Spent an hour or so last night _at_ http://www.nps.gov/prwi/readutm.htm trying to make sense of this UTM stuff. My BBA charts are 1:94,000 but some of my others are 1:40,000. No UTM grids on any of them. The only grids I have are every 5 lat/lon minutes. Tried to supplement the tutorial with some other reading and checked out Fundamentals of Kayak Navigation by David Burch and Be Expert With Map & Compass by Bjorn Kjellstrom and neither has any reference to UTM. MapTech, my electronic charting software doesn't mention it either. My spelling verifier does like UTM however???? I think whomever that evil person was who mentioned UTM to Bob Denton, also mentioned something about a grid template or something. Am I missing a piece of hardware somewhere or just a few brain cells? The examples end up with coordinates from 4-10 digits in length, depending on desired accuracy. That's some pretty big numbers and sounds like it would take just as long or longer to come up with and enter them into a GPS as lat/lon . (I really haven't entered anything yet). What makes UTM better/easier or whatever than lat/lon or is it just another technothingee? Clyde Sisler http://csisler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Sisler, Clyde wrote: > > Spent an hour or so last night _at_ http://www.nps.gov/prwi/readutm.htm trying > to make sense of this UTM stuff. > > My BBA charts are 1:94,000 but some of my others are 1:40,000. No UTM grids > on any of them. The only grids I have are every 5 lat/lon minutes. > > Tried to supplement the tutorial with some other reading and checked out > Fundamentals of Kayak Navigation by David Burch and Be Expert With Map & > Compass by Bjorn Kjellstrom and neither has any reference to UTM. MapTech, > my electronic charting software doesn't mention it either. My spelling > verifier does like UTM however???? > > I think whomever that evil person was who mentioned UTM to Bob Denton, also > mentioned something about a grid template or something. Am I missing a > piece of hardware somewhere or just a few brain cells? > > The examples end up with coordinates from 4-10 digits in length, depending > on desired accuracy. That's some pretty big numbers and sounds like it > would take just as long or longer to come up with and enter them into a GPS > as lat/lon . (I really haven't entered anything yet). > > What makes UTM better/easier or whatever than lat/lon or is it just another > technothingee? I thought that both Burch and Bjorn did refer to UTMs but your search is obviously right. I first heard of them about 25-30 years ago when the hiking map world was abuzz with UTMs as being more accurate. I remembered sweating out figuring them out at the time. The advantage of the Universal Transverse Mercator is/was a significant reduction in the distortion of placing a globe on to a flat surface of maps; it is an international standard and in kilometer increments, if I recall correctly. For awhile back then, people started playing games of identifying places by UTMs instead of longitude and latitude. I even knew my street location by both UTM grid and Longitude/Latitude but I have since forgotten. Besides it confused visitors to tell them to go to such and such UTM grid or x longitude and y latitude. Better to just say 70th Street just west of Central Park. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Sisler, Clyde wrote: > > Spent an hour or so last night _at_ http://www.nps.gov/prwi/readutm.htm trying > to make sense of this UTM stuff. > > My BBA charts are 1:94,000 but some of my others are 1:40,000. No UTM grids > on any of them. Oh I forgot, USGS topo maps definitely show the hash marks for UTM. They are faint blue lines in the margins. I don't recall if marine charts do and no use pulling one out as I cut off all marginal notes to reduce their size. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>Oh I forgot, USGS topo maps definitely show the hash marks for UTM. >They are faint blue lines in the margins. I don't recall if marine >charts do and no use pulling one out as I cut off all marginal notes to >reduce their size. I just checked one for Little Egg Harbor, cover published 1994 1:40,000 scale. No UTM grid markers. Has the NJ Plane Coordinate Grid at 10,000 foot intervals. All scale references are in feet, miles and nm. NO metric scales at all. There are two scales for lat/lon conversion which you'd probably have to use dividers with.... I also looked at the Magellan GPS Topo-Guide I have. It has transparent grids for 1:24k, 1:25K & 1:63K for the usual land-based topo sheets. Nothing for 1:40K So I guess, after all the foofarraw, that UTM isn't the best choice for seagoing kayakers....... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Joe Pylka wrote: > I also looked at the Magellan GPS Topo-Guide I have. It has transparent > grids for 1:24k, 1:25K & 1:63K for the usual land-based topo sheets. > Nothing for 1:40K Joe, I have made up a trans grid for 1:40000 which also includes a compass rosette- found it easy to plot bearing as well as distance(subdivided a section to 1/10 nautical mile). It was based and verified on the egg harbor/ great bay charts. If you (or anybody else) have a use for a copy, send me your address and I would be happy to send it. Alas, I did it in a cad program to have strict dimensional control and would probably go through change if I translated it to bitmap for electronic transfer. I print it on laser mylar. I had thought that the UTM coordinate system were for areas where nautical charts were not available and one must rely on a terra based map. -- Gabriel L Romeu http://studiofurniture.com -------> furniture http://users.aol.com/romeugp ---> paintings, prints, photos + stuff http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR --> a daily journal of observations *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I've sent Joe a .jpg with the markings on a Florida chart. As for the marine charts, After a visit to West Marine (less then a mile from my office) I didn't discover any UTM markings on marine charts..probably because they are designed for boats moving faster and longer distances and don't require the ease of accuracy that UTM provides. cu -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net] On Behalf Of Joe Pylka Sent: Thursday, April 08, 1999 11:23 AM To: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com; 'Paddlewise' Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] More Re: UTM >Oh I forgot, USGS topo maps definitely show the hash marks for UTM. >They are faint blue lines in the margins. I don't recall if marine >charts do and no use pulling one out as I cut off all marginal notes to >reduce their size. I just checked one for Little Egg Harbor, cover published 1994 1:40,000 scale. No UTM grid markers. Has the NJ Plane Coordinate Grid at 10,000 foot intervals. All scale references are in feet, miles and nm. NO metric scales at all. There are two scales for lat/lon conversion which you'd probably have to use dividers with.... I also looked at the Magellan GPS Topo-Guide I have. It has transparent grids for 1:24k, 1:25K & 1:63K for the usual land-based topo sheets. Nothing for 1:40K So I guess, after all the foofarraw, that UTM isn't the best choice for seagoing kayakers....... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I believe John from Map Tools may be persuaded to make up a 1:40,000 guide for marine charts but that still leaves the problem of accurately placing a 1000 meter grid on the maps. It may be feasible to take and convert the lat/lon to UTM and use that as the starting point. cu -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net] On Behalf Of Gabriel L Romeu Sent: Thursday, April 08, 1999 12:10 PM To: Joe Pylka Cc: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com; 'Paddlewise' Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] More Re: UTM Joe Pylka wrote: > I also looked at the Magellan GPS Topo-Guide I have. It has transparent > grids for 1:24k, 1:25K & 1:63K for the usual land-based topo sheets. > Nothing for 1:40K Joe, I have made up a trans grid for 1:40000 which also includes a compass rosette- found it easy to plot bearing as well as distance(subdivided a section to 1/10 nautical mile). It was based and verified on the egg harbor/ great bay charts. If you (or anybody else) have a use for a copy, send me your address and I would be happy to send it. Alas, I did it in a cad program to have strict dimensional control and would probably go through change if I translated it to bitmap for electronic transfer. I print it on laser mylar. I had thought that the UTM coordinate system were for areas where nautical charts were not available and one must rely on a terra based map. -- Gabriel L Romeu http://studiofurniture.com -------> furniture http://users.aol.com/romeugp ---> paintings, prints, photos + stuff http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR --> a daily journal of observations *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> I believe John from Map Tools may be persuaded to make up a 1:40,000 guide > for marine charts but that still leaves the problem of > accurately placing a > 1000 meter grid on the maps. It may be feasible to take and convert the > lat/lon to UTM and use that as the starting point. If it is a Garmin GPS, you should be able to enter the coordinates in lat/log decimal, lat/log in degrees minutes seconds or UTM. Once you've input it off a chart you can then just switch the GPS position format to whatever you prefer. With only a 100 meter accuracy (or 1-5 meters with DGPS) I doubt I'll notice the difference. Woody *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
From: Bob >I've sent Joe a .jpg with the markings on a Florida chart. As for the >marine charts, After a visit to West Marine (less then a mile from my >office) I didn't discover any UTM markings on marine charts..probably >because they are designed for boats moving faster and longer distances and >don't require the ease of accuracy that UTM provides. Most (all) of my paddling is in freshwater or saltmarsh type stuff. I've come to use the UTM system routinely over the past few years. I hadn't realized that the NOAA charts didn't show this. Fortunately, there are USGS topos covering the areas I'm most interested in. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
The issue really is finding your position on a map from the GPS coordinates. It may not be too much of an issue when you are in an area with lots of land marks but when you are surrounded by mangroves and it's the islands just blend into one another, the UTM system is excellent. cya *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> The issue really is finding your position on a map from the GPS > coordinates. > It may not be too much of an issue when you are in an area with > lots of land > marks but when you are surrounded by mangroves and it's the islands just > blend into one another, the UTM system is excellent. Doh! I thought the GPS could display position in all those formats also. Mine is still at Garmin being upgraded, or I'd probably would have known that. Woody *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Sure was a nice afternoon, today. Temperatures were over 70, blue sky, but a light southeast breeze and mare's tails promised deteriorating weather later. Still, when I got out of work, I knew that this was the day that I'd been waiting for since the end of October. Until Daylight Savings Time commenced last weekend, there really hasn't been enough time between when I get out of work and sunset for the routine after-work paddles that I've come to enjoy. While I've been out in the kayak every month over the winter, it's been on the weekends. I drove home, and asked my daughter if she'd like to go out kayaking with me. Whine, no, I'm tired, whine, I don't want to, whine, I wanna stay on-line. Kid, you snooze, you lose, on a day like today. There were other places besides Lake Hudson that I could have gone to for the routine after-work paddle -- I'll see a lot of it's no-wake surface this summer, once the jet skis are out on the other lakes -- but it had been ten days since I'd been there. This time of year, ten days means a lot. Fortunately, it doesn't take much to get ready to go on these after work paddles, and after it warms up a bit more it will take even less. In only a couple minutes, I was backing the van up to the garage door where the Heron sat waiting on the trailer, ready to go; fifteen minutes later, I was dropping it in the water. It was close to a dead calm; just a hint of a breeze. Out on the water, it's peaceful. The little point across from the put in is one of the more favored nesting sites for Canada geese, and they were squawking. There probably were half a dozen nesters there, but I didn't go around the far side of the point to check. As I said, a lot can happen in ten days this time of year. Lake Hudson is an artificial lake, and since there are no pike in it, it's managed by the DNR for trophy muskie fishing. Every year about this time the DNR fish hatchery comes out and nets muskies to strip them of milt and roe for the fish hatchery, and I've seen them net fish close to five feet -- and a five-foot muskie is sneaking up on being a fishy torpedo. They don't do this until the water temperature is in the mid forties, but it must be that warm, since the DNR has their nets out this week. Even though the air temp is in the seventies and the water is severly flat, since I'm alone I'm pretty much going to sneak along the shoreline. Still, it's surprising that the water is that warm, considering that the last time I was out on this lake, ten days ago, there was still ice in some of the bays, and there were huge rafts of migrating geese and ducks. The migration seems to have moved on, now; those huge rafts of birds that we usually only see during migration are gone. There are still plenty of birds left, though -- the nonmigratory geese that will be around all summer, some mallards, some laggard migratory birds. Leaf-out is still a month off, but there are buds on a few of the trees, and the grass has greened up a little since the last time I've been out. Still, the woods are stark and transparent; it's a good time to see what's back in them. It doesn't take much to decide to head down to the west end of the lake, to check out another place popular with geese for nesting that I know of. It's about a half hour paddle out there, and I take my time, just enjoying the warmth of the afternoon, and the hint of "lake smell". I'm not making real good time -- I'll go faster later in the year -- but I don't have to keep up with anyone for once, and can go my own speed. The little, nearly enclosed bay I'm heading for has no name on the map, but I call it "Goose Bay", and it's one of my favorite places to just be. I cut through the narrow entrance to the bay as quietly as I can, since I can see geese nesting to either side of the channel. Past the narrows at the head of the bay, I look around. I don't think the bay is as big as ten acres, but I count fifteen nesting geese around the shore and could have missed some in the rush. The last time I was out here, nesting really hadn't begun, although the geese were getting, well, goosy about it, so it must have started not long afterward. It won't be long before there'll be lots of fuzzy little goslings around the lake. Normally, I'd explore around the shoreline a bit, but I don't want to bother the mama geese, so just stay content to float around in the middle of the bay. There are about a half a dozen bass that are persistantly jumping, feeding on bugs or something, I guess, or just enjoying the warm spring weather, and it's hardly ever a few seconds between splashes. Twice, I feel a little "thump" and a swirling up around the bow; as I've been drifting along, I've rammed carp that are sunning themselves. Several times the shadow of the boat scares up swirls in the water -- more carp. I can't stay out on the bay long; the wife will be wanting to deal with supper. All too soon I'm heading back down the lake toward the boat ramp. Back out in the main lake, I count a flock of eight turkey vultures working a small thermal. The familiar angular bent-neck shape of a blue heron glides across the shoreline, then extends legs for a touchdown -- the first I've seen this year. Not far from the boat launch, I see a small boat up along the shore. I get a bit closer, and can see two boats -- and they're both kayaks. A little closer, and suspicions are confirmed -- it's the only other two sea kayaks in the county, that I know of, besides mine. Though I paddle with the couple that owns them on occasion, we haven't seen each other since last fall sometime, and that was at a restaurant, so we have to stop, shoot the bull for a moment, catch up on the gossip. I tell them that the DNR will be out Saturday morning, stripping muskies, and they might be interested in checking that out. I've seen it before, and while the weather forecast for Saturday morning isn't as promising, I may be there too. They're just getting going, and I have to be getting home, so we soon part. It's been a good trip, for a "routine after-work paddle". For the next several months, I'll try to be out at least a couple weeknights each week, weather and schedule permitting. A lot of those trips will be right here, on the old familiar lake -- but there's almost always something new to see each trip, something new to look forward to. -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Does anybody know anything about or have any experience with Easyrider kayaks? They appear to have some good ideas, but there ads aren't terribly confidence producing, and I don't recall much discussion here or elsewhere about them. -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Wes, I've had an Easy Rider double (the 22'6" Eskimoe) for about six years. Frankly, I've abused it (an Arctic trip) and it's still going strong, impressive even considering we got a custom extra strength Kevlar lay-up. It's got amazing cargo capacity and I'ridden through Artic gales with a great sense of security (helped by having a skilled paddler in the front cockpit.) I suspect it's not as fast as other, narrower doubles. Peter also makes an incredible range of sails and outriggers if you like that sort of thing ( I haven't used them). I'd say one of the strong points is the Velcro quick-connects behind both cockpits which are used for the outriggers if you're using them and the paddlefloat rescue if you're not. I've upgraded these Velcro straps to thicker versions for a more secure grip and "borrowed" the concept for my non-Easy Rider single kayak. One weak point is the rudder system. Don't know if Peter's still using it, but our boat came with a sort of flexible fiibreglass ! "Y" foot peg system which eventually cracks off. Perhaps ask him to omit the pedals and install your own using the rails and alumium pegs available on the aftermarket. With any double, and especially with high volume units like the Eskimoe, you should really consider using sea-socks if there's a chance of capsize. Try it in a pool sometime - you'll be amazed and appalled by how much water the thing takes on, and how low in the water it floats - in even small seas it would reswamp with every wave. That said, I'm happy with my Eskimoe, even though it doesn't do anything much more than gentle weekend trips with my wife and I these days. Good luck and happy paddling. >From: Wes Boyd <boydwe_at_dmci.net> >To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subject: [Paddlewise] Easyrider kayaks >Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 20:22:35 > >Does anybody know anything about or have any experience with Easyrider >kayaks? They appear to have some good ideas, but there ads aren't terribly >confidence producing, and I don't recall much discussion here or elsewhere >about them. > >-- Wes > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** > N49°16' W123°08' ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
- From: Robert Woodard >> >With only a 100 meter accuracy (or 1-5 meters with DGPS) I doubt I'll notice >the difference. > Actually that's worst case conditions. I've never gotten a reported SA that far off. More often plus or minus 100 ft off true position. Not unusual to get +- 30 ft. I figure I'm happy if the gps position is close enough I can throw a rock at the true position. It's still less than the pencil mark width I'd mark the map with. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
It was YOU Clyde!! I thought you were a UTM expert!? I have privately e-mailed you with the .pdf file to print a grid on acetate which will work with any 24,000 USGS chart. You do have to draw your own grid on the topos connecting the blue ticks. Then it's just a question of placing the template over the appropriate grid square, and plotting the last significant digit and bingo! I found I can easily be accurate to 10 meters, both reading a position on the map from GPS UTM coordinates and creating a way point from a position on the map. cu -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net] On Behalf Of Sisler, Clyde Sent: Thursday, April 08, 1999 9:04 AM To: 'Paddlewise' Subject: [Paddlewise] UTM Spent an hour or so last night _at_ http://www.nps.gov/prwi/readutm.htm trying to make sense of this UTM stuff. My BBA charts are 1:94,000 but some of my others are 1:40,000. No UTM grids on any of them. The only grids I have are every 5 lat/lon minutes. Tried to supplement the tutorial with some other reading and checked out Fundamentals of Kayak Navigation by David Burch and Be Expert With Map & Compass by Bjorn Kjellstrom and neither has any reference to UTM. MapTech, my electronic charting software doesn't mention it either. My spelling verifier does like UTM however???? I think whomever that evil person was who mentioned UTM to Bob Denton, also mentioned something about a grid template or something. Am I missing a piece of hardware somewhere or just a few brain cells? The examples end up with coordinates from 4-10 digits in length, depending on desired accuracy. That's some pretty big numbers and sounds like it would take just as long or longer to come up with and enter them into a GPS as lat/lon . (I really haven't entered anything yet). What makes UTM better/easier or whatever than lat/lon or is it just another technothingee? Clyde Sisler http://csisler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks for the link <http://www.nps.gov/prwi/readutm.htm>. That Mercator thing is very well explained. It is not a question of which is better, but which is more useful for different purposes. For land, where measurements require precision of less that 1/4 inch, UTM was made to reduce spherical distorsion in small areas and make plotting easier. That way, if two neighbors are fighting for a centimeter of land, the boundaries can be defined with great precision. At sea, 1 second of latitude is 1/60 of a nautical mile. That is 30 meters, or the length of a medium size recreational sailboat. See? The precision of the latitude/longitude system is already more than what most mariners need. In addition, mariners are more comfortable using knots for speed, and nautical miles for distance, all of which refer to the length of 1 minute of latitude. So, why degrees instead of meters? The strongest argument is probably celestial navigation. With celestial navigation, every measurement of a celestial body's height in degrees is used to solve a triangle on the earth surface using trigonometric formulas. Now that we have GPS's, we could change all systems to a unique one based in meters. But then, your life would depend on the batteries of an electronic gadget, and we would have to redo years of work of coastal survey. It is probably easier and safer to stay with our current system, which is known to work for all mariners. In summary, precision measurements on land benefit from the mercator system, and navigation at sea benefits from the degree system. Good GPS's carry both systems. Happy paddling, - Julio *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, Julio MacWilliams wrote: [snip] > > In summary, precision measurements on land benefit from the > mercator system, and navigation at sea benefits from the degree system. > > Good GPS's carry both systems. > > Happy paddling, > > - Julio > ironically, this is on cable tv tonight: HIST - MAP MAKING - Satellites and the global-positioning system spark a revolution in cartography.(CC)(TVG) #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com----http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark ---- # mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index to club websites i administer] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page -- Fortune: Nothing pains some people more than having to think. --Martin Luther King, Jr. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Some good analyses of the benefits of UTM were already posted, but I'll add that on land the easy transition from location to distance makes UTM particularly useful. With degrees of longitude, you've gotta translate distances in your head; with UTM, the numbers are the same kind of distances you use commonly (i.e. meters). After a while, you start seeing the distances on the map, if it is gridded for UTM, like Canadian maps are. I'm curious though. Someone posted an excellent description of why lat/long predominates in marine navigation. What about aviation? Didn't they essentially switch to UTM? -- Rob Gendreau Oakland, California gendreau_at_ccnet.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I haven't flown for a while, but at the speeds and distances one travels in an aircraft, the accuracy presented by lat/lon is fine and I believe there are cartographic reasons for preferring lat/long over UTM for VFR sectionals. There are also other navaids which are not topographically based *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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