Hi everyone, We have a simple question: Can anyone convince us that buying a foldable double instead of a hardshell is a stupid and crazy idea? Let us explain: We are new to kayaking and Paddlewise and considering to buy a kayak somewhere end of this year. The only experience in kayaking is limited to a couple of intructions at a local kayak club. When asking around to some " more experienced" kayakers, they all told us about their favourite hardshell brands and their moste loved types. At an outdoor exibition we saw a presentation of Klepper and fell in love immediately. So we started to look around more carefully at the internet and we read a couple of "standard books" on seakayaking and kayaking in general. To cut a long story short, our conclusion (for the moment) is: We want a foldable because its larger safety margin and foldability. We consider Feathercraft/Klepper/Nautiraid doubles. Among these the Klepper expedition (red colour) is the favourite. This conclusion when presented at the kayak club gave rise to quite some resistance. Foldables were "not done". When we asked: "Could you give any logical reason why a foldable is a bad idea?" The debate focussed on, stability, preformance, vurnerability to rocks, maintenance, folding/unfolding time etc. But most of our kayaking friends had no experience at all with foldables. We are curious to learn from people that have experience with both foldables and hardshells. Could any of them please tell us why we are so wrong? Anyone of you is also free to explain why buying a foldable is the smartest thing to do! Thanks in Advance, Diana and Nico-Dirk van Loo N.D. van Loo, Msc Dept. Cell Biology Medical Faculty Erasmus University Rotterdam P.O. 1738 3000 DR Rotterdam The Netherlands TEL +31 10 4087165 FAX +31 10 4089468 VANLOO_at_CH1.FGG.EUR.NL *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 02:31 PM 4/9/99 MET-1MST, you wrote: >Hi everyone, > >We have a simple question: Can anyone convince us that buying a >foldable double instead of a hardshell is a stupid and crazy idea? > You're going to get a long and detailed reply from Ralph, who is eventually going to talk me into a foldable if I don't watch out -- but essentially, my response would be, if that's what you want, fine. Don't let others define it. Now, for me, I wouldn't touch a double with a three metre pole . . . -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Mr. Diaz, would you please come to the podium. Someone has a question or two for you. 8-) He will help you out....... Dan McCarty *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Hmmm, I think we need to get these friends of yours into a room and kick the snot out of them. :-) About the only reason I could think of to not buy a foldable (assuming storage is not a problem) is the initial cost. Otherwise, in all respects, a foldable is just as respectable a boat as the best hardshell. There are some intangible benefits as well. People are always commenting on my Feathercraft. People watch you put it together and ask questions. People will paddle over to you and ask about the boat and say how great it looks. Of course, if you hate to have people talk to you, then that would be another reason not but one. :-) N.D. VAN LOO wrote: ... snipped ... > This conclusion when presented at the kayak club gave rise to quite > some resistance. Foldables were "not done". *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
N.D. VAN LOO wrote: > We have a simple question: Can anyone convince us that buying a > foldable double instead of a hardshell is a stupid and crazy idea? No. There are advantages and disadvantages to both. I paddle both hardshells (I own 3 singles) and a folding double (Folbot) -- probably nowadays about equal time, but used to be almost exclusively hardshell. Ralph Diaz will preside as the priest of folders, so I'll just compare my experience. YMMV Folding doubles are: slower, roomier, more difficult to pack, more stable, require more maintenance, and are generally more costly. My Folbot Greenland II is all of the above except the last, I like hardshells for ease of maintenance, their speed, and their sleekness. I like my folder for its comfort, its HUGE cargo space, and the laid-back feeling of its enormous cockpit. I feel a little nervous when it works its way over swells, as it creaks and bends, but the things are durable. If I broke a frame piece or longeron, I believe a field repair would bne pretty simple. The same is not true for a major hole in a hardshell. Most folks decide to re-engineer the seats in folders. I did that on my Folbot. Folbot supposedly now sells a really good seat. I have, as well, re-engineered the seats on ALL my singles, because they did not fit well. You can not miss -- thery are all boats! -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Diana and Nico, Folders are great boats, I've had four over the past 10 years and currently have an older Klepper. What your friends are trying to tell you is that the Klepper is not a really high performance boat. Think an older prop. plane vs. a jet. Both will get you there, but the trip will be a little choppier and slower in the folder. (I can hear Ralph disagreeing already!). Remember that if you stick with kayaking, you will experience a sharp learning curve. You may find that you desire faster, lighter kayaks soon - and then you will have already invested $5,000 (probably more now) on this boat. I would recommend you try some fast hardshell doubles before buying the Klepper. If you have the $$, it would be great to have one or two fast single hardshells AND the Klepper. Unfortunately most folks don't have such $$. The Klepper is a beautiful, functional boat and you won't go wrong buying it (very easy to resell). But just remember that you might want more speed and manuverability some day soon. Also, two singles allow you to get away from your better half every now and then! - Scott "N.D. VAN LOO" wrote: > Hi everyone, > > We have a simple question: Can anyone convince us that buying a > foldable double instead of a hardshell is a stupid and crazy idea? > > Let us explain: > We are new to kayaking and Paddlewise and considering to buy a kayak > somewhere end of this year. The only experience in kayaking is > limited to a couple of intructions at a local kayak club. > > When asking around to some " more experienced" kayakers, they all > told us about their favourite hardshell brands and their moste loved > types. At an outdoor exibition we saw a presentation of Klepper and > fell in love immediately. So we started to look around more carefully > at the internet and we read a couple of "standard books" on > seakayaking and kayaking in general. > > To cut a long story short, our conclusion (for the moment) is: > We want a foldable because its larger safety margin and foldability. > We consider Feathercraft/Klepper/Nautiraid doubles. Among these the > Klepper expedition (red colour) is the favourite. > > This conclusion when presented at the kayak club gave rise to quite > some resistance. Foldables were "not done". When we asked: "Could > you give any logical reason why a foldable is a bad idea?" The debate > focussed on, stability, preformance, vurnerability to rocks, > maintenance, folding/unfolding time etc. But most of our kayaking > friends had no experience at all with foldables. > > We are curious to learn from people that have experience > with both foldables and hardshells. Could any of them please tell us > why we are so wrong? > Anyone of you is also free to explain why buying a foldable is the > smartest thing to do! > > Thanks in Advance, > Diana and Nico-Dirk van Loo > N.D. van Loo, Msc > Dept. Cell Biology > Medical Faculty > Erasmus University Rotterdam > P.O. 1738 > 3000 DR Rotterdam > The Netherlands > TEL +31 10 4087165 > FAX +31 10 4089468 > VANLOO_at_CH1.FGG.EUR.NL > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** -- Scott Ives ssives_at_erols.com - avid father, husband, lawyer, photographer, kayaker, jet skier and Mustang Cobra convertible owner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
N.D. VAN LOO wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > We have a simple question: Can anyone convince us that buying a > foldable double instead of a hardshell is a stupid and crazy idea? It _is_ a stupid and crazy idea. Why would you want to buy a folding kayak? It would just put you in a kayak with a long distinguished pedigree of thousands of expedition accomplishments on ever waterway and large body of water from the Arctic to Antarctica and everywhere in between. Who would want to paddle a kayak that is the choice of such dainty, sissy paddlers as special operations forces the world over including those in your native Netherlands? Need I go on? It is a crazy idea, folding kayaks are no good; they are not even kayaks, just, ugh, "boats". Give it up! :-) > When asking around to some " more experienced" kayakers, they all > told us about their favourite hardshell brands and their moste loved > types. At an outdoor exibition we saw a presentation of Klepper and > fell in love immediately. So we started to look around more carefully > at the internet and we read a couple of "standard books" on > seakayaking and kayaking in general. I know, I know. That is just my point. If experienced paddlers say that the hardshells are better you should listen to them. I remember when well before I decided to write a book on folding kayaks, I asked an author of one of those leading seakayaking books why he had said such bad things about folding kayaks. He fumbled for an answer and said that is what "people" say about the boats and it turns out he had never been in one. > > To cut a long story short, our conclusion (for the moment) is: > We want a foldable because its larger safety margin and foldability. > We consider Feathercraft/Klepper/Nautiraid doubles. Among these the > Klepper expedition (red colour) is the favourite. > > This conclusion when presented at the kayak club gave rise to quite > some resistance. Foldables were "not done". When we asked: "Could > you give any logical reason why a foldable is a bad idea?" The debate > focussed on, stability, preformance, vurnerability to rocks, > maintenance, folding/unfolding time etc. But most of our kayaking > friends had no experience at all with foldables. Folding kayaks are much too stable; that makes them boring in heavy seas and takes away from the enjoyment of having to use all your bracing and rolling skills to survive. They don't perform well except in rough conditions. All those major open water crossing over the last 90 years including the Atlantic were just flukes, meaning exceptions. Yes, they are extremely vulnerable despite being able to be dropped from helicopters fully loaded from 20 feet up and crashed against enemy shores in the blackness of night loaded with a half ton of gear. Maintenance: the instructions say that you should varnish each year; those who never varnish like me, will not get the 70 years of life out of the frames just perhaps 30 years because of our unwise non-maintenance laziness. And that Klepper, it takes all of 10 minutes for two people to make; that is so much longer than putting a hardshell kayak on a roofrack (assuming the rack is always in place), strapping and tying it down, then untying and removing it from the roof at your paddling place. You are much better off in a hardshell that doesn't require assembly at some point. So what if you can't ship the latter anywhere except by special arrangement and at enormous cost or it depreciates 50 per cent in value within the first two years. Folding kayaks go as ordinary baggage everywhere and keep their value far too well; who would want those things. > We are curious to learn from people that have experience > with both foldables and hardshells. Could any of them please tell us > why we are so wrong? You are totally wrong. Afterall it is what people say. :-) :-) :-) ralph diaz p.s. Paddlewise, our Dutch friends who asked the questions know I am doing this tongue-in-cheek. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:57 AM 4/9/99 -0700, you wrote: > >p.s. Paddlewise, our Dutch friends who asked the questions know I am >doing this tongue-in-cheek. Jeez, thanks, Ralph. That had a bunch of us worried about how we were going to get that knot out of your tail. -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I have both and each have heir unique attributes. If I could only own one boat, it would be a Feathercraft Khatsalano, a high performance folder that compares in weight, size and comfort with my Nordkapp. The question I would be asking is not, folder vs. hard-shell, but 2 singles vs. 1 double. cu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Yes, a simple question, but it begs another question. What kind of padling are you planning to do? You need to address what your current and immediate future needs are, and make your decision based on that. In the long run, your kayaking skills and needs are going to change, and so will your equipment requirements. As that happens, you might sell your gear in exchange for newer/different one, of just acquire more boats and gear and end up with a small flotilla in your garage. Give it some thought, find out what your immediate needs are, and then everyone will be glad to help you. - Julio p.s. As far as I know, I do not have any common blood lines with the Duke of Alba. :-) > We have a simple question: Can anyone convince us that buying a > foldable double instead of a hardshell is a stupid and crazy idea? > smartest thing to do! > Diana and Nico-Dirk van Loo > Erasmus University Rotterdam *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 02:31 PM 09-04-99 +0000, N.D. VAN LOO wrote: >Hi everyone, > >We have a simple question: Can anyone convince us that buying a >foldable double instead of a hardshell is a stupid and crazy idea? >...(deleted)... At an outdoor exibition we saw a presentation of Klepper and >fell in love immediately. ...(deleted)... >We want a foldable because its larger safety margin and foldability. >We consider Feathercraft/Klepper/Nautiraid doubles. Among these the >Klepper expedition (red colour) is the favourite. Nice kayaks; we fell in love with folders after paddling them at a symposium a few years ago, and now own Kleppers, despite the initial higher investment in folding kayaks versus hardshells. We have a Klepper expedition double, which my spouse paddles solo, or we paddle double; we had the factory install the extra center seat position. We also own a Klepper 2000, which I paddle; the new two-bag system works great for me. We love the wood frames, canvas deck, sailing potential, and dog-carrying capacity. To my 2000 was added paddle pockets instead of paddle straps, extra D-rings and lifeline like the Quattro has, extra keel-strips to make the hull expedition-quality. I also had Mark Ekhart modify the spray-skirt attachment so that the Velcro would not be glued to my wood coaming; instead, that Velcro portion is on a tuck-under sprayskirt piece, to which the main portion attaches. Mark did a great job on this, and I recommend it to anyone who wants a quick-remove system without mucking up their coaming. >... when presented at the kayak club gave rise to quite >some resistance. Foldables were "not done". When we asked: "Could >you give any logical reason why a foldable is a bad idea?" The debate >focussed on, stability, preformance, vulnerability to rocks, >maintenance, folding/unfolding time etc. But most of our kayaking >friends had no experience at all with foldables. Their worries are mostly unfounded, as well as worthless since they have never been in a folding kayak; so all they know is hearsay from others with no experience. Not very useful. Our experience in Kleppers and hardshells is that Kleppers are more stable than hardshells, especially in rough water. Both are capable of capsizing, but hardshells are easier to capsize. Yes, Kleppers can be rolled; no, we can't roll them yet (the only sea kayak I can somewhat reliably roll is a Picolo). Both hardshells and folding kayaks require flotation bags; consider the air-filled tubes in folding kayaks as balance enhancers instead of flotation gear and get canoe end-bags to fill the Klepper bow and stern (kayak flotation bags are too small). Kleppers are not slow. The 2000 has phenomenal glide. The double moves well with two paddlers, and moves pretty well with just my spouse paddling(meaning he keeps up with the pack even when he is out of shape)...until we hit rough water, then both kayaks shoot ahead of everyone else, as we use forward strokes and they frantically brace to keep from capsizing. Maintenance is simple; we wash down our kayaks and all our gear with fresh water and let them dry. You can leave them assembled or put them in their bags, giving the option of car-topping like a hardshell, or keeping them safely inside your vehicle. We haven't varnished the wood or put 303 on the hull, but we may get to that sometime. So what about vulnerability to rocks? Well, you can crack and hole a hardshell, you can scrape or gouge its gel coat; you can also tear or hole a folding hull. We have never done any of those things, but we tend to baby our boats, whether hardshell or folding. We don't grind them onto the sand or rocks in takeoffs and landings, and we try to avoid barnacles. We did, however, get expedition hulls and extra keel strips because of the rugged terrain. Finally, folding and unfolding time. I can assemble the Klepper 2000 or the Klepper double in 10-15 minutes, taking my time. We can both assemble the Klepper double in 10-15 minutes, or my spouse can assemble it in 20-30 minutes slow-southern-time (grin) (sitting in a chair while assembling parts) or 15-20 minutes ambling time. Disassembly is equally easy, at 10 minutes more or less, depending upon how tired you are. >We are curious to learn from people that have experience >with both foldables and hardshells. Could any of them please tell us >why we are so wrong? You're wrong to let people who know nothing about folders talk you out of buying what you really want. We have never regretted our decision of going with Klepper. I did own a Feathercraft Khatsalano-S for awhile, which is a lovely craft, but takes far longer to assemble than I am willing to spend; 15 minutes is my maximum tolerance for assembly time. >Anyone of you is also free to explain why buying a foldable is the >smartest thing to do! You will love it. One recommendation, however, is do not get the Klepper paddles. Those paddles are awful, and the $90 per pair (two pair in a double) can be spent on better paddles, probably in the 230-250cm range, depending on who is in front/back, and how tall you are. Try before you buy. Initial investment is higher than for most doubles, but you will never need another kayak; you might add a sail rig in the future, then have a folding kayak/sailboat. If you plan to do that, then I suggest the newer larger sailing rudder assembly. Also, on a double, sometimes a rudder is helpful in cross-wind/current, but I would recommend learning to handle those things without a rudder, then you can use it when you feel lazy (without being endangered if it breaks, as all rudders are prone to do eventually). >Thanks in Advance, >Diana and Nico-Dirk van Loo >VANLOO_at_CH1.FGG.EUR.NL Hope this has helped. Ralph Diaz can tell you a lot more, and also advise you about the other folding kayaks. You might want to read his book "The Complete Folding Kayaker", which has 1994 prices, and doesn't have boats new since then, but the information is still quite valuable and valid. Hopefully, he'll be using his "Folding Kayaker Newsletter" articles to aid writing an updated second edition for his book...how about it Ralph...is in the works yet? <grin> Regards, Leander overfall_at_ix.netcom.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Julio Mac Williams wrote: Yes, a simple question, but it begs another question. What kind of padling are you planning to do? In the Netherlands you have two major options 1. Sea kayaking 2. Large bodies of water (lake and river) With the addition of wind alsmost always between 3-6 Bf. Diana and nico-Dirk N.D. van Loo, Msc Dept. Cell Biology Medical Faculty Erasmus University Rotterdam P.O. 1738 3000 DR Rotterdam The Netherlands TEL +31 10 4087165 FAX +31 10 4089468 VANLOO_at_CH1.FGG.EUR.NL *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, N.D. VAN LOO wrote: Hi > > We have a simple question: Can anyone convince us that buying a > foldable double instead of a hardshell is a stupid and crazy idea? > Just ask the members of your local club... If you want a pro foldable argument read the Seakayak FAQ, especially the section on foldables by Ralph Diaz. It is a succinct and precise summary of all arguments in favor of foldables. If you want to know more, read his book. > > This conclusion when presented at the kayak club gave rise to quite > some resistance. Foldables were "not done". When we asked: "Could > you give any logical reason why a foldable is a bad idea?" The debate > focussed on, stability, preformance, vurnerability to rocks, > maintenance, folding/unfolding time etc. But most of our kayaking > friends had no experience at all with foldables. > I experienced the same thing at my local club last year in France. I was not satisfied with their answers and continued to collect information. I read the Seakayak FAQ, then read Ralph's book and in then bought a red Klepper Aerius I. And the club? Laughter, jokes and ridicule! I was made to understand that spending so much money on a foldable was outright stupid, " une grosse betise". Up to now, I didn't regret my choice, the Klepper proved to be a fine boat, not just on outdoor expositions. At last two arguments against foldables: 1. They are expensive and many people don't want to spend the money on boats that last longer. 2. Their use in heavy White Water is limited. Navigating on rivers consisting of "einer Ansammlung nasser Steine" (an allottment of wet rocks, Rittlinger) is better done in plastic boats. It has already been pointed out in some answers that the argument 2 singles vs. double is of prime importance. As a beginner I would rather opt for two singles. Reinhold P.S.: Seakayak FAQ: http://siolibrary.ucsd.edu/preston/kayak/faqs/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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