Bob Myers sent the below URL to me. The LA Times newspaper article describes how a 16 year old girl was drowned on the Chatooga River where, after six weeks, her body still remains following several attempts to retrieve her body from the river. Her father insists on retrieving the body asap and attempts to do so have apparently put other lives at risk. According to the article, Buzz Williams, a former guide who now heads the Chattooga River Watershed Coalition, received a letter from Senator Strom Thurmond (R-S.C.) stating that if the river is so unsafe that rescuers could not reach Rachel then maybe it's time to declare the river off-limits. There is ongoing debate over whether or not the Forest Service has the legal right to alter the river to retrieve the body (according to Williams, the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act says the river shall not be altered and is concerned that this may set a precedent for altering the course of the river). The recent activities permitted by the Forest Service in spite of the Act, coupled with Thurmond's letter has caused considerable conern. The drowning incident is tragic but the implications of the possible outcome surrounding the retrieval efforts are disturbing. I'm passing this on to interested parties in South Carolina (or anyone else, for that matter) that might wish to write the Senator. Other than this article, I have no more details. If someone local to the area who happens to be knowledgeable of this incident finds that the information from this articles is not accurate, please post here (I'm somewhat skeptical when it comes to newspaper articles...). Thanks. The newspaper article can be found at: http://latimes.com/HOME/NEWS/ASECTION/t000062806.html Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi- been reading about this in rec.boats.paddle (incidentally, rec.boats.paddle.touring was just voted in and will start up in a week or so). That kid was NOT A BOATER but a hiker who was wading and fell in. We should all email Strom Thurmond and bitch (or something). Why not just put signs up whereever hiking paths come up to rivers? e Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Elaine Harmon wrote: > > Hi- been reading about this in rec.boats.paddle. That kid was NOT A BOATER but a hiker who was wading and fell in. > > We should all email Strom Thurmond and bitch (or something). Why not just > put signs up whereever hiking paths come up to rivers? Mainly because this is a National Wild and Scenic River. You don't put structures in W&SR corridors. Also, wading across a river upstream of a Class IV rapid is perhaps not the safest approach to crossing a river. A very sad situation. Steve Test Scoring and Reporting Services University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-5593 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jackie Fenton wrote: > > Bob Myers sent the below URL to me. The LA Times newspaper article > describes how a 16 year old girl was drowned on the Chatooga River > where, after six weeks, her body still remains following several > attempts to retrieve her body from the river. <snip> > There is ongoing debate over whether > or not the Forest Service has the legal right to alter the river > to retrieve the body (according to Williams, the Wild and Scenic Rivers > Act says the river shall not be altered and is concerned that this > may set a precedent for altering the course of the river). <snip> > I'm passing this on to > interested parties in South Carolina (or anyone else, for that matter) > that might wish to write the Senator. Other than this article, I have > no more details. If someone local to the area who happens to be > knowledgeable of this incident finds that the information from this > articles is not accurate, please post here (I'm somewhat skeptical when > it comes to newspaper articles...). Thanks. > The article is consistent with local reports. Portadam brought in a temporary dam, carried into the wilderness area by 30 convicts from a local prison. Unfortunately, the attempt coincided with a couple of days of rain, and the river rose too high to make it feasible. A major concern is that the attempt will create a greater hazard by leaving bolts in the rocks, or moving a rock and creating a more dangerous hole. This is a constant theme whenever there is a death on the Chatooga (average is 1-2/year): the family of the deceased says "We need to fix the hazard to prevent future deaths." The futility of this should be obvious, especially to sea paddlers. Steve -- Test Scoring and Reporting Services University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-5593 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:56:56 -0400 Chris & Ellen Kohut <chriskayak_at_earthlink.net> writes: <<snip>> > Still, we who venture out into wilderness situations are shocked >to have >to continually learn the lesson that larger cranium capacity and >opposable >thumbs may not be the last word after all. > Perhaps this is what *wilderness* means: Disney didn't draw it. Fellow Paddlewisers ... I too am deeply saddened by the subject situation. My local river claimed a "careless", best friend in July, 1974 and it was late October before we got him out of the water. No whitewater here, just deep and wide. Earlier this week in the same river a "stupid" swimmer sans PFD went down for an extended fish count and has not been recovered yet. Point being, that WHENever and WHEREever carelessness or stupidity meets water ....things can go horribly wrong ...wrong ....WRONG ! I may care, but the river does not. Now, back to being my usual ir-reverent self .....What's the deal with some of ya'll talking about Viking pyrotechnic-burials, or cremation IN YOUR KAYAK, or dumping ashes into some river somewhere in a solemn ceremony ??? ......C'mon, now ! Some of us paddlers live DOWNSTREAM and need all the help we can get on river cleanliness. Hey ...what's this stuff stuck all over my paddleblade anyhow !! 8-) ...adieu .....Peyton (Louisiana) ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
< ......extended *fish* count?........> And also an excellent point Peyton, about overly romanticized notions of disposal of kayaker remains........for an idea of where such a notion might lead if the idea ever caught on like echo boxes in Mexican radio stations, (anyone's who's lived in California knows to what I refer), just look at Mother Ganges. There is a holy town upriver that maintains that to die there frees one from the wheel of re-birth and death. Consequently, everybody's dying to get there. Or getting there to die there. ........(sorry.) The major problem is that wood for funeral pyres is pricey if available at all, and completely out of reach for the poorest of the poor. Still everyone wants to die there. (On one trip to India, I nonchalantly asked my hostess for a *paper* bag for my dirty laundry.........I noted a look that crossed her face of total bewilderment---maybe closer to panic--as if I had asked for Dragon eggs for breakfast........later I realized that even in prosperous Delhi any wood product was a rarity .....I learned later to ask for a plastic bag.....they have plenty of extruded plastic....), the result of this scarcity of wood is that the poor are unceremoniously or no, dumped into the Ganges.......one can imagine the results with the sun of the Gangetic Plain beating down on the bodies........Solution: Introduce turtles to eat the .......um,.... Faithful. That seemed to work for a while..... /Further Problem: Turtles are all but gone as poachers are collecting turtles and eating *them*...... So....if you love Peyton, don't come visit him in your CLC Chesapeake with the front hatch stuffed with South Carolina bottle rockets. Oh yeah, and one more thing....... absolutely no more of you clowns cremated in the Mississippi......it makes the water taste funny. gpwecho_at_juno.com wrote: > On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:56:56 -0400 Chris & Ellen Kohut > <chriskayak_at_earthlink.net> writes: > > <<snip>> > > Still, we who venture out into wilderness situations are shocked > >to have > >to continually learn the lesson that larger cranium capacity and > >opposable > >thumbs may not be the last word after all. > > Perhaps this is what *wilderness* means: Disney didn't draw it. > > Fellow Paddlewisers ... > I too am deeply saddened by the subject situation. My local river > claimed a "careless", best friend in July, 1974 and it was late October > before we got him out of the water. No whitewater here, just deep and > wide. Earlier this week in the same river a "stupid" swimmer sans PFD > went down for an extended fish count and has not been recovered yet. > Point being, that WHENever and WHEREever carelessness or stupidity > meets water ....things can go horribly wrong ...wrong ....WRONG ! I > may care, but the river does not. > > Now, back to being my usual ir-reverent self .....What's the deal > with some of ya'll talking about Viking pyrotechnic-burials, or cremation > IN YOUR KAYAK, or dumping ashes into some river somewhere in a solemn > ceremony ??? ......C'mon, now ! Some of us paddlers live DOWNSTREAM > and need all the help we can get on river cleanliness. Hey ...what's > this stuff stuck all over my paddleblade anyhow !! 8-) > ...adieu .....Peyton (Louisiana) > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 18:19:52 -0400 Chris & Ellen Kohut <chriskayak_at_earthlink.net> writes: <<snip>> >cremated in the Mississippi......it makes the water taste funny. Chris ...thanks for the support in this "upstream issue". The water may taste funny "down here", but I've always heard that it is absolutely essential for a fine cup of cafe au lait .....Perhaps Grandma WAS right , "...stay out of the water, honey !" Gotta go scrub this bathtub ring off my boat from this weekend's paddling ! 8-) ...Peyton (Louisiana) ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
gpwecho_at_juno.com wrote: > > The water may > taste funny "down here", but I've always heard that it is absolutely > essential for a fine cup of cafe au lait I've heard that Mississipi River water is the finest in the world. Why, you can drink it straight down, or let it sit for an hour, drink off the liquid, and eat the rest with a spoon. -- Steve Cramer (I heard it from Mark Twain) Test Scoring and Reporting Services University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-5593 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It seems to me that rather than absolute restrictions with burial in water or cremation and scatter in water always being bad, its more a matter of degree. A lot of animal life is dying in whether the animal happens to be when it dies, and it typically is not a problem. Scavengers strip and eat the remains, and the elements of the body get re-distributed. This helps keep other creatures alive, helping the diversity. The Mother Ganges is extreme example of that system out of balance. There are way more dead humans than any one location can reasonably expect to handle. Does that mean the occasional body lost on the wild and left to decompose or be eaten by scavengers is bad? I don't think so. Dumping tons of ashes in one spot is not going to help that spot. But scattering a little here, a little there, and the system will absorb the ashes just fine. Just as try to scatter our other impacts on the wilderness, selecting different campsites, not leaving any more impact than we absolutely need to. A few kayaks on the water is fine, creating a continuous solid raft of kayaks could start to be in impact on a section of water, and would be less fun. The viking funeral is an interesting idea. I don't think most kayaks have enough fuel mass for a proper cremation, compared to larger boat with thicker planking. There is/was some culture that disposed of its bodies by building a high tower and letting the vultures feed on the body, because to bury the body was to taint the earth, to burn the body was to taint the air, etc Its always sounded the most resonable to me, though probably wouldn't work with the volume of bodies in a large city... dave -- Dave Uebele (daveu_at_sptddog.com) Spotted Dog Systems http://sptddog.com/daveu.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
. . . actually, tossing some ashes in the water is going to have a lot smaller effect on Peyton's water than all that embalming fluid leaching into the groundwater after an in-groundl burial . . . Professor Karl S. Coplan Pace Environmental Litigation Clinic, Inc. 78 North Broadway White Plains, N.Y. 10603 kcoplan_at_genesis.law.pace.edu (914) 422-4343 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 18:19:52 -0400 Chris & Ellen Kohut <chriskayak_at_earthlink.net> writes: <<snip>> Solution: Introduce turtles to eat >the >.......um,.... Faithful. That seemed to work for a while..... >Problem: Turtles are all but gone as poachers are collecting turtles >and >eating *them*...... Chris .....seems to be following a universal credo that goes, "Man does not live by bread alone, but should have a good sauce piquant from time to time" ....or something like that ! Here, as there, turtle ( snappers are my favorite ) goes better with a cold pitcher of draught, and some good friends elbow-to-elbow until it's all gone. .......Peyton "not-a-poacher" (Louisiana) ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 7/19/99 9:47:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, kcoplan_at_Genesis.law.pace.edu writes: << . . . actually, tossing some ashes in the water is going to have a lot smaller effect on Peyton's water than all that embalming fluid leaching into the groundwater after an in-groundl burial . . . >> Actually, maybe someone should throw some ashes in the mississippi cause i just ran out of grits... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Solution: Introduce turtles to eat >>the >>.......um,.... Faithful. That seemed to work for a while..... >>Problem: Turtles are all but gone as poachers are collecting turtles >>and >>eating *them*...... > This strikes a difficult chord with me ( I did a lot of work in Zoology, and now involved with Audubon). Simultaneously I received a copy of a report and an appeal for protection of Asiatic Turtles through CITES and International government agencies concerned with protection of endangered species. Bluntly, The sheer existence of turtles in Asia (as well as most of the rest of the world) is very much in jeopardy. They are being eaten by the Millions in China, the Phillippines, etc. In some cases the known world population of one formerly abundant species is now down to 9 individuals! Scary. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Uebele wrote: > There is/was some culture that disposed of its bodies by > building a high tower and letting the vultures feed on the body, > because to bury the body was to taint the earth, to burn the body > was to taint the air, etc Its always sounded the most > resonable to me, though probably wouldn't work with the volume > of bodies in a large city... That's in India as well. A friend visited such a site and told me about it. The problem is that vultures and other carrion birds feed in the tower and carry off bits to feed the nestlings etc. The city reservoir is adjacent and they often drop stuff into the water. The result is that the water supply is rather disgusting. OT --- Don't paddle there. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peyton's water tastes funny not because of a few ashes, human, animal or wood but rather because so many upstreamers are, literally and figuratively, pithing in it. Dana Dickson in Brooklyn Park on the Misissippi well upstream of New Orleans but downstream from a few pithy locations. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Chris and Ellen Kohut wrote: > Ok, I'll bite: just what is emblaming fluid? What are it's chemical > components and when did it start to come into accepted practice? > Inquiring minds want to know! > As I understand it, most embalming fluid is heavy on the formaldehyde. Formaldehyde is a carcinogen and an irritant. Professor Karl S. Coplan Pace Environmental Litigation Clinic, Inc. 78 North Broadway White Plains, N.Y. 10603 kcoplan_at_genesis.law.pace.edu (914) 422-4343 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 7/20/99 8:42:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, kcoplan_at_Genesis.law.pace.edu writes: << As I understand it, most embalming fluid is heavy on the formaldehyde. Formaldehyde is a carcinogen and an irritant. >> I had an environmental chemist tell me that the body catabolizes alcohol into Formaldehyde. Sounds like a complete crock to me but has anyone else heard this? Robin. Gotta get bottled water and quit drinking from the Mississippi... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Gratytshrk_at_aol.com wrote: > I had an environmental chemist tell me that the body catabolizes alcohol into > Formaldehyde. Sounds like a complete crock to me but has anyone else heard > this? Not a complete crock, only half a crock. The "alcohol" in alcoholic beverages is a two-carbon alcohol (aka ethyl alcohol, ethanol, grain alcohol, booze, hootch, etc.). When metabolized, it is converted (transiently) into acetaldehyde, a two-carbon aldehyde. Acetaldehyde's toxicity is miniscule relative to formaldehyde, partly due to the fact that formaldehyde is eventually metabolized to formic acid, the same stuff in ant stings. Alcohol pauses at acetaldehyde on its way to acetic acid, the stuff in vinegar. Acetic acid is food to your body. You will get fat from overconsuming alcohol, dudes and dudettes! [Today's chemical trivia: in "ancient" times, it was SOP to obtain small amounts of formic acid by heating up a flask of ants and condensing the vapors.] If Peyton's water tastes funny because of formaldehyde leaching away from casketized human remains, they have to be IN the Mississippi, because formaldehyde is so reactive it should quickly combine chemically with materials in the surrounding soil and be deactivated (unless we are talking about ppb or ppt levels). Yeah, I know, lots more than you wanted to know. Mandatory paddling content: formaldehyde is one of the ingredients of the glues used in marine plywood in stitch and glue yaks. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR sea kayaker organic chemist *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
><< As I understand it, most embalming fluid is heavy on the > formaldehyde. Formaldehyde is a carcinogen and an irritant. >> >I had an environmental chemist tell me that the body catabolizes alcohol into >Formaldehyde. Sounds like a complete crock to me but has anyone else heard >this? >Robin. Well, it is pretty nasty stuff but also still widely used --as an embalming fluid. It's still the best tissue fixative for tissue. I've used it for years for preserving museum specimens or for histology. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 7/20/99 4:44:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dkruger_at_pacifier.com writes: << Yeah, I know, lots more than you wanted to know. Mandatory paddling content: formaldehyde is one of the ingredients of the glues used in marine plywood in stitch and glue yaks. >> No way, you can never have too much campfire knowledge. thanks for clearing that up Dave! robin. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, 20 Jul 1999 16:30:26 -0700 Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> writes: >Gratytshrk_at_aol.com wrote: <<snip>> >> I had an environmental chemist tell me that the body catabolizes >alcohol into <<snip>> >Acetic acid is food to your body. You will get fat from overconsuming >alcohol, dudes and dudettes! Dave ....Robin ...I prefer to think of this "phenomenon" as an "paddler's auxillary cold water-weather preparedness" issue. Fat ! ...the very idea ! ....I just keep "more" of my wetsuit on for longer periods of time than some others might ! Fat ! ...the very idea ! 8-) <<snip>> >If Peyton's water tastes funny because of <<snip>> Actually, the water is not bad down here. I didn't give this thread its name. I am not in N.O. I am a ways north of N'Awlins. ( Crescent City water does in fact make some fine coffee and some fine gumbo; even a good brew or two !) I am on the Ouachita ( into Black, into Red, into Mississippi). Taste is not a problem with my local water. The problem is a continuing depletion of our Sparta aquifer which supplies north LA and south Ark. I probably won't be here, but that will be a "bad" day indeed, when the fresh-water runs out. And it may come sooner than we think. I'm as optimistic as anyone and live a pretty simple lifestyle ...primitive camp ....enjoy the water without an exhaust pipe ....no trophy hunting or fishing ...keep my VW bus alive. When I can I like to visit Mammoth Spring in north Ark on Spring River. They say 9 million gallons an hour and mid 50's. Looks like more than that, and feels colder than that to me. It's a beautiful spot and some fine CI-II water always "on" .....so far at least ! ....adieu .....Peyton (Louisiana) ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A great little river run in the summer heat. Nice cold clear water, runs even when everything else is dried up. Certainly not big water in late summer but a nice float with some interesting pools and drops. > When I can I like to visit Mammoth Spring in north Ark on Spring River. >They say 9 million gallons an hour and mid 50's. Looks like more than >that, and feels colder than that to me. It's a beautiful spot and some >fine CI-II water always "on" .....so far at least ! ....adieu >.....Peyton (Louisiana) > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark, Your mentioning that you'd brought this up reminded me that I need to have this serious discussion with my wife. We both plan to be cremated too, and we'd both like to have our ashes scattered over either the Rocky mountains or the ocean. I hope to convince her that if I'm ever "lost at sea" that it will "cut out the middleman" and she won't have to write a check to the undertaker. I know it's a tough subject, especially for the potential survivors of the deceased, but it needs to be discussed NOW before the time comes when such decisions are really tough. Take, for example Rob Hall, the New Zealand guide who died on Mt. Everest in 1996. It was a beautiful thing that, although bittersweet, his wife was able to talk to him via satellite radio in his last breaths. I'm sure coping with his death was not easy (it never is), but she probably realizes that bringing his body back would definitely risk the lives of others, and, that he will "rest forever" in a place he loved. Shawn Mark wrote: >the discussion of this was quite heated in my house ... my wife said she >would want my body back at any cost ... when i asked her why, she wouldn't >answer... i told her, since we were already clear either of us were to be >creamated, that i absolutely would NOT want people to risk their lives for >my dead ass. of course i expected people to work like hell to RESCUE me, >but not to retreive a body. it may be a few days before she speaks to me >again ;-( but we're on the same page ... peter is right, talk to your >spouses, SO's families, etc... 0 ____©/______ ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ Shawn W. Baker 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ Baker Brothers mailto://baker_at_montana.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bittersweet is way too weak. I believed they talked for hours even naming an unborn child. No word fits that. As for the drowning, I agree with nearly all comments. As a dive rescue specialist with several recoveries as well as a decade of mountain rescue with rescues and recoveries, I can tell you that this is really tough for the rescuers and of course the family. It took me ten years to get partial closure from my experience on the Episcopal School search and rescue on Mt. Hood. For me it wasn't the act of passing the bodies out of the snow cave so much as the aftermath of the problems caused by a well placed egomaniac who nearly certainly delayed locating the victims. Media coverage never hit the mark because sensible people didn't talk. A state congressional investigation was carried out as a result of accusations made by this person but quietly died after a month long investigation by the responsible agency found him to be at fault, but too popular after national heroe worship. He later died at an early age from a heart attack. My experience with the rescue community otherwise has been that people will do about anything short of obvious high risktaking during a rescue. Unfortunately rescuers don't always know what they are getting into. Diving in poor visibility and or in current may be particularly dangerous but seem reasonable from the surface. People may supress fear for fear of looking weak. I don't have figures, but the word in the dive rescue community is that more rescuers die than victims saved. Feelings run high. I think dad is stuck in an early stage of grieving and needs counseling. He's not helping matters for others - especially the rescue community, some of whom will need critical stress debriefing. The media and politics that follow may be devastating. The rescuer who carried the little girl from the old well a few years ago committed suicide. Senator Thurmond should stay out of this!!! So, It's not just for the environment that the Chatooga R. should be left alone. That is another very good reason to scrap that plan, though. Bill At 12:18 PM 7/16/99 -0600, Shawn W. Baker wrote: >Mark, >Your mentioning that you'd brought this up reminded me that I need to >have this serious discussion with my wife. We both plan to be cremated >too, and we'd both like to have our ashes scattered over either the >Rocky mountains or the ocean. I hope to convince her that if I'm ever >"lost at sea" that it will "cut out the middleman" and she won't have to >write a check to the undertaker. > >I know it's a tough subject, especially for the potential survivors of >the deceased, but it needs to be discussed NOW before the time comes >when such decisions are really tough. > >Take, for example Rob Hall, the New Zealand guide who died on Mt. >Everest in 1996. It was a beautiful thing that, although bittersweet, >his wife was able to talk to him via satellite radio in his last >breaths. I'm sure coping with his death was not easy (it never is), but >she probably realizes that bringing his body back would definitely risk >the lives of others, and, that he will "rest forever" in a place he >loved. > >Shawn > >Mark wrote: >>the discussion of this was quite heated in my house ... my wife said she >>would want my body back at any cost ... when i asked her why, she wouldn't >>answer... i told her, since we were already clear either of us were to be >>creamated, that i absolutely would NOT want people to risk their lives for >>my dead ass. of course i expected people to work like hell to RESCUE me, >>but not to retreive a body. it may be a few days before she speaks to me >>again ;-( but we're on the same page ... peter is right, talk to your >>spouses, SO's families, etc... > > 0 > ____©/______ >~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ >Shawn W. Baker 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ >Baker Brothers mailto://baker_at_montana.com >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>From: "Shawn W. Baker" <baker_at_montana.com> snip >Take, for example Rob Hall, the New Zealand guide who died on Mt. >Everest in 1996. It was a beautiful thing that, although bittersweet, >his wife was able to talk to him via satellite radio in his last >breaths. I'm sure coping with his death was not easy (it never is), but >she probably realizes that bringing his body back would definitely risk >the lives of others, and, that he will "rest forever" in a place he >loved. Interesting you should mention this example Shawn, as I just finished reading "Into Thin Air" last night, and was comparing the reaction of Rob's family with that of the teenage girl victim on the Chatooga. I believe two factors propably account for the difference in desire to leave or retrieve the body: 1. Rob Hall's family would have learned a bit about mountaineering over the years, and would understand that even at the close of the twentith century there remain places on earth where technology cannot facilatate an easy and safe retrival of a body, dead or alive. I'm not sure the Chatooga teen's family would understand this; most urban dwellers are accustomed to thinking that if they can reach a phone, they can mobilize firetrucks, helicopters, or something that can get anywhere. 2. Rob's family would also be clearer that the mountains are a place their loved one loved while alive, and that he would propably not have been troubled by the idea of his body resting there. Philip Torrens *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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