> From: Mattson, Timothy G [mailto:timothy.g.mattson_at_intel.com] snip > Shouldn't sea kayakers also carry cool macho > looking knives > if they are going to start using painters, tethers, tow ropes > or any other > kinds of ropes? > Recalling a discussion about knives quite a while back, I think that *most* of the Paddlewise crowd do carry knives when sea kayaking. My personal choice is the Gerber River Shorty, but there seemed to be quite a variety of opinions about which knife, or which features, serve a paddler most effectively. I've never needed to use my knife for any type of self-extrication or rescue, but it's always there.....ready to serve its primary function as peanut-butter spreader<g>. Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska (back from a terrible ordeal with the email server) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
My experience with knives is that they provide a false sense of safety. Most people put knives on their PFD, but have never tried them in simulated or real situations. When the time comes, you may be in for a surprise. An example follows. In hangliding, the knife fashion is still alive. As kayaker do, many hanglider pilots carry a knife in their chest. One day I decided to try one. I hanged from my glider in the back yard, and had someone measure the time it would take me to cut my attachment to the glider. Surprise! The glider's strap was much stronger than what any knife could cut in four hours. Then I repeated the test with a scuba diving knife, and I did cut the strap that tied me to the glider in 40 seconds. That is more than what most people can hold their breath under stress. That clearly shows that the knifes used in hangliding are useless when a pilot falls in the water. The pilot would be much better off forgetting about the knife and looking for other means of getting out of the harness and out of the water. Back to sea kayaking, have any of you ever tried to get out of a fishing net, or any entangling rope, at least in a simulated and controlled scenario? Are you sure your knife is going to cut the ropes in a reasonable amount of time? Knifes, like any other "safety gadget" (ironic quotes) are useless without previous testing and training. But knives, unlike most safety equipment, have not even been tested by the manufacturers. - Julio Dave wrote: > Recalling a discussion about knives quite a while back, I think that > *most* of the Paddlewise crowd do carry knives when sea kayaking. My > Dave Seng *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Bill Leonhardt wrote --- 5. I'd also like to hear more from Joq Martin. I too carried a knife with a hook for cutting parachute cords while flying. As I recall, that knife had a push button opening (aka switch blade) for the normal pointed cutting blade but the hook blade had to be folded out. The knife used to reside in the little pocket on the left thigh of my flight suit and it sounds like you've duplicated this pocket near the zipper on your PFD. Are these knives a viable candidate for kayaking and are they available to civilians? The very same, Bill. Handy little widget, but the "switch blade" feature should have been on the shroud cutter, not that nasty pocket knife balde. (Mine was international orange.) The Guide Knife is available from at least one kayak supply catalog --- still looking to see where I bought it. Comes with a black nylon sheath that I had sewn into the flat panel on the left side of the front zipper of my PFD --- out of the way, but always available with a tug down on the locking snap. (The knife is maybe eight inches long, one inch wide and less than a quarter of an inch thick. Pretty compact.) The hollow handle is hi-viz nylon, and there are spare stainless steel blades inside. The whole deal is about $20. Operationally, it will work on any light line or webbing that you might have on a kayak and want to terminate quickly --- tow line, sea anchor, paddle leash, whatever. A great backup device. But lousy for spreading peanut butter. There are always drawbacks. Will get the supplier on the list by the weekend. Joq *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jack_Martin_at_jtif.webfld.navy.mil wrote: > > > Bill Leonhardt wrote --- > > > 5. I'd also like to hear more from Joq Martin. I too carried a knife > with a hook for cutting parachute cords while flying. As I recall, that > knife had a push button opening (aka switch blade) for the normal pointed > cutting blade but the hook blade had to be folded out. The knife used to > reside in the little pocket on the left thigh of my flight suit and it > sounds like you've duplicated this pocket near the zipper on your PFD. Are > these knives a viable candidate for kayaking and are they available to > civilians? > > The very same, Bill. Handy little widget, but the "switch blade" > feature should have been on the shroud cutter, not that nasty pocket > knife balde. (Mine was international orange.) > > The Guide Knife is available from at least one kayak supply catalog > --- still looking to see where I bought it. Comes with a black nylon > sheath that I had sewn into the flat panel on the left side of the > front zipper of my PFD --- out of the way, but always available with a > tug down on the locking snap. (The knife is maybe eight inches long, > one inch wide and less than a quarter of an inch thick. Pretty > compact.) The hollow handle is hi-viz nylon, and there are spare > stainless steel blades inside. The whole deal is about $20. > > Operationally, it will work on any light line or webbing that you > might have on a kayak and want to terminate quickly --- tow line, sea > anchor, paddle leash, whatever. A great backup device. But lousy for > spreading peanut butter. There are always drawbacks. > > Will get the supplier on the list by the weekend. > > Joq > One source of the above knife is Cabela's 1-800-237-4444, it goes by the name of Wyoming knife, guide, and in some places as a swiggy??. I also believe Gorilla and son's carry a version. James *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Bill Leonhardt wrote: > 5. I'd also like to hear more from Joq Martin. I too carried a knife > with a hook for cutting parachute cords while flying. As I recall, that > knife had a push button opening (aka switch blade) for the normal pointed > cutting blade but the hook blade had to be folded out. The knife used to > reside in the little pocket on the left thigh of my flight suit and it > sounds like you've duplicated this pocket near the zipper on your PFD. Are > these knives a viable candidate for kayaking and are they available to > civilians? There is a type known as "hook knife" by skydivers. It's purpose is to cut through cords and other parachute stuff (kevlar, cordura etc) at e.g. a water landing or if you get entangled in the air. You can get a hook knife from any skydiving equipment dealer. See e.g. http://www.squareoneparachutes.com/Catalog/Catalog.html Choose Accessories -> Hook knives. The cutting edges reside inside a hook, hence the name hook knife. The design makes it impossible to cut yourself. I don't know of any hook knives with button opening. The knives must be ready to use as quickly as possible, so they aren't foldable or operated by buttons. Most skydivers wear quite tiny knives, but there is a beefy Swedish hook knife called "Jack the Ripper" that I can recommend. It has an ergonomic handle designed to be used with gloves. It's made of plastic with replaceable stainless steel knives. I think this kind of knife could be useful in sea kayaking. -Anders Marklund *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph wrote; (SNIP of worthwhile thoughts on knives etc..) >For me, a paddling knife (let's call it that) has a specific purpose and >should be chosen for that and that only. And if it could do other >things like spread peanut butter, cut up kielbasa, etc. great. The >purpose of a paddling knife is to cut you free of entanglement. If you >have absolutely nothing on you or your boat that can entangle you, you >don't need a knife. If you have potential sources of entanglement, you >do. I am one of those minimalist paddlers with almost nothing on deck and not a lot inside either. Comes from many years of ship and boat building where we do our best to keep things simple. While many things do work best if easily accessible it is worth the excersize of questioning if they pose more peril than benefit. >I could see the long discussions on PaddleWise over such >an accident and John Winters bringing up the idea of diapers as a better >solution to the need that did me in. :-) Actually Ralph, I hadn't thought of that but I was in the drug store today and looking at an adult diaper for adults who are incontinent and thinking what a neat idea that might be. Also I was told about a poly device sold by West Marine that was supposedly non tippng and had a little spout for the purpose and a plug. A funnel like thing was also sold for female paddlers. Very cheap so they say. >As for survival purposes onshore, I'm not sure what one expects to meet >onshore where you paddle. Here in the New York City area it is mainly >human danger. In a sheath, any knife looks menacing. I remember one >late afternoon arriving at a beach in Northern Manhattan to find >awaiting me a half dozen young toughs sharing a bottle of something. >They were so in awe that anyone would come in from what is an alien >world for them that they just let me be. The paddle in my hand and the >Rambo look of my knife probably helped too. Who wants to mess with a >crazed old man emerging from the sea carrying a club and wearing a >knife? I use a folding knife that I can skin and field dress a vegetarian in ten minutes. It looks dangeous and is so we don't have lots of arguments on my trips. Works best with a crazed look. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:23:44 -0700 (MST), you wrote: >On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, Mark Stirling wrote: > >>> >>>paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:12:22 -0700 (MST), >>>you wrote: >>> >>>Try Paramedics Scissors these have blunt ends and are strong enough to >>>cut through plastic yaks if needed. >>> >>>Mark S, :-) > > >have you actually tried that?? someone i know went to a rescue class, and >a boat was put into a "pinned" position, and anyone who wanted could try >to cut it up. even folks who carried small rescue saws had a rough time. snip Yes - they do work! I have actually done this although not in an emergency situation. However, the point I was trying to make is that a knife is NOT the only solution to the tasks at hand. The paramedics shears are easily usable with one hand, no tension required on lines etc. to be cut , can apply a lot of force by their shearing action with safety next to human skin! I do carry a chain saw in my survival kit (very compact) and it does cut large objects with ease but it would probably cut up the person trapped inside the yak in an actual rescue. Saws do not provide a simple answer either. I realize that a pair of stainless steel shears do not have the same psychological effect on others as a knife but are an effective and reliable tool in survival situations. I would note that shears are safer when one is cold and weak and has lost most dexterity. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Julio MacWilliams wrote: > > My experience with knives is that they provide a false sense of safety. > Most people put knives on their PFD, but have never tried them > in simulated or real situations. When the time comes, you may be > in for a surprise. An example follows. > > In hangliding, the knife fashion is still alive. As kayaker do, many > hanglider pilots carry a knife in their chest. One day I decided > to try one. I hanged from my glider in the back yard, and had someone > measure the time it would take me to cut my attachment to the glider. > Surprise! The glider's strap was much stronger than what any knife > could cut in four hours. Then I repeated the test with a scuba diving > knife, and I did cut the strap that tied me to the glider in 40 seconds. > That is more than what most people can hold their breath under stress. > > > Back to sea kayaking, have any of you ever tried to get out of > a fishing net, or any entangling rope, at least in a simulated > and controlled scenario? Are you sure your knife is going > to cut the ropes in a reasonable amount of time? I regularly check that my knife will cut through any thickness of line or webbing that I use inside and outside my folding kayaks as well as all tethers. About 1 to 2 seconds to cut through any of the lines and about the same for the webbing unless at an awkward angle where it takes a second or two longer. I have not tried entangling myself in the stuff just dry runs on land. My knife is the result of long search for something practical in and around folding kayaks. What I have is what is called the Survivor model from Gerber (was arond $60 when I bought it in 1990 or so). It has a blunt point. Its cutting surface is only on one side and consists strictly of broad serrations, i.e. no sharp honed edge. I can grab the knife by its blade and not cut myself and I can run its cutting surface across my hand in a light fashion and not slice skin. It is tethered to my PFD and on a shoulder mounted sheath. My guess is that in a capsize, if entangled in some webbing or line, I would likely reach for the knife and, in a worse case scenario, wind up dropping it at first. I then could retrieve it by its tether, grab the knife even accidentally by the blade, re-orient it to a cutting position without cutting myself and then cut through whatever is entangling me even close to the skin since there is no point to jab me either. Will it work perfectly in a real life situation...probably not. But knowing that it will slice through anything but not likely cut or jab me, is comfort enough. Consider the alternative...entanglement and nothing to release yourself with except the hope that someone nearby is in a position to rescue you and help you work out of your entanglement. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Actually, in diving a piece of 50lb test line could kill you. Try to break that with your bare hands underwater. I usually carry 2 knives, one on my leg and the other on my BC so if I am tied up and unable to reach my primary I've got the BC knife for a backup. cu -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net] On Behalf Of Julio MacWilliams Sent: Thursday, April 08, 1999 12:44 PM To: David Seng Cc: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: [Paddlewise] Knives My experience with knives is that they provide a false sense of safety. Most people put knives on their PFD, but have never tried them in simulated or real situations. When the time comes, you may be in for a surprise. An example follows. In hangliding, the knife fashion is still alive. As kayaker do, many hanglider pilots carry a knife in their chest. One day I decided to try one. I hanged from my glider in the back yard, and had someone measure the time it would take me to cut my attachment to the glider. Surprise! The glider's strap was much stronger than what any knife could cut in four hours. Then I repeated the test with a scuba diving knife, and I did cut the strap that tied me to the glider in 40 seconds. That is more than what most people can hold their breath under stress. That clearly shows that the knifes used in hangliding are useless when a pilot falls in the water. The pilot would be much better off forgetting about the knife and looking for other means of getting out of the harness and out of the water. Back to sea kayaking, have any of you ever tried to get out of a fishing net, or any entangling rope, at least in a simulated and controlled scenario? Are you sure your knife is going to cut the ropes in a reasonable amount of time? Knifes, like any other "safety gadget" (ironic quotes) are useless without previous testing and training. But knives, unlike most safety equipment, have not even been tested by the manufacturers. - Julio Dave wrote: > Recalling a discussion about knives quite a while back, I think that > *most* of the Paddlewise crowd do carry knives when sea kayaking. My > Dave Seng *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
The new Gerber shorty with the hole in it and the line cutter looks interesting. It comes in both flat and pointed versions *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
From: Julio MacWilliams <juliom_at_cisco.com> Subject: [Paddlewise] Knives To: David_at_wainet.com (David Seng) Date sent: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 09:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Copies to: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > My experience with knives is that they provide a false sense of safety. > Most people put knives on their PFD, but have never tried them > in simulated or real situations. When the time comes, you may be > in for a surprise. An example follows. > > In hangliding, the knife fashion is still alive..... Don't know anything about hangliding, Julio, but in Naval aviation we always carried a knife called a "shroud cutter" --- in addition to our huge K-Bar survival knives, of course. The shroud cutter is a "J" shaped knife, either a solid piece of steel with a hook shaped blade or a hook shaped casing with two replacable razor sharp blades incorporated inside the hook. (It's the knife I espoused in the last Great PaddleWise Knife War we had --- what was that? Last month? The month before? Dunno.) It is reincarnated in one of the catalogs as "The Guide Knive", and, other than its really cool flourescent yellow handle (that you don't see inside its case), it looks pretty boring. About $20. A very good deal. I've never fired this knife in anger, but I've used it extensively to shred some big and nasty stuff including aircraft cargo nets which were used to construct duck blinds and later abandoned during an enviro-cleanup at NAS Pax River last year. The little critter sliced through heavy webbing in a flash. I'd tested it on new seat belt material straps when I got it, and it did the same thing --- sliced the material in half with little effort. AND it's pilot-proof --- the round- tipped scissors for Navy pilots, please --- and can, in a pinch, also be used to spread peanut butter, although I agree with Dave Seng that the "fire for effect" Gerber River Shorty --- which I also carry mostly so it looks like I have a real knife --- is much better at lunch time. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:43 AM 4/8/99 -0700, Julio MacWilliams wrote: >My experience with knives is that they provide a false sense of safety. >Are you sure your knife is going >to cut the ropes in a reasonable amount of time? > >Knifes, like any other "safety gadget" (ironic quotes) are useless >without previous testing and training. Hi Julio et al The short -n- sweet answer: Whatever sorta edge you choose, keep that sucker razor sharp. ByeBye! S. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>Actually, in diving a piece of 50lb test line could kill you. Try to break >that with your bare hands underwater. I usually carry 2 knives, one on my >leg and the other on my BC so if I am tied up and unable to reach my primary >I've got the BC knife for a backup. Even less strength, these days. --And what do you do about such stuff as Spider Wire? It's not easy to cut at all... some divers now carry ceramic knives or scissors to deal with that stuff. I carry a Gerber on my PFD that can be reached with either hand. On a separate rescue pouch I carry a seatbelt cutter. One strong yank with that will go through most webbing and even up to 1/2 inch rope. JP *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Another good safety device is a pair of EMT scissors. They are inexpensive, and can be purchased in a nylon sheath. cu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>On a separate rescue pouch I carry a seatbelt cutter. One strong yank with >that will go through most webbing and even up to 1/2 inch rope. >JP What is a seatbelt cutter? Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>> >What is a seatbelt cutter? >Jerry It's a widget used by rescue personnel to cut the seatbelt of an auto accident victim so he can be gotten out quickly. It's a molded plastic piece about 5 inches long by 1 1/2 across. There's a slit along one side with a sharp steel blade angled across it and terminates in a round hole. There's also a fingerhole for you to grab it by. Sorta like those envelope slitters, only bigger. Think of a large enclosed version of a guide knife. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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