Timothy.g.mattson_at_intel.com writes: > If the conditions are > bad enough that I need to swim, I've done something really stupid and > deserve to byte the big one. Well, me too. But I'd still like to somehow slither out of my well-deserved death if something goes wrong. You are spot-on about rolling. It's irresponsible of senior paddlers and instructors to not encourage people to learn to roll. (Though I doubt many instructors would say this: bad business sense!) More often, it's the paddler who becomes intimidated. With drysuits for outdoor practice, and pool sessions everywhere, everyone should try to learn to roll. As Tim says, whitewater paddlers learn to roll early on, and sea boats are not very different to roll. Especially when you consider that even most severe ocean conditions would be easier to roll in than many whitewater situations. I'm pretty confident in my roll, and I do practice. But I can think of expedition conditions which could cause me to fail, such as injury or weakness from a flu, gastro-intestinal distress, etc. So a pump makes sense for me. Especially if we are talking under $50 for a foot pump, and under $30 for electric. I have a Klepper, and I could see tossing a small electric pump in, and running an outlet hose out the mast fitting. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 05:55 PM 5/11/99 EDT, VajraT_at_aol.com wrote: >Timothy.g.mattson_at_intel.com writes: > If the conditions are >> bad enough that I need to swim, I've done something really stupid and >> deserve to byte the big one. >Well, me too. But I'd still like to somehow slither out of my well-deserved >death if something goes wrong. > >You are spot-on about rolling. It's irresponsible of senior paddlers and >instructors to not encourage people to learn to roll. (Though I doubt many >instructors would say this: bad business sense!) More often, it's the >paddler who becomes intimidated. With drysuits for outdoor practice, and >pool sessions everywhere, everyone should try to learn to roll. As Tim says, >whitewater paddlers learn to roll early on, and sea boats are not very >different to roll. Especially when you consider that even most severe ocean >conditions would be easier to roll in than many whitewater situations. > Call me irresponsible because I don't encourage people to learn to roll till after they learn how to paddle and do self rescues. Every one ( almost) want to learn how to roll first and to learn other skills later. If you can do a paddle float reentry and have your BASIC skills I (me personally) feel you are better off than knowing how to roll and not have your BASIC skills. nuff said.you can start yelling now!!! Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On May 11, 17:55, VajraT_at_aol.com wrote: } Subject: [Paddlewise] Roll or Die? > Timothy.g.mattson_at_intel.com writes: > If the conditions are > > bad enough that I need to swim, I've done something really stupid and > > deserve to byte the big one. > Well, me too. But I'd still like to somehow slither out of my well-deserved > death if something goes wrong. > > You are spot-on about rolling. It's irresponsible of senior paddlers and > instructors to not encourage people to learn to roll. (Though I doubt many > instructors would say this: bad business sense!) More often, it's the > paddler who becomes intimidated. With drysuits for outdoor practice, and > pool sessions everywhere, everyone should try to learn to roll. As Tim says, > whitewater paddlers learn to roll early on, and sea boats are not very > different to roll. Especially when you consider that even most severe ocean > conditions would be easier to roll in than many whitewater situations. > > I'm pretty confident in my roll, and I do practice. But I can think of > expedition conditions which could cause me to fail, such as injury or > weakness from a flu, gastro-intestinal distress, etc. So a pump makes sense > for me. > > Especially if we are talking under $50 for a foot pump, and under $30 for > electric. I have a Klepper, and I could see tossing a small electric pump > in, and running an outlet hose out the mast fitting. You roll a Klepper? Some sea kayaks are pretty easy to roll, but I've never heard that the Kleppers are. I've never been in a Klepper, though, so maybe my impression is incorrect. -- Bob Myers InteleNet Communications, Inc. Email: bob_at_InteleNet.net 18101 Von Karman Avenue, Suite 550 Phone: 949-851-8250 x227 Irvine, CA 92612 Fax: 949-851-1088 http://www.intelenet.net/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
VajraT_at_aol.com wrote: > You are spot-on about rolling. It's irresponsible of senior paddlers and > instructors to not encourage people to learn to roll. I don't agree. I can roll easily on both sides and do so if I need to and also to cool off, but many of the people that I often paddle with don't need a roll. About a quarter of this group could be described as seniors and they paddle on calm rivers and lakes within a couple hundred metres of shore, in good conditions. If the weather is bad (or predicted to be bad) or the water is lumpy, they don't go out. For a lot of them, learning to roll a sea kayak at their age is just not there for someone who mainly wants to take a quiet paddle on a nice day. They wear their PFDs, carry all the necessary safety equipment, and paddle safely. If any are interested in rolling I would certainly help them learn, but I am not going to tell them they should be rolling. Would they be safer with a roll? Probably, but for their purposes it is not a necessity. John *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 11-5-1999 6:39:35 PM EST, bob_at_intelenet.net writes: > You roll a Klepper? Sorry for the confusion: I have two boats, a McNulty Huntsman and a Klepper Aerius tandem. I haven't rolled the Klepper. Bye, Jim *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On May 12, 10:08, VajraT_at_aol.com wrote: } Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Roll or Die? > In a message dated 11-5-1999 6:39:35 PM EST, bob_at_intelenet.net writes: > > > You roll a Klepper? > > Sorry for the confusion: I have two boats, a McNulty Huntsman and a Klepper > Aerius tandem. I haven't rolled the Klepper. So how important is a roll for a Klepper paddler? There really is a point to this - rolling is only a necessary skill if your boat is prone to capsizing. Not all kayaks are, as you know. Rolling is not really a necessary skill for a Klepper paddler, wouldn't you agree? -- Bob Myers InteleNet Communications, Inc. Email: bob_at_InteleNet.net 18101 Von Karman Avenue, Suite 550 Phone: 949-851-8250 x227 Irvine, CA 92612 Fax: 949-851-1088 http://www.intelenet.net/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> Rolling is not really a necessary skill for a Klepper paddler, wouldn't > you agree? I guess, if you paddle the Klepper on a small pond in your backyard... Seriously, it depends on the conditions that you expect (or don't expect) to encounter. Are you saying that a Klepper is so stable that it will <never ever> tip? If you tip, then a roll is the best method to recover. I can't imagine that a Klepper (or any other boat) is tip-proof given the right conditions. Around here thunderstorms arrive with little advance warning, I've seen dead calm conditions turn into 40-50 MPH gusts in a matter of minutes. Rolling is easy <and> fun to learn. Anybody can do it!! Learning to roll requires more finesse than physical strength. The biggest inhibitor to learning to roll seems to be the fear of being upside-down in the boat. This fear seems to revolve around unexpected encounters with sea critters. I guess that people think that a snake or shark is going to bite their face while being downside up. Greg - Greg Hollingsworth EMAIL: gregh_at_abs.net PHONE: 240-228-6065 WWW: abs.net/~gregh/kayaking LIVES: Sykesville, Maryland WORKS: Johns Hopkins/Applied Physics Lab PADDLES: Red Nordkapp usually on Chesapeake tributaries - *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 16:22 5/12/99 -0700, bob_at_intelenet.net (Bob Myers) wrote: > >On May 12, 10:08, VajraT_at_aol.com wrote: >} Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Roll or Die? >> In a message dated 11-5-1999 6:39:35 PM EST, bob_at_intelenet.net writes: >> >> > You roll a Klepper? >> >> Sorry for the confusion: I have two boats, a McNulty Huntsman and a Klepper >> Aerius tandem. I haven't rolled the Klepper. > >So how important is a roll for a Klepper paddler? > >There really is a point to this - rolling is only a necessary skill >if your boat is prone to capsizing. Not all kayaks are, as you know. > >Rolling is not really a necessary skill for a Klepper paddler, wouldn't >you agree? my two cents finally had to come out ... i may not ever be able to roll a boat again [and i've only rolled a canoe, one time, second try, in a pool, with several _top_ coaches!!] ... and now paddle a sea kayak, mostly. so i rely on not ever going over!! now, that means sometimes i never get to relax. i also paddle up to class III whitewater in a kayak. i don't believe that a roll is the end all, and maybe some will say "if you can't roll, you can't go" or else say "you have no business being out in that" ... but i make a very, very careful decision every time i paddle ... is this "over my head" and "could it become that way" sometimes the answer to the first is no, the second is no, and i go. sometimes the answer is no/yes, and i have to evaluate, another question, what are the chances of it going bad... if low, i still go; if high, i pass. i was supposed to lead a trip last weekend, which i hope still went, as the flood waters had come way up, and then dropped to a fun level, i've paddled much higher before. i still passed [partly due to injury, but that also weighed in on the choice]. i could have run it, but if rocks had shifted in the river, and rapids changed around blind corners, the risk to me was too high. unfortunately, many that don't make the right choice, do so through ignorance, not stupidity. i feel lucky to have been a canoeing instructor in the past, and have experience making educated choices in this field... and now that i've rambled, i watched my solo canoe rolled once, by someone else. of course from the surface ;-) that doesn't seem to be much of a feat, but, the it is a fiberglass touring boat, with a seat, not a saddle. the seat ripped out on the first try. the second try was just the hull & thwarts, kneeling on a foam pad [glued to hull]. as we could see the paddle, and hand positions there wasn't any trickery, just a very slow rollup, with the hip snap. impressive. will you die if you can't roll? in some situations, yes. will you ever encounter those situations? you must make a very careful decision there... once in the middle of the atlantic, during a hurricane, i saw the flight deck of an aircraft acrrier get washed by waves!! mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index of Paddling websites I manage] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page -- Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. --Pablo Picasso *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 99-05-12 07:47:31 EDT, you write: << About a quarter of this group could be described as seniors and they paddle on calm rivers and lakes within a couple hundred metres of shore, in good conditions. >> John - Be careful how you characterize people :-) . I'll be 65 in a couple of months, and I paddle in a moderate sized lake (1.5 40 mi) all months of the year, and also do open ocean paddling quite often, up to Beaufort 5 conditions. If more than that is expected, I try really hard not to be on the water.. Like one or two others in the group, my joy is in the paddling; I don't seek out storms, or ice, or darkness, etc etc etc.... I have an essentially bomb-proof roll on my left, and an almost bomb-proof roll on my right. I do practice paddle-float rescues (*also* practice the outrigger rescue, Matt) and also re-entry and roll, and I practice those things often. I can do them in Bft 5 conditions. So far I haven't felt the need for anything more than a hand-held pump, but I have to admit that the discussions this year have gotten me interested in adding either an electric pump or a foot pump to one of my boats. Laughing - Bill *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On May 12, 20:40, Greg Hollingsworth wrote: } Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Roll or Die? > > Rolling is not really a necessary skill for a Klepper paddler, wouldn't > > you agree? > > I guess, if you paddle the Klepper on a small pond in your backyard... > > Seriously, it depends on the conditions that you expect (or don't > expect) to encounter. Are you saying that a Klepper is so stable that > it will <never ever> tip? If you tip, then a roll is the best method to > recover. I can't imagine that a Klepper (or any other boat) is > tip-proof given the right conditions. Around here thunderstorms arrive > with little advance warning, I've seen dead calm conditions turn into > 40-50 MPH gusts in a matter of minutes. > > Rolling is easy <and> fun to learn. Anybody can do it!! It's not easy and fun to learn in every boat, though. Ok, hands up. How many people here have actually rolled a Klepper? Anyone? If so, I want to hear your opinion about rolling a Klepper in case of an accidental capsize in rough conditions. -- Bob Myers InteleNet Communications, Inc. Email: bob_at_InteleNet.net 18101 Von Karman Avenue, Suite 550 Phone: 949-851-8250 x227 Irvine, CA 92612 Fax: 949-851-1088 http://www.intelenet.net/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Bob Myers wrote: >It's not easy and fun to learn in every boat, though. > >Ok, hands up. How many people here have actually rolled a Klepper? >Anyone? If so, I want to hear your opinion about rolling a Klepper >in case of an accidental capsize in rough conditions. Never been in a Klepper that I can remember. I have, however rolled an 18 foot aluminum Grumman canoe which can't be much easier. No floatation in it, so I was full of water, but upright at the end which counted (on a $25 bet). In the standing waves at the bottom of a class three rapids. Dunno if that qualifies as "rough conditions" or not..... Hank Hays Ex-decked C-1 paddler *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
OK, I once rolled a double Klepper with a friend twice in a row, but it was sort of a joke for us and a demo at the symposium. The fully loaded Kleppers we toured in Baja would be hard pressed to flip, and impossible to roll as we sat on our stuff. You could probably roll a single in some situations.. Andree Hurley Hurley Design Communications - ICQ# 27469637 Web Sites for Specialty Businesses - http://www.viewit.com/HDC/ Kayaking - http://www.viewit.com/KIX/ http://www.viewit.com/wtr/kayak.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> Are you saying that a Klepper is so stable that > it will <never ever> tip? If you tip, then a roll is the best method to > recover. I can't imagine that a Klepper (or any other boat) is > tip-proof given the right conditions. Obviously no kayak is tip-proof. But if you've never been in a Klepper tandem in large swell, you might be surprised how stable it feels. With paddlers of moderate or better skills, it's about as close to tip-proof as kayaks get. I haven't done extensive tests, but in terms of the subjective feel, it's almost a different order of stability from any other kayak I've ever been in. I have been in situations where I've felt we had no right to stay upright, but we did! Cheers, Jim *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:32:59 PDT