17:04:53 -0800
HTERVORT_at_aol.com wrote:

> I like to keep the bunji cord on my skirts long enough to allow adjustment
> when using the skirt with other boats or with other paddlers.  This is the
> main reason for having this type of skirt design.
> 
> To help eliminate the problem of the knot, try undoing the knot, then slipping
> the ends of the cord through a short piece of vinyl or rubber tubing, about 2
> inches long and just large enough in diameter to be stretched into a flattened
> oval by the cord.  Tie a new knot in the cords at the other <stern> end of the
> tubing.  The tubing should easily slip under your combing and hold the knot
> beyond the edge of the flange.

Wow.  This is inspired, Harold -- what sort of tubing do you use? 
POlyethylene -- what we used to call Tygon?

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR

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From: <HTERVORT_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Reenter - attach skirt and roll
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:55:19 EST
Dave,

Inspired, perhaps.  But I can't take credit for it.

Polyethylene (Tygon) in a fairly thick wall works better than anything else
I've found.  But anything that will assume the shape of the parallel cords and
also stay sufficiently rigid withour breaking would work OK.

Harold
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