Dave wrote; (SNIP) >I agree, in rough conditions, the paddle float is questionable. The >reality is that only a small percentage of the paddlers I see on the water >engage the sea in conditions where a paddle float will not work. The float >is a good choice for them. It does not "... entice them into conditions >where it won't work," (paraphrasing) because most of them are **terrified** >of rough water and won't paddle in it. They stay on the beach, or get the >hell off the water when it gets rough. I have a bit of trouble with this. How can a safety device that purports to make paddling safer not entice people to take additional risks? In my survey of paddlers many said that the presence of a safety device would not entice them to increase their risk but then only a couple of questions later would tell how they would never take a particular risk without a particular safety device. Sounds a bit contradictory to me. The purveyors of most safety equipment advertise how much safer using their wares will make us. If they don't make us safer, why do people insist on using them in conditions where they would not paddle without them? Why do you learn to roll? Because you will be able to get right side up after a capsize. Why do you capsize? Because you might get caught in conditions you can't handle. Why did you get caught in conditions you can't handle? Duhhhhhhhh Sounds like a circular and illogical argument to me. "I use all this gear and learn all these skills so I can paddle in conditions where I might have to use them but no, I would never take any additional risks just because I had a piece of gear or a skill." Meanwhile back at the beach the wimps won't go out because they fear the rough water which explains why they have their paddle floats because you never can tell when you will trip over a bottle of Montepulciano Abruzzo and need to claw your way back to the surface. ;-) Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:41 AM 5/12/99 -0400, John Winters wrote: >Dave wrote; > > > >(SNIP) > > >>I agree, in rough conditions, the paddle float is questionable. The >>reality is that only a small percentage of the paddlers I see on the water >>engage the sea in conditions where a paddle float will not work. The >float >>is a good choice for them. It does not "... entice them into conditions >>where it won't work," (paraphrasing) because most of them are >**terrified** >>of rough water and won't paddle in it. They stay on the beach, or get the >>hell off the water when it gets rough. > >I have a bit of trouble with this. How can a safety device that purports >to make paddling safer not entice people to take additional risks? In my >survey of paddlers many said that the presence of a safety device would not >entice them to increase their risk but then only a couple of questions >later would tell how they would never take a particular risk without a >particular safety device. Sounds a bit contradictory to me. > >The purveyors of most safety equipment advertise how much safer using their >wares will make us. If they don't make us safer, why do people insist on >using them in conditions where they would not paddle without them? > >Why do you learn to roll? Because you will be able to get right side up >after a capsize. Why do you capsize? Because you might get caught in >conditions you can't handle. Why did you get caught in conditions you can't >handle? Duhhhhhhhh > >Sounds like a circular and illogical argument to me. > >"I use all this gear and learn all these skills so I can paddle in >conditions where I might have to use them but no, I would never take any >additional risks just because I had a piece of gear or a skill." > >Meanwhile back at the beach the wimps won't go out because they fear the >rough water which explains why they have their paddle floats because you >never can tell when you will trip over a bottle of Montepulciano Abruzzo >and need to claw your way back to the surface. ;-) > >Cheers, >John Winters >Redwing Designs >Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft >http://home.ican.net/~735769/ > John I kind of agree with you , buuuut think it is the unfamiliar or unknown that gets them. When teaching people how to paddle thru surf , getting out or in, they are almost always amazed that it is not as hard as it seemed standing on the beach. Also one paddler that is a rolling fool and paddles going up, down, up, down rolling as he paddles was in the ocean with me about a half mile or so out and I asked him to roll and he looked at me like I am crazy, which I am if I don't take my medicine, and would not try it till I did then it was up, down, up, down rolling the rest of the paddle. We talked about it and even though this paddler is a good roller in lakes and rivers he was unsure about the different surroundings and never doing it in the ocean before ,all the safety equipment we had with us still did not change that. Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote... > Why do you learn to roll? Because you will be able to get right side up > after a capsize. Why do you capsize? Because you might get caught in > conditions you can't handle. Why did you get caught in conditions you > can't handle? Duhhhhhhhh I don't know about this attitude. The open sea is always capable of producing a wave that can dump you without warning, learning to roll is simply an adaptation to allow the paddler to recover afterwards. > "I use all this gear and learn all these skills so I can paddle in > conditions where I might have to use them but no, I would never take any > additional risks just because I had a piece of gear or a skill." Whether it is circular or not depends on the objective of the paddler. I got a kayak so that I could pursue open ocen fishing according to my own particular and unique ethics of sportsmanship. But just having a kayak and a paddle does not imply that I have everything I need to go 10 miles offshore and drop a frozen mullet overboard. There is a lot of skill and knowledge that first needs to be acquired, such as rolling, diving, surf entry and exit, navigation, general seamanship, etc. Once these have been achieved, *THEN* does the kayak and paddle go from a small lake putt-about, to an open ocean boat. So yes, I learn to roll so that I can paddle in places which might require me to roll. I would also not likely take any ADDITIONAL risk just because I have a skill or piece of gear. It just happens that my base level of risk includes situations where a large wave could come out of nowhere and dump me upside down. I would just prefer to have the option of counting to 30 and then rolling up. Richard Walker Houston, TX http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I gotta agree 100% with Tim on this one. *Whatever* you think, learning to deal with the 360 degree circle that is centered on your belly button <or so> is the essence of boat TILT <and hull control>. To paddle the boat flat takes balance and an elementary knowledge of TILT. To edge the boat and turn <carve> takes a bit more of an understanding of TILT. To feel comfortable with passing the PONR <point of no return> and rolling over, then back up takes a complete understanding. Tim is just saying that any kayaker worth his salt should have a *bombproof* understanding of this concept. It's not just for the 180 degrees above the surface!! ;^) Steve Scherrer Alder Creek Kayak and Canoe 250 NE Tomahawk Isle Dr Portland, Oregon 97217 Phone: 503.285.0464 Fax: 503.285.0106 Web: http://www.aldercreek.com Email: aldercreek_at_aldercreek.com Email: acks_at_teleport.com On Wed, 12 May 1999 15:06:20 -0700 "Mattson, Timothy G" <timothy.g.mattson_at_intel.com commented on [Paddlewise] Paddle floats >>Oh, this is fun. I just love our rolling discussions. John made a comment in his last post I just have to respond to... Why do you learn to roll? Because you will be able to get right side up after a capsize. Why do you capsize? Because you might get caught in conditions you can't handle. Why did you get caught in conditions you can't handle? Duhhhhhhhh I learn to roll because its fun. I would still roll even if all I paddled in was perfectly flat, calm water. I dispute your claim that the roll is needed because you find yourself in conditions you can't handle. A capsize doesn't mean the general conditions are beyond your ability to control the boat. If this is what you belive, John, then you are seriously mistaken about the role of rolling. The roll lets me play with conditions that I would otherwise have to paddle in survival mode. A capsize doesn't always mean you can't handle the conditions . It means an isolated event caught you off gaurd. It means you tried to put the kayak into a weird position that didn't quite work (eg. an ender or a flat spin). As long as the conditions don't prevent you from rolling and you're in control, you can handle the conditions --- even if they regularly cause you to capsize. The best example of this is the surf zone. If I didn't have the roll, the surf zone would be a place to avoid. If I had to spend time in the surf, it would be to launch and land as quickly as possible. But because of the roll, I can go out and play in the surf. Sure it flips me quite a bit (I never said I was any good at surfing), but I just pop back up and go out for more. Just because I flip when I surf doesn't mean I can't handle the surf conditions. By having a roll, I lean that much harder when I carve turns. I can head into a tide rip and play 'cause I know if I make a mistake and flip, I can pop right back up. I can aggressively use sculling and draw strokes and not worry about the consequences of a mistake. Rolling lets me more fully experience paddling. Its a liberating skill that opens up huge opportunities for more fulfilling paddling. - --Tim *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 18:34:29 -0400 > From: dldecker_at_se.mediaone.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddle floats > > John I kind of agree with you , buuuut think it is the unfamiliar or > unknown that gets them. When teaching people how to paddle thru surf , > getting out or in, they are almost always amazed that it is not as hard as > it seemed standing on the beach. Also one paddler that is a rolling fool > and paddles going up, down, up, down rolling as he paddles was in the > ocean with me about a half mile or so out and I asked him to roll and he > looked at me like I am crazy, which I am if I don't take my medicine, and > would not try it till I did then it was up, down, up, down rolling the rest > of the paddle. We talked about it and even though this paddler is a good > roller in lakes and rivers he was unsure about the different surroundings > and never doing it in the ocean before ,all the safety equipment we had > with us still did not change that. > > Dana One word.... marine-mandibularphobia :-) Jackie _ _ / \O/ \ " _ _ / \O/ \ " ______ /\ ~~~~~~~~(__\/__)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/~~\~~~~~~~~~/\~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ o /{ }\ ,,___,~~~~""' `"""""""' `~~~~.__ o o /} \{_xx_}/ <, ~_at_ ``~~.__/ } o \ c `vvvvvvvv, )))) o __ ( ( .7 ^^^^^^" ___.~~'' \ } ~" `~~~~~~~~\ )~~~~~~~~''''' o \} o \_/ o o O< --- o ---- >O O< ----- ---- >O o o o O< --- ---- >O O< ---- ---- >O *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
(SNIP) > >I learn to roll because its fun. I would still roll even if all I paddled >in was perfectly flat, calm water. Do you feel you represent the typical kayaker on this? > >I dispute your claim that the roll is needed because you find yourself in >conditions you can't handle. A capsize doesn't mean the general conditions >are beyond your ability to control the boat. If this is what you belive, >John, then you are seriously mistaken about the role of rolling. I made no such claim. Participants on this list have repeatedly pointed out the danger of not being able to roll. I have echoed those comments. I wonder if your attitude (as admirable as it may be) reflects the reason why most people learn to roll. If so, then learning to roll can hardly be seen as essential to sea kayaking since most people don't paddle in the conditions you mentioned. Correct me if I error but are you saying the roll is not a rescue technique for accidental capsizes? >The roll lets me play with conditions that I would otherwise have to paddle >in survival mode. A capsize doesn't always mean you can't handle the >conditions . It means an isolated event caught you off gaurd. It means you >tried to put the kayak into a weird position that didn't quite work (eg. an >ender or a flat spin). As long as the conditions don't prevent you from >rolling and you're in control, you can handle the conditions --- even if >they regularly cause you to capsize. Do you feel you represent the typical kayaker on this? (SNIP) >By having a roll, I lean that much harder when I carve turns. I can head >into a tide rip and play 'cause I know if I make a mistake and flip, I can >pop right back up. I can aggressively use sculling and draw strokes and not >worry about the consequences of a mistake. Rolling lets me more fully >experience paddling. Its a liberating skill that opens up huge >opportunities for more fulfilling paddling. Good for you but do you feel you represent the typical kayaker on this? My point seems to have gotten obscured. Do you ever paddle in conditions where you would not paddle unless you had a rescue skill or rescue gear? Would you refuse to paddle in higher risk conditions if you did not have the gear? Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > ...<snip>... > Do you ever paddle in conditions where you would not paddle unless you had > a rescue skill or rescue gear? > > Would you refuse to paddle in higher risk conditions if you did not have > the gear? Yes to all of the above. This is entirely rational (so long as I don't misinterpret the risk). One doesn't learn how to roll, brace, etc. to be able to paddle more safely in a pool or on a mill pond. The same applies to equipment. Without a spray skirt I would not venture out into whitewater or wind waves or surf. The fundamental purpose of skills (such as rolling) and equipment (such as spray skirts) is to allow one to extend one's range more safely than would be possible without such skills and equipment. The purpose is *not* to allow one to be able to paddle in difficult conditions as safely as one could paddle in the pool. Of course there is an increase in risk in paddling in difficult conditions, even with the skills and equipment. But the goal is to optimize risk, not to minimize risk. I have never felt that manufacturers of spray skirts or helmets are trying to mislead me into thinking that it is as safe to paddle whitewater with their equipment as it is to paddle in the pool without it. In fact a lable in my Lidds helmet states that even with their helmet, an impact may result "in head or spinal injury and death". (Of course I knew this without reading the label.) You seem to be implying that paddlers are lulled into thinking that such equipment makes paddling "safe". In those cases where paddlers underestimate the risk we have a "safety problem". But the fact that some paddlers choose to take on greater risks because of their skills and equipment is not by itself evidence of a problem. Not all risk is irrational. Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dana wrote; (SNIP) > >John I kind of agree with you , buuuut think it is the unfamiliar or >unknown that gets them. (SNIP) Absolutely. I would suggest that the unfamiliar by definition implies greater risk. Sometimes one perceives greater risk than exists (as in your example) but sometimes the risk it is quite real. I think the term novice kind of implies "unfamiliarity" or unknown. We have read here many times how some paddlers continually expand the envelope. In a manner of speaking they search for the unfamiliar and unknown. One has to ask if they would take this approach if they had to paddle without safety equipment, If not, then the premise that people take increased risk because of their equipment holds true and by extension one has to have concern for those paddlers who trust in their equipment etc. without having had sufficient experience to appropriately judge their safety. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Richard wrote; (SNIP) I don't know about this attitude. The open sea is always capable of producing a wave that can dump you without warning, learning to roll is simply an adaptation to allow the paddler to recover afterwards. Absolutely. Does not paddling in the open ocean constitute increased risk? If so, would you paddle in the open ocean without knowing how to roll? > "I use all this gear and learn all these skills so I can paddle in > conditions where I might have to use them but no, I would never take any > additional risks just because I had a piece of gear or a skill." Interesting comment. You learn the skills and carry the gear so you can paddle in conditions that pose more risk that you would paddle in otherwise and yet you do not perceive this as added risk. (SNIP) So yes, I learn to roll so that I can paddle in places which might require me to roll. I would also not likely take any ADDITIONAL risk just because I have a skill or piece of gear. It just happens that my base level of risk includes situations where a large wave could come out of nowhere and dump me upside down. I would just prefer to have the option of counting to 30 and then rolling up. I guess I don't get the point here. Would you paddle in those conditions if you could not roll? If not, does not your ability to roll make it possible to to paddle at your base level of risk. In other words, is not your base level of risk contingent upon being able to roll? Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
From: "John Winters" <735769_at_ican.net> >> So yes, I learn to roll so that I can paddle in places which might >> require me to roll. I would also not likely take any ADDITIONAL >> risk just because I have a skill or piece of gear. It just happens >> that my base level of risk includes situations where a large wave >> could come out of nowhere and dump me upside down. I would >> just prefer to have the option of counting to 30 and then rolling up. > > I guess I don't get the point here. Would you paddle in those conditions > if you could not roll? If not, does not your ability to roll make it > possible to to paddle at your base level of risk. In other words, is not > your base level of risk contingent upon being able to roll? If I had been unable to learn to roll, I probably would have sold the kayak, and gone and done something else. I bought the kayak for a specific purpose, if I was unable to learn the skills required for that purpose, keeping the kayak would be a waste of money. My base level of risk is contingent upon a LOT of skills, not just rollilng. Everything from being able to steer a course on compass, to map reading, to rolling, to being able to equilize my ears on fast descents and ascents for freediving. Also a little engineering was required, in figuring a good way to mount GPS and sonar/fishfinder electronics. On the other end, being able to cast a fly, drag a spoon, use a castnet, shoot a shotgun and bow, and throw a spear while sitting in the kayak were also required skills inorder to make the puzzle complete. [I haven't got the bow/shotgun puzzle learned yet...] Basically, my kayaking is oriented towards being able to fish or hunt, without the application of any motorized power from the beginning of the hunt/fish trip to the end. Richard Walker Houston, TX http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Lets say as a novice padder with a paddling skill factor of 1, I paddle in conditions A with a risk factor of 1. Now I get a paddle float so my skills factor increases to 2 and I start paddling in conditions B with a risk factor of 2. Next I learn to roll, raising my skill factor to 3, and now I venture out in conditions C with a risk factor of 3. If, as a novice, I paddle 100% of the time in condition A when I have a skill factor of 1 my overall risk could be expressed: Overall Risk = (Risk Factor * Time Factor) / Skill Factor (1 * 1.00)/1 = 1 If I learn to roll and spend all my time in the worst conditions I can safely handle : (3 * 1.00)/3 = 1 So the risk remains the same. But people do not spend all their time in the worst conditions they can safely handle. They probably spend at least half the time in pretty benign conditions. A B C (1 * 0.5)/3 + (2 * 0.25)/3 + (3 * 0.25)/3 = .58 So the overall risk is decreased by increasing your skill factor. You can even afford to go into conditions beyond you skill and still be safer than the novice. How's that for some pseudoscientific mumbo-jumbo? Disclaimer: The risk and skill level values are just given as examples. They are not meant to correspond to any physical reality. :-) Nick >>I agree, in rough conditions, the paddle float is questionable. The >>reality is that only a small percentage of the paddlers I see on the water >>engage the sea in conditions where a paddle float will not work. The >float >>is a good choice for them. It does not "... entice them into conditions >>where it won't work," (paraphrasing) because most of them are >**terrified** >>of rough water and won't paddle in it. They stay on the beach, or get the >>hell off the water when it gets rough. > >I have a bit of trouble with this. How can a safety device that purports >to make paddling safer not entice people to take additional risks? In my >survey of paddlers many said that the presence of a safety device would not >entice them to increase their risk but then only a couple of questions >later would tell how they would never take a particular risk without a >particular safety device. Sounds a bit contradictory to me. > >The purveyors of most safety equipment advertise how much safer using their >wares will make us. If they don't make us safer, why do people insist on >using them in conditions where they would not paddle without them? > >Why do you learn to roll? Because you will be able to get right side up >after a capsize. Why do you capsize? Because you might get caught in >conditions you can't handle. Why did you get caught in conditions you can't >handle? Duhhhhhhhh > >Sounds like a circular and illogical argument to me. > >"I use all this gear and learn all these skills so I can paddle in >conditions where I might have to use them but no, I would never take any >additional risks just because I had a piece of gear or a skill." > >Meanwhile back at the beach the wimps won't go out because they fear the >rough water which explains why they have their paddle floats because you >never can tell when you will trip over a bottle of Montepulciano Abruzzo >and need to claw your way back to the surface. ;-) Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 10 Ash Swamp Rd Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
---------- > From: R. Walker <rww_at_mailbox.neosoft.com> --snip-- > I got a kayak so that I could pursue open ocen fishing > according to my own particular and unique ethics of > sportsmanship. --snip-- Hey Richard: When reading you post about the importance of being able to roll, I had the oddest vision come to mind -- deep water kayak sport fishing -- all you need is a kayak, a skirt, a paddle, a roll, and sharp teeth -- sortta like a coastal version of inland apple bobbing. Cheers, Richard Culpeper www.geocities.com/~culpeper *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:58 AM 5/13/99 -0400, Richard Culpeper wrote: > > >---------- >> From: R. Walker <rww_at_mailbox.neosoft.com> >--snip-- >> I got a kayak so that I could pursue open ocen fishing >> according to my own particular and unique ethics of >> sportsmanship. >--snip-- > >Hey Richard: > >When reading you post about the importance of being able to roll, I had the >oddest vision come to mind -- deep water kayak sport fishing -- all you >need is a kayak, a skirt, a paddle, a roll, and sharp teeth -- sortta like >a coastal version of inland apple bobbing. > >Cheers, >Richard Culpeper >www.geocities.com/~culpeper What if what you are bobbing for has BIGGER teeth than you do? is that where a Bomb proof roll come in? Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dan wrote; >> Do you ever paddle in conditions where you would not paddle unless you had >> a rescue skill or rescue gear? >> >> Would you refuse to paddle in higher risk conditions if you did not have >> the gear? > >Yes to all of the above. This is entirely rational (so long as I don't >misinterpret the risk). That, I believe constitutes the meat of my argument. I suspect Dan would never, ever ("Well hardly ever") misinterpret the risk. Others, without his expertise and skill and experience do. Matt's book has lots of examples. One might even say that most accidents (but without authority) result from misinterpreting risk. In Dan's case, where he has a wealth of experience and knowledge to support his decision, the added risk fits his paddling profile.The mistake here involves assuming that Dan represents any but the most experienced level of paddler. Dan's response to the questions seems perfectly acceptable but imagine a less experienced paddler providing the same answers. Then we might pass along to imagine Dan actually making a mistake and then reassess his answers. The Extrasport advertisement that I have included in my web site provides good examples of people who errored in assessing the danger and their abilities. >The purpose is *not* to allow one to be able to >paddle in difficult conditions as safely as one could paddle in the >pool. Of course there is an increase in risk in paddling in difficult >conditions, even with the skills and equipment. But the goal is to >optimize risk, not to minimize risk. (SNIP) I cannot recall saying or implying this. Perhpas I failed to make myself clear. My point had to do with unrealistic assumptions of safety. Dan hits the nail on the head. I believe I made this point (optimizing risk) some time back and supported it with Gerald Wilde's (and others) research. My comments apply to those who assume greater safety than reality provides. I suspect most of the better paddlers here have paddled with people who fit the profile. I know Richard Culpeper has pulled a lot of them out of the water. (SNIP) >But the fact that some paddlers choose to take >on greater risks because of their skills and equipment is not by itself >evidence of a problem. Not all risk is irrational. Absolutely, Some time back I made the point that human nature favored risk. At no time have I implied that all risk was irrational. However, when a paddler chooses to take on more risk (non-optimization) than he should it does indicate a problem. Dr. Wilde provides more than a few examples of how people fail to optimize their risk. Most often the non-optimization stems from inflated impressions of safety whether from careless instruction or inflated claims of safety. My concerns have nothing to do with those who do everything correctly but with those who mislead themselves or get misled. Nick wrote; >But people do not spend all their time in the worst conditions they can >safely handle. They probably spend at least half the time in pretty benign >conditions. But what happens during the other half? All that time spent in benign conditions may lure people into that false sense of security that eventually gets them into trouble especially when things start out benign and turn nasty. Matt's book has plenty of examples of that. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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