I don't like the "freestyle" name either, first because it isn't, second because it doesn't refer to the paddle type, third because the name is already used for certain styles of canoeing and skiing. I prefer "narrow-blade" style, first because narrow blades is what the certification is all about, second because a lot of so-called "Greenland" paddles are not shaped like authentic Greenland paddles and can't be used like Greenland paddles, third because it removes any implication that the student is learning authentic Greenland techniques, and fourth because it is unlikely to upset the Greenlanders. Also, there is a continuous kayaking tradition in Greenland. Greenland kayakers paddle, not "paddled." People have different reasons for learning Greenland techniques. Some, as you say, merely want to add to their repertoire, but others really are concerned about authenticity -- out of curiosity, if for no other reason. For that reason I think it is important to maintain the distinction. Chuck Holst -----Original Message----- From: Nick Schade [mailto:schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com] Sent: Friday, July 09, 1999 10:51 AM To: paddlewise Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] ACA Greenland certific At 9:42 AM -0700 7/8/99, Mattson, Timothy G wrote: >I don't like the name Free-style 'cause it is devoid of information. > Thats exactly what I like about it. Most people practicing "Greenland Technique" are really having fun experimenting with different paddle strokes and trying different manuevers. "Freestyle" lets you experiment and grow in the best tradition of the kayakers of Greenland. Instead of trying to conform to some mis-begotten concept of how the original kayakers really paddled, why not create a context and foundation for moving onward. The only valid reason I can see for studying traditional techniques is to learn how to improve your own and hopefully learn techniques better than those you were taught. Nick Schade *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> instructors will sell "greenland" classes, banking heavily on the name to encourage people to take the classes, but in reality, the skills being taught may not be anything like what the natives use. as nick pointed out, the name sells ... people are making money claiming to teach something they really aren't teaching. mark >> I doubt that this Greenland certification thing came about from a desire to make money; rather, I suspect it came about because kayakers who had bought something called a Greenland paddle wanted instruction in how to use it, and many of the instructors they asked to teach them knew they knew very little about it, so they turned to the ACA. At least twice, instructors have said to me: "I don't know how this applies to a Greenland paddle...." If there weren't a demand, there would be little point in the instructors going to the time and expense of getting certified. But I think the demand probably came first. I also suspect that some ACA instructors who had learned as much as possible about Greenland technique on their own became alarmed at the number of paddlers who were using poor or inappropriate technique with their Greenland paddles, and wanted to set up a program that would help ACA instructors to at least give them the basics. I know that Doug Van Doren is one of those who started teaching the Greenland forward stroke -- or at least, his version of the Greenland forward stroke -- for this reason. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 7/9/99 11:02:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time, CHUCK_at_multitech.com writes: << I also suspect that some ACA instructors who had learned as much as possible about Greenland technique on their own became alarmed at the number of paddlers who were using poor or inappropriate technique with their Greenland paddles, >> ACA certif. is all about "venders" covering their ASSets. Its all about insurance. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Tomckayak_at_aol.com wrote: > > ACA certif. is all about "venders" covering their ASSets. Its all about > insurance. > Without getting out of this chair, I can point to about 50 ACA certified instructors who are volunteers, not "venders," and we appreciate very much having our ASSets covered, thank you. But the insurance is not the only point. -- Steve Cramer Test Scoring and Reporting Services University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-5593 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, 9 Jul 1999 Tomckayak_at_aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/9/99 11:02:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > CHUCK_at_multitech.com writes: > > << I also suspect that some ACA instructors who had learned as much as > possible about Greenland technique on their own became alarmed at the > number of paddlers who were using poor or inappropriate technique with > their Greenland paddles, >> > > ACA certif. is all about "venders" covering their ASSets. Its all about > insurance. i am glad i became a "certified" ACA instructor, i have had many good experiences about it... i agree with steve alder [did i get that right], that many instructors are great... i know very few bad instructors... i should qualify that by saying this is in the ww canoe regime, not sk/wwk. i have seen the program and philosophy change during my years as an instructor. you have to recertify each four years, and teach during that time as well. i saw 2 big changes during just the last 4 year period [92-96]. the top teachers work with each other, and listen intently to what students discuss, and they work as instructor trainers, imparting their philoshy on their students. i have not seen the ACA as a stagnant entity. their gathering of top rated paddlers to compete in the open canoe slalom nationals is happening a little more than 15 hours from now. they have been impressive to watch training, yet i sure haven't seen the "egos" associated with many other top athletes... insurance is truely a benefit. and i'd bet each and every student thought so to, even though i never used it [ie, made a claim]. i would never have taught in this litigous [sp?] society. not something as "dangerous" as river canoeing. while teaching anythingis, and always has been my favorite thing to do, i wouldn't do this if i were truely risking everything i've worked all my life for [yeah, i know, drving down the road is a crap shoot, but i have insurance on my car too]. i tried getting insurance on my own, as a guide/outfitter - there was some chance, not to teach ... and the first question is "are you a certified instructor" ... not that "state farm/allstate/etc" would probably even have a clue as to "who would do the certifying?" --- i don't even want to get into the "divers must be certified to fill their tanks" mode ... i don't teach for the money ... 75% of my classes have been to non-profit groups, and fees dropped/reduced/etc ... but even if i charged full price for every class and every student, i wouldn't have recovered my cost to be certified, let alone the expenses involved in teaching [replacing damaged gear after every class gets pretty expensive, no matter how careful people are] which leads this long winded post to its conclusion ... in my humble opion there should be _some_ type of certification available from some form of overseeing body, from a "consistancy of basic skills" for an instructor ... is the ACA the right body for this? i don't know, who are my other choices?? who certifies the instructors [IT or instructor trainer]. if they are going to call it "greenland" then it better be "greenland" so if someone goes there, the natives won't fall out of their boats laughing their asses off [sorry]. i have to agree that the ACA is using the name as a marketing ploy. they way they have expanded into sea kayaking [coastal?] and white water kayaking. heck, until just a few years ago, they _only_ had white water canoeing as a choice, you couldn't be "certified" unless you were certified in the whitewater disipline, even if all you wanted to do was teach touring... "sorry --- no hit -n- switch" so even though it says "Canoe" they want to be the "boating" body... sorry ACA, i think you're out of line, just call it something else, because it isn't what you represent it to be. mark ACA Tandem Canoe Instructor #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index of Paddling websites I manage] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page -- Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. --Pablo Picasso *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Narrow Blade Style" raises no objections from me. I do think most of the techniques associated with narrow blades are very applicable to wide blades, so basing the name on one particular kind of paddle is limiting. But it is a way to teach people who want to use a narrow blade how to use it. I am curious as to how Greenlanders paddle, but I would rather learn it from a Greenlander or at the very least someone taught by a Greenlander. I don't think instruction from someone who does not even have permission from a Greenlander would really satisfy my curiosity. If the ACA wants to certify Greenland Technique, they should help a group in Greenland start a school for instructors, and then require anyone who wants certification to teach the style go to that school. This would make the instruction more authentic and probably go a long way to releiving the concerns of native Greenlanders. Nick At 12:38 PM -0500 7/9/99, Chuck Holst wrote: >I don't like the "freestyle" name either, first because it isn't, >second because it doesn't refer to the paddle type, third because the >name is already used for certain styles of canoeing and skiing. I >prefer "narrow-blade" style, first because narrow blades is what the >certification is all about, second because a lot of so-called >"Greenland" paddles are not shaped like authentic Greenland paddles >and can't be used like Greenland paddles, third because it removes >any implication that the student is learning authentic Greenland >techniques, and fourth because it is unlikely to upset the >Greenlanders. > >Also, there is a continuous kayaking tradition in Greenland. Greenland >kayakers paddle, not "paddled." > >People have different reasons for learning Greenland techniques. Some, >as you say, merely want to add to their repertoire, but others really >are concerned about authenticity -- out of curiosity, if for no other >reason. For that reason I think it is important to maintain the >distinction. > >Chuck Holst Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 10 Ash Swamp Rd Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick; I agree with you. If the ACA feels compelled to certify Greenland-style paddling, let them call it something else. Another point: I fail to understand why the ACA wants to do this at all. The ACA understood in the light of standing for paddling safety and consistant standards in the United States makes sense to me. Their wanting to certify a technique that is outside of the safety/standards issue is confusing and really serves in my view to denigrate the ACA. It's as though a group of people are wanting to validate their hobby and thereby themselves. OK, so they like thier skinny paddles. It's a personal preference thing. There's no reason to build a whole official certification process around it. Who BTW, is certifying the certifiers? If they feel so passionate about it why don't they get their training from the source? Consult the Greenlanders. Its not an unreasonable request. Then again, I'm thinking; You know, I had the first Romany on the West Coast, and I'm sure, one of the first in the country. What say I create a Romany paddling certification school. The WSR (Winskill School of Romany's). What do you think? We could begin classes for instructors this fall. Any takers? John Winskill John Winskill Nick Schade wrote: > > "Narrow Blade Style" raises no objections from me. I do think most of the > techniques associated with narrow blades are very applicable to wide > blades, so basing the name on one particular kind of paddle is limiting. > But it is a way to teach people who want to use a narrow blade how to use > it. > > I am curious as to how Greenlanders paddle, but I would rather learn it > from a Greenlander or at the very least someone taught by a Greenlander. I > don't think instruction from someone who does not even have permission from > a Greenlander would really satisfy my curiosity. If the ACA wants to > certify Greenland Technique, they should help a group in Greenland start a > school for instructors, and then require anyone who wants certification to > teach the style go to that school. This would make the instruction more > authentic and probably go a long way to releiving the concerns of native > Greenlanders. > > Nick > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
For those that are interested -- both new proposed paddling newsgroups on USENET (rec.boat.paddle.touring and rec.boat.paddle.whitewater) were approved by wide margins. It will probably take a few days before they're up and running. -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:08 AM 7/12/99 -0400, Nick Schade wrote: >"Narrow Blade Style" raises no objections from me. I do think most of the >techniques associated with narrow blades are very applicable to wide >blades, so basing the name on one particular kind of paddle is limiting. >But it is a way to teach people who want to use a narrow blade how to use >it. I agree that "narrow blade paddling techniques" or something along that line is a good representative name, providing that the Greenlanders give their consent. Otherwise simply calling a skunk a flower doesn't improve its fragrance. I disagree with you however, about most techniques for narrow versus wide blade paddles being basically the same. Have you ever seen an experienced "Europaddler" charge off with a "Greenland stick" for the first time. What a disaster. Nothing but excessive slippage, flutter (and often a stream of obscenities) due to incorrect technique. There are different forward stroke techniques to learn, the paddle is held quite differently, the shape of the stroke is different, the paddle sensations are different, recovery from braces is done differently (you don't feather the paddle vertically to exit as with a "Euroblade"), and so on. Nothing mysterious or difficult mind you, just different. How about some blasphemy? There are some interesting Greenland rolls that are done without any hipsnap, and in some hand-rolls the head and torso lead the charge. When John Heath's "Greenlanders at Kodiak" video was reviewed in Sea Kayaker some years ago, the reviewer (Washburne?) stated that is was "illogical" that some of the rolls worked. Some techniques were in direct contrast to the strong-hipsnap-head-come-up-last dogma. In computer-speak it is a very different paradigm. If you really want to get into the narrow blade techniques you quickly realize that you have reached a fork in the road and are about to follow a very different path. Perhaps the toughest thing is not the learning of new skills but the need to "unlearn" many things that were imprinted in your brain very early in your paddling career. Greg Stamer Orlando, Florida *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:43 AM -0400 7/13/99, Greg Stamer wrote: >At 09:08 AM 7/12/99 -0400, Nick Schade wrote: >>"Narrow Blade Style" raises no objections from me. I do think most of the >>techniques associated with narrow blades are very applicable to wide >>blades, so basing the name on one particular kind of paddle is limiting. >>But it is a way to teach people who want to use a narrow blade how to use >>it. <snip> >I disagree with you however, about most techniques for narrow versus wide >blade paddles being basically the same. Have you ever seen an experienced >"Europaddler" charge off with a "Greenland stick" for the first time. What >a disaster. Nothing but excessive slippage, flutter (and often a stream of >obscenities) due to incorrect technique. There are different forward stroke >techniques to learn, the paddle is held quite differently, the shape of the >stroke is different, the paddle sensations are different, recovery from >braces is done differently (you don't feather the paddle vertically to exit >as with a "Euroblade"), and so on. Nothing mysterious or difficult mind >you, just different. > <snip> I did not try to say that "Euro" and "Greenland" are the same. They are different, but many of the extended paddle and sliding stroke techniques of the "Greenland" style are applicable to "Euro" paddles. I often use a low paddle stroke with my "Euro" blade which is very similar to the "Greenland" technique. There is no magic about the narrow blade which makes it so the skill learned while using a "Greenland" paddle can not be adapted to good effect with a wide "Euro" blade and vice-versa. The same laws of physic apply. All paddles function in the same universe and anything you can do with one paddle you can find a similar function with a different paddle. The different paddles will do things differently, but in the end they are still paddles with more similarities than differences. Nick Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 10 Ash Swamp Rd Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick wrote; (SNIP) >There is no magic about the narrow blade which makes it so the >skill learned while using a "Greenland" paddle can not be adapted to good >effect with a wide "Euro" blade and vice-versa. The same laws of physic >apply. All paddles function in the same universe and anything you can do >with one paddle you can find a similar function with a different paddle. >The different paddles will do things differently, but in the end they are >still paddles with more similarities than differences. I concur with Nick on this as my tinkering with paddles suggests that techniques are relatively interchangeable with paddles so long as basic characteristics remain constant. The one possible exception would be the true racing wing due to its unique shape. The relative effectiveness of the different paddles may vary but they still seem to work adequately well. (all subjective of course). I have a project underway right now testing the various strokes with a variety of blade styles that I hope to finish soon. So far the most interesting paddle has a blade half way between the common high and low aspect ratio paddles narrow with a short overall length that one sues like a racing wing. It consistently produces more speed for the same effort ( as determined using the Borg Scale for perceived effort) and has the added benefit of being lighter than most paddles. An equally interesting paddle if only because I have had a lot of difficulty getting it shaped properly is a wing blade with convex surfaces front and back. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > I concur with Nick on this as my tinkering with paddles suggests that > techniques are relatively interchangeable with paddles so long as basic > characteristics remain constant. The one possible exception would be the > true racing wing due to its unique shape. The relative effectiveness of the > different paddles may vary but they still seem to work adequately well. (all > subjective of course). I've been playing around with a homemade 'greenland style' stick (thanks again for your building notes Chuck) for a couple of months, and would also tend to agree with Nick and John's comments. No reason why extended paddle strokes etc can't be done with a euro paddle, however the 'feel' of greenland style paddles doe differ markedly from euro blades, and my observation would be that bracing and skulling strokes are also somewhat different - clearly harder to stall the 'greenland' stick when skulling and rolling and it definitely doesn't interact with the surface in the same way while bracing. Interesting to know whether the differences are primarily because of the aspect ratio, immersed blade area, or section. > I have a project underway right now testing the various strokes with a > variety of blade styles that I hope to finish soon. So far the most > interesting paddle has a blade half way between the common high and low > aspect ratio paddles narrow with a short overall length that one sues like a > racing wing. > > It consistently produces more speed for the same effort ( as determined > using the Borg Scale for perceived effort) and has the added benefit of > being lighter than most paddles. An equally interesting paddle if only > because I have had a lot of difficulty getting it shaped properly is a wing > blade with convex surfaces front and back. > Any photos or drawings of these paddles available John ? Cheers Colin Calder 57º19'N 2º10'W *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Colin Calder wrote: >> I've been playing around with a homemade 'greenland style' stick (thanks again for your building notes Chuck) for a couple of months, and would also tend to agree with Nick and John's comments. No reason why extended paddle strokes etc can't be done with a euro paddle, however the 'feel' of greenland style paddles does differ markedly from euro blades, and my observation would be that bracing and skulling strokes are also somewhat different - clearly harder to stall the 'greenland' stick when skulling and rolling and it definitely doesn't interact with the surface in the same way while bracing. Interesting to know whether the differences are primarily because of the aspect ratio, immersed blade area, or section. >> and John Winters wrote: > I have a project underway right now testing the various strokes with a > variety of blade styles that I hope to finish soon. So far the most > interesting paddle has a blade half way between the common high and low > aspect ratio paddles narrow with a short overall length that one sues like a > racing wing. > > It consistently produces more speed for the same effort ( as determined > using the Borg Scale for perceived effort) and has the added benefit of > being lighter than most paddles. An equally interesting paddle if only > because I have had a lot of difficulty getting it shaped properly is a > wing blade with convex surfaces front and back. > and Chuck Holst writes: I think the blade section, perhaps combined with the aspect ratio, is what makes the biggest difference. A well-made Greenland paddle has a double-convex section, which someone pointed out a while back is similar to the wing section of an acrobatic airplane. If this is true, then a paddle with the same profile as a Greenland paddle but made with a flat or spoon-shaped blade should feel and act differently. It is interesting, the different opinions you get on this subject. One paddler I know who purchased a quasi-Greenland paddle (the blades were a bit wide for him and had nearly parallel sides) asserts that it can be used with the same technique as a Euro paddle. In contrast, last Wednesday I loaned my Greenland paddle to a kayaker who was using a wide- blade feathered Euro paddle (FWIW, he is also a canoe racer). He was amazed at how much lift it had when swept through the water, and after paddling with it for about 15 minutes thoughtfully remarked that it required a different style. I think we non-Greenlanders who have been studying Greenland paddles and paddling techniques and posing as authorities are a bit like the blind men of the Indian fable: everyone has hold of a different part and thinks it represents the whole. For my part, I suspect that the Greenland paddle and the sliding stroke evolved together, and I do not consider any paddle that cannot be used with the sliding stroke to be a Greenland paddle regardless of appearance. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:31 AM -0500 7/16/99, Chuck Holst wrote: > >I think we non-Greenlanders who have been studying Greenland paddles and >paddling techniques and posing as authorities are a bit like the blind >men of the Indian fable: everyone has hold of a different part and thinks >it represents the whole. For my part, I suspect that the Greenland paddle >and the sliding stroke evolved together, and I do not consider any paddle >that cannot be used with the sliding stroke to be a Greenland paddle >regardless of appearance. > I can do a sliding stroke to good effect with a "euro" paddle, does that make it a "Greenland" paddle? No, I don't slide all the way to the end, but I can use the sliding technique to do extended paddle moves. While it is not convenient, you can slide all the way to the end. I know what I am doing does not qualify by most peoples criteria as true "Greenland" technique, but it is an example of how the skills can be adapted to different paddles. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 10 Ash Swamp Rd Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
OK, for us little old ladies in the audience, what is a "sliding stroke"? e Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Colin Calder <c.j.calder_at_abdn.ac.uk> To: paddlewise <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Date: Friday, July 16, 1999 9:02 AM Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] ACA Greenland certific (SNIP) > Any photos or drawings of these paddles available John ? Nothing yet but once I have finished I will provide all the data, probably on my web site since it will exceed the size limits for Paddlewise. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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