Doug, I greatly enjoy reading about your storm adventures even though I am not remotely tempted to follow you out into those conditions. But I do learn from your experiences. Here is the first of several questions I have. Does any storm paddler use a wing paddle? Would it be a dumb idea? Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jerry, I can't call myself a storm paddler --- though I have hopes of becoming one some day. I do use a wing paddle, however, for most of my sea kayak paddling. I love the powerful efficient stroke you get from a wing paddle. It takes some getting used to, but low braces, sweep strokes, rudder strokes and a really potent screw roll can all be done with a wing (in fact, I've heard the wing refered to as a "rolling cheater stick" since once you get set up correctly, its much easier to roll with a wing than with a boring traditional paddle). For surfing and serious rough water, though, I would not use a wing. I like having the option of high braces and skulling strokes --- two types of strokes you just can't properly do with a wing. Also, if you need to dodge something quick, you want to be able to do a dufek (another non-wing stroke). Finally, when you mis-stroke with a wing, the paddle either rips out of your hand or flips you. Not a pleasant prospect in storm conditions. So in the humble opinion of this heavy wing user who is actively trying to become a storm paddler, i would not use a wing for storm paddling. I would love to hear from any fellow paddlewisers who think otherwise. --Tim -----Original Message----- From: Gerald Foodman To: inetex Cc: paddlewise Sent: 4/14/99 4:41 PM Subject: [Paddlewise] Storm Wing? Doug, I greatly enjoy reading about your storm adventures even though I am not remotely tempted to follow you out into those conditions. But I do learn from your experiences. Here is the first of several questions I have. Does any storm paddler use a wing paddle? Would it be a dumb idea? Jerry ************************************************************************ *** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ************************************************************************ *** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Mattson, Timothy G wrote: <<SNIP>> > So in the humble opinion of this heavy wing user who is actively trying to > become a storm paddler, i would not use a wing for storm paddling. > > I would love to hear from any fellow paddlewisers who think otherwise. > > --Tim I use a wing paddle in storm conditions all the time. In fact it is the only paddle I use on the sea, and guess what... I made it myself. It is a Greenland paddle. By far the best rough water, high or low bracing, sculling, and rolling paddle that exists. And, if you use a properly constructed Greenland paddle with modern wing paddle technique, you will be amazed at the speed and power available. Just my opinion... Kevin ps. I have yet to see a commercially produced Greenland paddle that is anything close to what a proper Greenland paddle should be. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: K. Whilden <kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu> > >I use a wing paddle in storm conditions all the time. .... It is a >Greenland paddle. By far the best rough water, high or low bracing, >sculling, and rolling paddle that exists. And, if you use a properly >constructed Greenland paddle with modern wing paddle technique, you will >be amazed at the speed and power available. > >Just my opinion... >Kevin > >ps. I have yet to see a commercially produced Greenland paddle that is >anything close to what a proper Greenland paddle should be. > >*************************************************************************** Kevin, I don't at all understand how you consider a Greenland like a wing. I have a commercial Greenland (by Mark Rogers of Superior Kayaks) and have tried wing wing paddles. They couldn't be more different. What am I missing? Are you joking? What do you mean by modern wing technique with a Greenland? Don't you use a very low flat stroke with the Greenland? And what do you mean by properly constructed Greenland? What is wrong with the Mark Rogers paddles? (I liked the Greenland but now use an AT, which seems to me better in every way, except cost, where it is MUCH worse.) Another question: Do you use a very short "Storm" Greenland, with sliding stroke, for storm paddling? It seems to me that even the usual Greenland length of 7' is too short for rough water paddling. I prefer 7'6". Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Gerald Foodman wrote: > > Kevin, > I don't at all understand how you consider a Greenland like a wing. I have > a commercial Greenland (by Mark Rogers of Superior Kayaks) and have tried > wing wing paddles. They couldn't be more different. What am I missing? > Are you joking? What do you mean by modern wing technique with a Greenland? > Don't you use a very low flat stroke with the Greenland? A greenland paddle technically is a wing, since it has a symmetrical foil shape which produces forward lift if paddled in the right way. This has been discussed before on Paddlewise. Modern wing technique means to use a very high angle, extended arm stroke just like modern kayak races use with modern wing paddles. I think the amount of lift generated is significant in this way, although I have not tested it against a modern wing paddle. As Tim suggested in another post, this was an informative joke... Sort of. I do think that a Greenland is the best kind of paddle for sea kayaking period, and I think I shall need to test a good Greenland paddle against a racing wing paddle this summer. I certainly consider a Greenland paddle to be a symmetrical wing paddle, and a modern racing wing paddle to be an asymmetrical wing. > > And what do you mean by properly constructed Greenland? What is wrong with > the Mark Rogers paddles? Two main things. One, a Greenland paddle should have a much thicker cross-section than commericial paddles, and it should have a diamond shape everywhere except at the tips of the blade. This generates more lift. Two, it should have the "thumb-bumps" at the base of the blades, which allows for automatic indexing when using a sliding stroke. According to George Gronseth, who has been to a Greenland kayaking camp, these are not minor points. > > (I liked the Greenland but now use an AT, which seems to me better in every > way, except cost, where it is MUCH worse.) > I also really like the AT paddle, but I would not consider it better than my greenland paddle in any way except perhaps in surf, where blade area is more important than efficiency. I would probably get an AT sea kayak paddle to keep my AT whitewater paddle company if it weren't for the prohibitive cost. > Another question: Do you use a very short "Storm" Greenland, with sliding > stroke, for storm paddling? It seems to me that even the usual Greenland > length of 7' is too short for rough water paddling. I prefer 7'6". > My Greenland paddle is 7'6", although I made it a little bit longer to compensate for reduced width in the blades -- I used a finished 2x4 as a blank. I use a sliding stroke, a wing type stroke, and a high-efficiency stroke all interchangeably, although I prefer the high-efficiency stroke for general cruising, and the wing for accelerating and catching waves. I use the sliding stroke as a muscle-relaxer. I am REALLY looking forward to paddling with Maligiaq this coming weekend at the Anacortes skin kayak festival. Cheers, Kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I'm sure Kevin will jump in with his own responce, but as a committed wing user, I felt I needed to get involved with this one. I suspect Kevin's comments were meant as an "informative joke". He was probably refering to the fact that many strokes with "proper" Greenland paddles also include a hydrodynamic lift component. If you define a "wing" paddle as any paddle that generates lift, than you could call a Greenland paddle a wing. ... But as you point out, a true "wing paddle" (like the ones racers use) and a "greenland" paddle couldn't be more different. Yes you can (and i do) use a wing paddle stroke with a greenland paddle, but that doesn't make them the same beast. The fact is, there are many things you can do with a greenland paddle that you can't do with a wing paddle (sculling strokes and high braces for example). And I can get much more power from my totally awesome Epic wing paddle than from my Greenland paddle. Before all you greenlanders out there get upset and think i'm calling Greenland paddles slow, I want to emphasize that when I'm going out with a group and need to cruise long distances, I frequently use my Greenland paddle. I love them. They are so gentle on the joints and I love playing with the inherent bouancy in the paddle. Also, using my greenland paddle for recreational paddling, I have no problem keeping up with the group. --Tim P.S. Interesting enough, in my Khatsalano or my sea lion, my top speed is the same with my wing and my greenland paddle. I had to use a boat designed for racing, a Seda Glider, before I saw a difference between the paddles --- and the difference was signficant. I was around 20% faster with my wing than with my greenland paddle. The point is, you have to consider the resistance generated by the boat when looking at speed. Its not enough to just look at the paddle. -----Original Message----- From: Gerald Foodman To: K. Whilden; Mattson, Timothy G Cc: 'paddlewise ' Sent: 4/19/99 10:02 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Storm Wing? -----Original Message----- From: K. Whilden <kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu> > >I use a wing paddle in storm conditions all the time. .... It is a >Greenland paddle. By far the best rough water, high or low bracing, >sculling, and rolling paddle that exists. And, if you use a properly >constructed Greenland paddle with modern wing paddle technique, you will >be amazed at the speed and power available. > >Just my opinion... >Kevin > >ps. I have yet to see a commercially produced Greenland paddle that is >anything close to what a proper Greenland paddle should be. > >*********************************************************************** **** Kevin, I don't at all understand how you consider a Greenland like a wing. I have a commercial Greenland (by Mark Rogers of Superior Kayaks) and have tried wing wing paddles. They couldn't be more different. What am I missing? Are you joking? What do you mean by modern wing technique with a Greenland? Don't you use a very low flat stroke with the Greenland? And what do you mean by properly constructed Greenland? What is wrong with the Mark Rogers paddles? (I liked the Greenland but now use an AT, which seems to me better in every way, except cost, where it is MUCH worse.) Another question: Do you use a very short "Storm" Greenland, with sliding stroke, for storm paddling? It seems to me that even the usual Greenland length of 7' is too short for rough water paddling. I prefer 7'6". Jerry ************************************************************************ *** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ************************************************************************ *** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:32:58 PDT