Dave Kruger wrote >That would be MEK: methyl ethyl ketone. Lacquer thinner should work just as >well. Don't know if its been suggested yet but I was told that the glue used by plumbers for PVC pipe should work on polythene - haven't tried it myself - probably wise to try it on scrap polythene first. PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>....... There's a solvent with a 3 letter acronym beginning with 'M' >that will clean the area to be glued without melting the boat. Can't >remember the other 2 letters, but it was recommened by Dagger and I >bought it at Home Depot. Might be worthwhile to check with your >boat's mfgr just to be safe. Be VERY careful with this stuff. That's MEK for Methyl Ethyl Ketone. Always use this in well ventilated areas, preferably outdoors and upwind of it. It will melt ABS, and I've seen situations where someone cleaned an area with MEK, slapped on the D ring patch and a week later had the outer hull begin to melt because some of the mek had absorbed into the abs and had nowhere to evaporate to... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Be VERY careful with this stuff. That's MEK for Methyl Ethyl Ketone. >Always use this in well ventilated areas, preferably outdoors and upwind of >it. It will melt ABS, and I've seen situations where someone cleaned an >area with MEK, slapped on the D ring patch and a week later had the outer >hull begin to melt because some of the mek had absorbed into the abs and had >nowhere to evaporate to... What about acetone? Isn't that di-methyl ketone? Robert *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Be VERY careful with this stuff. That's MEK for Methyl Ethyl Ketone. >Always use this in well ventilated areas, preferably outdoors and upwind of >it. It will melt ABS, and I've seen situations where someone cleaned an >area with MEK, slapped on the D ring patch and a week later had the outer >hull begin to melt because some of the mek had absorbed into the abs and had >nowhere to evaporate to... Let me add that it is also even more flamable than gasoline so be very careful. Matt Broze > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
i think this is another good test for Steve Jernigan ;-) At 09:42 7/10/99 +1000, Peter Osman <PeterO_at_ambri.com.au> wrote: >Dave Kruger wrote >>That would be MEK: methyl ethyl ketone. Lacquer thinner should work just >>as well. > >Don't know if its been suggested yet but I was told that the glue used by >plumbers for PVC pipe should work on polythene - haven't tried it myself - >probably wise to try it on scrap polythene first. #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index of Paddling websites I manage] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page -- Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. --Pablo Picasso *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 06:15 PM 7/9/99 +0000, Mark Zen wrote: >i think this is another good test for Steve Jernigan ;-) > >At 09:42 7/10/99 +1000, Peter Osman <PeterO_at_ambri.com.au> wrote: >>Dave Kruger wrote >>>That would be MEK: methyl ethyl ketone. Lacquer thinner should work just >>>as well. >> >>Don't know if its been suggested yet but I was told that the glue used by >>plumbers for PVC pipe should work on polythene - haven't tried it myself - >>probably wise to try it on scrap polythene first. Hi Mark et al! Well, I was just re-routing some acid waste lines the other day, now where'd I put the cement . . . Hmmmm! Contains Tetrahydrofuran, MEK, Cyclohexanone, PVC. Pretty toxic. I really think this stuff works by softening the surface of the PVC pipe / socket which then become as one once the solvents evaporate, but here goes nothing. A dab here, a dab there, slap 'em together . . . Now if this had been two slabs of PVC rather than a couple of Nalgene squirt bottles they would now be inseparable, but the nalgene isn't even getting sticky. Lets try a little clamping action . . . Later. The cement has dried and left a film which can be peeled off easily, and resembles plastic-wrap (figures; PVC in the cement). Didn't even touch the Nalgene bottles, and the strength of the bond between the surfaces is about what it takes to peel off the film; practically nil. I'm not even gonna bother roughing up the surfaces on this one. Now I can hear you saying "But wait! 'Em are Nalgene bottles what are designed to be resistant to various and sundry chemicals, not plastic boats!", and you are quite correct. In anticipation of this I tried the experiment using a bit of poly welding rod with the same results. Polyethylene be tough stuff; you guys sure that's what those boats are made of? The chemical compatibility chart in my Fluoroware catalog, under HDPE (high density polyethylene) sez "NO" to concentrated sulfuric acid, fuming nitric acid, toluene, isooctane, aniline, tetrahydrofuran, acetone, benzaldehyde, cyclohexane, MEK, methylene chloride, perchloroethylene, TCE, and carbon tetrachloride. Now some of these are in the PVC cement, and we have already seen how little that affected the poly. Neither did the acetone, xylene, or TCE I had available, at least not with any vigor. In fact, I can't recall ever seeing anything get after poly in a hurry, although I have seen nitric acid cause it to turn brown and brittle over time. We use some poly sinks, but those are welded rather than glued. Have to pass that question on to Dave K. Dave, do you know of any aggressive solvent for polyethylene? Another thought; (I can see you cringing now!) perhaps a solvent in conjunction with heating the surface to nearly the flow temperature of the plastic? Or why not bypass the entire problem and use an aluminum pop-rivet or two? Here then is another consideration, however trivial, for the plastic vs composite argument: I don't have any problems at all getting glue to stick to my kevlar hulls :-) Oh well, enough amateur chemistry for today; my office stinks, and one of our researchers just managed to melt the e-beam evaporation source. Sigh. Looks like it's gonna be "one of those days" ByeBye! S. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve Jernigan wrote: > Hi Mark et al! > Well, I was just re-routing some acid waste lines the other day, now > where'd I put the cement . . . > Hmmmm! Contains Tetrahydrofuran, MEK, Cyclohexanone, PVC. Pretty toxic. > I really think this stuff works by softening the surface of the PVC pipe / > socket which then become as one once the solvents evaporate, but here goes > nothing. A dab here, a dab there, slap 'em together [snip] Didn't > even touch the Nalgene bottles, and the strength of the bond between the > surfaces is about what it takes to peel off the film; practically nil. [snip] > We use some poly sinks, but those are welded rather than glued. Have > to pass that question on to Dave K. Dave, do you know of any aggressive > solvent for polyethylene? No. About the best you can do (and it would certainly not be good enough for acid waste lines) is make a very rough surface (50 grit) and use contact cement. The mechanical bond which the congealed CC makes onto the strands of PE which intrude into the CC film is all you've got. It ain't much, but it's good enough for low-load, high surface area applications like minicell to PE boats. (Thigh pads, etc.) PE "welding" works on LDPE, IIRC, but I don't think it is very successful on HDPE (Nalgene bottles). -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sat, 10 Jul 1999, Peter Osman wrote: > Don't know if its been suggested yet but I was told that the glue used by > plumbers for PVC pipe should work on polythene - haven't tried it myself - > probably wise to try it on scrap polythene first. Hmm. If you've ever used the stuff on PVC you'll know that it reacts with and softens the plastic. I wouldn't put it on MY boat. e Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Elaine Harmon wrote: > > On Sat, 10 Jul 1999, Peter Osman wrote: > > > Don't know if its been suggested yet but I was told that the glue used by > > plumbers for PVC pipe should work on polythene - haven't tried it myself - > > probably wise to try it on scrap polythene first. > > Hmm. If you've ever used the stuff on PVC you'll know that it reacts with > and softens the plastic. I wouldn't put it on MY boat. The odor of the PVC glue includes the odor of MEK, so I think it has some in it. The glue works in PVC by dissolving a little of the surface of the PVC. When the solvents evaporate, the PVC resolidifies. That's why the joints can withstand the pressure of a household water system. Not to worry about your water pipes turning to jelly! I suspect the PVC glue does NOT dissolve the polyethylene in rotomolded sea kayaks. Any bond it makes must depend on a mechanical adhesion, thus the need to scruff the surface of the polyethylene with 80 grit sandpaper. No need to worry about your polyethylene boat becoming a liquid, because PVC and polyethylene have different dissolving properties. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR sea kayaker chemist *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I was in the hardware store this weekend buying some of that PVC cement to patch vinyl drybags with--yep, PVC pipe and PVC drybags are the same stuff--one is just a bit more flexible. On the rack next to the PVC cement was some cement for PE pipe--polyethylene is sometimes used for drain pipe. It would probably stick great to the plastic, but I couldn't tell you how well it would stick to the minicell. Maybe put PE cement on the boat, and barge/shore/contact cement on the minicell and slam the two together. Shawn Peter Osman wrote: >Don't know if its been suggested yet but I was told that the glue used by >plumbers for PVC pipe should work on polythene - haven't tried it myself - >probably wise to try it on scrap polythene first. > >PeterO 0 ____©/______ ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ Baker Brothers 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ Shawn W. Baker mailto://baker_at_montana.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
One of the things to consider is whether you are looking at an adhesive bond or a cohesive bond. In an adhesive bond, you are using a bonding agent and it attaches to each of the materials in effect bridging them. While in a cohesive bond the bonding agent causes the material to "flow" into the other, much as welding causes to materials to "mix" and forms a direct bond. Solvent based "glues/cements" are typically cohesive bonds. Welding is a cohesive bonding process (although I'm sure some cold welds are so bad as to be adhesive). Glues like superglue, or even Elmers on the other hand are adhesive bonds. Mixing two cohesive bonding agents together for two dissimilar materials is unlikely to get a very good bond. The cements you are talking about, are probably cohesive rather than adhesive. Maybe one of the Chemists in the group can explain this more clearly. -Saul - not a chemist, just a paddler. -----Original Message----- From: Shawn W. Baker <baker_at_montana.com> To: Paddlewise <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Cc: Peter Osman <PeterO_at_ambri.com.au>; Mark Zen <canoeist_at_netbox.com> Date: Monday, July 12, 1999 9:47 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] glue for minicell/polyethylene >I was in the hardware store this weekend buying some of that PVC cement >to patch vinyl drybags with--yep, PVC pipe and PVC drybags are the same >stuff--one is just a bit more flexible. > >On the rack next to the PVC cement was some cement for PE >pipe--polyethylene is sometimes used for drain pipe. It would probably >stick great to the plastic, but I couldn't tell you how well it would >stick to the minicell. Maybe put PE cement on the boat, and >barge/shore/contact cement on the minicell and slam the two together. > >Shawn > >Peter Osman wrote: >>Don't know if its been suggested yet but I was told that the glue used by >>plumbers for PVC pipe should work on polythene - haven't tried it myself - >>probably wise to try it on scrap polythene first. >> >>PeterO > 0 > ____©/______ >~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ >Baker Brothers 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ >Shawn W. Baker mailto://baker_at_montana.com >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Saul Kinderis wrote: > > One of the things to consider is whether you are looking at an adhesive bond > or a cohesive bond. In an adhesive bond, you are using a bonding agent and > it attaches to each of the materials in effect bridging them. While in a > cohesive bond the bonding agent causes the material to "flow" into the > other, much as welding causes to materials to "mix" and forms a direct bond. [snip] Good job, Saul, of illuminating what we technodweebs made obscure. The trick is in knowing when cohesion is possible, and with which solvent. And, the same goes for adhesion, and which adhesive can adhere to dissimilar materials. Sad to say, much of the time the an adhesive approach depends on mechanical adherence to one or both of the materials to be joined, because the adhesive does not bond chemically to the molecules in the material(s) to be joined. (Exception: successive layers of the same stuff before the surface becomes "inactive:" Weldwood Contact Cement, for example, is typically used in two layers, the first to make a mechanical bond to each material, and the succeeding layer to make an active surface on each material, which bonds to itself when the materials are joined. In my experience, most such joints fail in the mechanical part, delaminating from one or the other of the surfaces. Polyethylene-WWCC adherence almost always fails this way, but not until a "high" load (for the usual PE/minicell applications, anyway) is placed across the joint.) (Not connected to the Weldwood folks, just a satisfied user. This stuff does well in many "low-load" applications, and is considerably cheaper than many of the specialty adhesives sold for marine use. Use in a very well-ventilated area!) -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dear Paddlewisers, I don't at present have a use for glue for my kayak, but I'm interested in this discussion because in my work as a play therapist with children, I'm frequently needing a good glue to bond broken parts of plastic toys. Does anyone have any ideas about which would be best? Super glue doesn't work too well: it just breaks again. Something that changes the chemical composition of the plastic seems that it would be best. BijiliE *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It depends on the plastic. You'll get the best results if you know what type of plastic it is - some of the choices are Polyethylene, Polypropylene, PolyVinylChloride (PVC), Acryl...But..Styrene (ABS) - in case you can't tell the last time I had a plastics course was over 20 years ago in college (I was a business major, so it was an elective). I remember that I had a pretty good book - I keep it at my office - that listed many different plastics, how to test to determine which one it is using fairly low tech tools (usually your hands, your eyes, and a few solvents) and how to bond them. I suspect that most Engineering libraries would have such a book, and with a little reading you'll understand how things work and you be able to pick the proper bonding agent for a particular job. Good Luck & Happy Paddling - Saul -----Original Message----- From: BijiliE_at_aol.com <BijiliE_at_aol.com> To: dkruger_at_pacifier.com <dkruger_at_pacifier.com>; paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Monday, July 12, 1999 11:37 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] glue for minicell/polyethylene >Dear Paddlewisers, > >I don't at present have a use for glue for my kayak, but I'm interested in >this discussion because in my work as a play therapist with children, I'm >frequently needing a good glue to bond broken parts of plastic toys. Does >anyone have any ideas about which would be best? Super glue doesn't work too >well: it just breaks again. Something that changes the chemical composition >of the plastic seems that it would be best. > >BijiliE >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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