Matt Broze wrote >You think you can, but I'll bet if you ask a buddy to try to capsize you by >surprise sometime you will find you revert to the braces that you have >practiced and won't have time to think "which feather am I using today". It >is one thing to practice doing it both ways, it is quite another to control >your reactive panic brace. I'm a novice who frequently hires boats so find the above point very relevant. In Sydney hired kayaks are invariably supplied with feathered paddles. I've only kayaked once in the US and the paddles were feathered at that shop too. So it seems appropriate to use feathered paddles on my own boat, because I don't want to be continually changing styles and enjoy trying as many boats and environments as possible. What have others found with hired kayaks - are the paddles usually feathered? Perhaps Elaine could tell us what they use in N.Uist? All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Just wanted to welcome you to a neat group. Your questions and comments are excellent. I look forward to all the responses you will be getting. Sandy Kramer Miami, Florida *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Robert, I tour and surf with an unfeathered paddle. I think it is more ergonomic and versatile, because it allows for straight wrists and arms, and for low and high angle strokes. It is also a lot easier to use for sweep strokes, rolls, braces, and stern rudders, because the wrists are in more of a neutral position. Unfeathered paddles are best when the wind is coming from behind and the sides. The only disadvantage they have is in a strong headwind. I did have to feather my paddle in some severe high headwinds that I recently encountered, or else I wouldn't have been able to make any headway. As a result, I now practice paddling, rolling, bracing and other skills with my paddle in both the feathered and unfeathered positions. It was tricky going back and forth at first, but it quickly became easy with practice. Now I can use which position is best for the particular conditions I encounter. By the way, I don't have any problems surfing with an unfeathered paddle, and I actually think it is more effective. I even went as far as to cut my one piece feathered surf paddle in half and put it back together in the unfeathered position. Overall, I prefer an unfeathered paddle, except in a severe headwind. Don't let anyone tell you that you have to feather your paddle to be a good kayaker. Duane Strosaker Irvine, California *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thank you, thank you for your words on unfeathered paddles. Recently I've been kayaking with an awful lot of people who hint that unfeathered paddles are only for newcomers to the sport. Although I've been seakayaking for just 2 years, I know what works for me, and I can only wish that everyone had your 'live and let live' attitude. Pam Stohrer New Hampshire *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I get the impression that there is a revisionist point of view prevailing. Five or six years ago many instructors seemed to advocate the feathered technique. Because of wrist injuries and perhaps bracing advantages most seem to have shifted their to the unfeathered method. I recently converted and find that I like it better. I do still feather when headed into strong winds. Andy -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of SKILLIANS_at_aol.com Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 7:29 AM To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Feathered v Unfeathered paddles Thank you, thank you for your words on unfeathered paddles. Recently I've been kayaking with an awful lot of people who hint that unfeathered paddles are only for newcomers to the sport. Although I've been seakayaking for just 2 years, I know what works for me, and I can only wish that everyone had your 'live and let live' attitude. Pam Stohrer New Hampshire *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Maybe some of the converts to Greenland paddles are really refugees from feathered paddles. I know I've been happy to paddle along with my 2x4 while others "discuss" the configuration of their Euro paddles. When conditions mandate a wider blade it is the wind that is making that demand and that means I suffer the elbow pain of having used the feathered paddle. I haven't found a satisfactory alternative yet. Joan Andy Johnson wrote: > I get the impression that there is a revisionist point of view prevailing. > Five or six years ago many instructors seemed to advocate the feathered > technique. Because of wrist injuries and perhaps bracing advantages most > seem to have shifted their to the unfeathered method. I recently converted > and find that I like it better. I do still feather when headed into strong > winds. > > AND > > Thank you, thank you for your words on unfeathered paddles. Recently I've > been kayaking with an awful lot of people who hint that unfeathered paddles > are only for newcomers to the sport. Although I've been seakayaking for > just 2 years, I know what works for me, and I can only wish that everyone had > > your 'live and let live' attitude. > > Pam Stohrer > New Hampshire *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Andy Johnson wrote: > Because of wrist injuries and perhaps bracing advantages most > seem to have shifted their to the unfeathered method. I've heard a few folks make comments about the "bracing advantages" of unfeathered. I've only used feathered (well, rarely used unfeathered) and can't figure out what the advantage is. Could you explain? Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael, I was afraid that someone would call me on this. I'm not an expert on either the technicalities nor the ergonomics of bracing. I was only echoing comments that I have been reading in Paddlewise, some of which seem to make sense. See exchange between Duane Strossaker and Matt Broze inserted below for two sides of the issue. As the result of a previous series of Paddlewise exchanges several weeks ago, I changed from feathered to unfeathered and I find the wear and tear on my wrists to be far less. Now I learn that I should have been doing feathered paddling with shoulder and arm articulation and not with articulation of the wrist; unfortunately I was taught wrist articulation several years ago at one of the west coast's oldest and most respected schools. I would bet that either the feathered or the unfeathered technique properly done will work well for the paddler. My guess is that there is less potential for nerve damage with the unfeathered (more margin of error for bad technique). Regarding the bracing issue, it seems to me that the greatest potential for harm is in the transition period from one technique to the other when one's instincts about paddle position may be misleading. I see this for myself now on the rare occasions when I revert to feathering with heavy headwinds, try to brace and find the edge of the paddle slicing down towards Davy's locker. With greater focus and more experience I think I can overcome this tendency. Andy ---------------------------- ----Original Message----- From: Strosaker_at_aol.com <Strosaker_at_aol.com> To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 9:03 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Feathered v Unfeathered paddles Duane Strosaker wrote >I tour and surf with an unfeathered paddle. I think it is more ergonomic and >versatile, because it allows for straight wrists and arms, and for low and >high angle strokes. It is also a lot easier to use for sweep strokes, rolls, >braces, and stern rudders, because the wrists are in more of a neutral >position. All of these things are just as easy with a feathered paddle if one uses low hand control (the hand position is the same as unfeathered--it is only if you are trying to maintain the fixed grip of the control hand that makes any of these more awkward. >Unfeathered paddles are best when the wind is coming from behind >and the sides. Both have different disadvantages in side winds and any push that is gained by unfeathered in a tail wind is likely to be lost ten times over going into the same speed head wind. A strong paddler paddling 4 knots into a 10 knot headwind will have added 10 knots of blade speed to the 10 knot wind for a relative wind of 20 knots. This creates 4 times the pressure on the unfeathered blade than when there is no wind (and the extra drag using an unfeathered paddle in no wind is still far more than a feathered blade slicing through the air at about 2.5 times boat speed). There is virtually no loss for the feathered and considerable for the unfeathered into the wind. Paddling with the same effort downwind might get the boat speed up to 5 or 6 knots but for comparrison purposes we will stay with 4 knots. This means blade speed would be about 10 knots. This would create virtually no drag due to the unfeathered blade sinally doing as well as a feathered. If we keep the speed the same winds higher than 10 knots would add a little benefit to unfeathered paddling but in reallity your boat speed would increase as well meaning it might take 15 knots of tailwind to break even. >The only disadvantage they have is in a strong headwind. Such an overwhelming disadvantage that I cut my first paddle in two and twisted it into a feathered paddle. >I did have to feather my paddle in some severe high headwinds that I recently >encountered, or else I wouldn't have been able to make any headway. As a >result, I now practice paddling, rolling, bracing and other skills with my >paddle in both the feathered and unfeathered positions. It was tricky going >back and forth at first, but it quickly became easy with practice. Now I can >use which position is best for the particular conditions I encounter. You think you can, but I'll bet if you ask a buddy to try to capsize you by surprise sometime you will find you revert to the braces that you have practiced and won't have time to think "which feather am I using today". It is one thing to practice doing it both ways, it is quite another to control your reactive panic brace. >By the way, I don't have any problems surfing with an unfeathered paddle, and >I actually think it is more effective. I even went as far as to cut my one >piece feathered surf paddle in half and put it back together in the >unfeathered position. Overall, I prefer an unfeathered paddle, except in a >severe headwind. During severe wind conditions is not when I'd want to be messing with my reactive paddle brace. >Don't let anyone tell you that you have to feather your >paddle to be a good kayaker. I know a lot of good paddlers who paddle unfeathered but not one good racer (slalom or flatwater) that does. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Michael Daly Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 5:24 PM Cc: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Feathered v Unfeathered paddles Andy Johnson wrote: > Because of wrist injuries and perhaps bracing advantages most > seem to have shifted their to the unfeathered method. I've heard a few folks make comments about the "bracing advantages" of unfeathered. I've only used feathered (well, rarely used unfeathered) and can't figure out what the advantage is. Could you explain? Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:29 AM 8/11/99 -0400, SKILLIANS_at_aol.com wrote: >Thank you, thank you for your words on unfeathered paddles. Recently I've >been kayaking with an awful lot of people who hint that unfeathered paddles >are only for newcomers to the sport. I would definately disagree. At the beginning of the summer a good friend of mine opened a new kayak shop in town. I have been down there almost every weekend helping out with rentals and help out with lessons once or twice a week. Before we put people in a kayak for the first time we spend 5-10 minutes going over the use of a feathered paddle. So far nobody has asked to use a feathered paddle but we would certainly accomodate them if that's what they want. For lessons, however, teaching everyone basic strokes with a feathered paddle has worked out well. What I see more often, primarily from those that primarily paddle whitewater kayaks is the contention that "feathered paddles with more than a 60 degree feather causes wrist problems". Feathered paddles don't cause wrist problems; the action of repetitively forcing your wrist to the maximum it will bend causes wrist problems. Try this simple experiment. For this example we'll use a feathered paddled set up with a right handed control. Hold the paddle out in front of you with the knuckles of your right hand lined up with the top edge of the right blade with the powerface towards you. Straighten your arms and then bend just your wrist backwards so that the left blade is now vertical. With a 90 degree feathered paddle you need to really bend your wrist back to get the left blade in a good catch position. Now go back to the start position but this time only bend your elbow so that your right hand comes up to your shoulder. You've got to bend your elbow quite a bit but you can get the left blade in a good catch position just by bending your elbow. Then try placing the left blade in the correct catch position by bending both your wrist back and by bending your elbow. In this case, neither your wrist, nor your elbow are being bent to the maximum range and this is going be easiest on both body parts, even with a 90 degree feathered paddle. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>From: Robert Lawson <lawson_at_unt.edu> >A newbie question- > >I have recently begun paddling. I had many wrist injuries in my >youth and I am concerned about the long term effects of bending >my wrist while using a feathered paddle. What are the advantages >of feathered over unfeatherd. How much would I risk my wrist to >use a feathered paddle? > >I am interested in river touring w/ mild white water if it is >part of the trip. I also hope to do some ocean surfing. Congratulations Robert! You've hit on a question that is approximately like asking "I've decided to convert to Christianity - should I become a Catholic or a Protestant?" The only saving grace, as it were, is that it's much easier to switch back and forth between feathered and unfeathered. When sea kayak touring I paddle unfeathered 99.99999% of the time. I paddle a so-called "quill" blade that doesn't seem as affected by headwinds as spoon blades. It delivers less force per stroke but allows you to paddle at a slightly higher cadence, but lower effort per stroke, that you can maintain all day with minimal grief to your wrists. When paddling whitewater or surf, I use a feathered blade, perhaps because the large bladed paddles that deliver the torque you need in this kind of water only come in feathered versions. Whichever paddle(s) you choose, two suggestions 1. Practise your braces, rolls, and sweeps with all your paddles so they become instinctive. 2. Especially when touring, there is no need to maintain a "death grip" on the shaft; this will just aggravate possible wrist problems. The lower hand can grip with just enough force to pull the blade back, and the upper hand can even flex completely open as it "punches" forward. Happy paddling, Philip Torrens N49°16' W123°06' *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ahh, the old feathered vs. unfeathered discussion. I was wondering when this one would come up again. And as someone brings up each time we get into this discussion, with proper technique, you do not "cock the wrist" with each stroke on the "non-control-hand" side. I know, many of the books out there tell you to do so, but if you watch a really good paddler who uses a feathered paddle, you'll see that during a forwawrd stroke, the wrist is in a straight line with the fore-arm. Adjustments are made in the shoulder and elbow to properly orient the blade. Of course, the wrist may still need to be cocked for rolls and braces, but you don't use those strokes as often as the forward stroke. --Tim > -----Original Message----- > From: Andy Johnson [SMTP:carljohn_at_hsc.usc.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 8:56 AM > To: SKILLIANS_at_aol.com; paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Feathered v Unfeathered paddles > > I get the impression that there is a revisionist point of view prevailing. > Five or six years ago many instructors seemed to advocate the feathered > technique. Because of wrist injuries and perhaps bracing advantages most > seem to have shifted their to the unfeathered method. I recently converted > and find that I like it better. I do still feather when headed into strong > winds. > > Andy > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of > SKILLIANS_at_aol.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 7:29 AM > To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Feathered v Unfeathered paddles > > > Thank you, thank you for your words on unfeathered paddles. Recently I've > been kayaking with an awful lot of people who hint that unfeathered > paddles > are only for newcomers to the sport. Although I've been seakayaking for > just > 2 years, I know what works for me, and I can only wish that everyone had > your > 'live and let live' attitude. > > Pam Stohrer > New Hampshire > ************************************************************************** > * > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > ************************************************************************** > * > > ************************************************************************** > * > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > ************************************************************************** > * *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mattson, Timothy G wrote: > > Ahh, the old feathered vs. unfeathered discussion. I was wondering when > this one would come up again. I am of "on the one hand...and on the other hand" school of thought. So I have my left blade feathered and my right one unfeathered. A real Zen approach. :-) > > And as someone brings up each time we get into this discussion, with proper > technique, you do not "cock the wrist" with each stroke on the > "non-control-hand" side. I know, many of the books out there tell you to do > so, but if you watch a really good paddler who uses a feathered paddle, > you'll see that during a forwawrd stroke, the wrist is in a straight line > with the fore-arm. Adjustments are made in the shoulder and elbow to > properly orient the blade. Derek Hutchinson put it quite well in his course in an easy to remember way: If you had a watch on that hand it should be able to be read by God and not by the paddler behind you. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 8/11/99 12:45:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, timothy.g.mattson_at_intel.com writes: << And as someone brings up each time we get into this discussion, with proper technique, you do not "cock the wrist" with each stroke on the "non-control-hand" side. I know, many of the books out there tell you to do so, but if you watch a really good paddler who uses a feathered paddle, you'll see that during a forwawrd stroke, the wrist is in a straight line with the fore-arm. Adjustments are made in the shoulder and elbow to properly orient the blade. >> Oh, Oh. You don't??? Now I'll have to print this and take the itty-bitty piece of paper on the water with me and see how I do it vs what you are suggesting. I'm 99.9% sure that I "rotate" my wrist. Does this increase the risk of carpal tunnel syndrome which, considering I'm a writer and at the PC almost all day, looks as if I'll be lucky to escape? Sandy Kramer Miami *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think you should paddle however the heck you wanna paddle. Period. There are pros and cons for both. I paddle unfeathered. It feels right to me. I have tried TheOtherWay and I just don't like. I think anyone who tells you THIS IS THE WAY and if you DONT do it this way you are a newby, dumb, etc. is nuts. Do your own thing either way. Paddling should be about fun not about the twist on your paddle. Pick which is most efficient for YOU and go kayaking. To many people really spend to much time on this issue and it confuses people just starting out in this sport. Just grab a paddle and go. I need to take my own advice apparently. I have typed "battle" everytime I have meant paddle. So you can tell how my day is going! 8-) Later... Dan McCarty Thank you, thank you for your words on unfeathered paddles. Recently I've been kayaking with an awful lot of people who hint that unfeathered paddles are only for newcomers to the sport. Although I've been seakayaking for just 2 years, I know what works for me, and I can only wish that everyone had your 'live and let live' attitude. Pam Stohrer *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
><< And as someone brings up each time we get into this discussion, with proper > technique, you do not "cock the wrist" with each stroke on the > "non-control-hand" side. I know, many of the books out there tell you to do > so, but if you watch a really good paddler who uses a feathered paddle, > you'll see that during a forwawrd stroke, the wrist is in a straight line > with the fore-arm. Adjustments are made in the shoulder and elbow to > properly orient the blade. >> > >Oh, Oh. You don't??? I'm 99.9% sure that I "rotate" my wrist. Does this increase >the risk of carpal tunnel syndrome which, considering I'm a writer and at the >PC almost all day, looks as if I'll be lucky to escape? >Sandy Kramer I just grabbed my paddle and looked at what I do. No, I don't rotate the wrist of my non-control hand, but the control wrist does get pulled up a little (45 degree feather). But then I don't adjust with shoulder or elbow either -- that could probably hurt.... What I do is loosen my grip and let the shaft rotate in my hand. Wrist still stays straight. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 8/11/99 3:44:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pylka_at_castle.net writes: << I just grabbed my paddle and looked at what I do. No, I don't rotate the wrist of my non-control hand, but the control wrist does get pulled up a little (45 degree feather). But then I don't adjust with shoulder or elbow either -- that could probably hurt.... What I do is loosen my grip and let the shaft rotate in my hand. Wrist still stays straight. >> No paddle in the office!! Will try this evening. Thanks *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Always push with your wrist in a line between the paddle shaft and your elbow (straight wrist) and with your hand open enough so your wrist doesn't bend side to side as it follows the paddle shaft through its arc (let the paddle pivot in your hand). Done right it should be possible to paddle with your wrists in a cast. The straight punch with a straight wrist is more powerful than a bent wrist push as well. The Essential Kayaker says repeatedly how important it is to always keep a firm unmoving grip on the shaft with your control hand. Ignore that advice, it is a prescription for wrist problems and is totally unnecessary. 45 to 60 degrees is perfect in calm winds but go to at least 70 degrees or you will find it hell to paddle into an extreme wind. blade on one side being lifted up and on the other side being forced downward. It is effortless to let the paddle rotate the few degrees more to get to 75 or 80 degrees (due to the rotating motion already imparted on the shaft by lifting the next pushing hand from the elbow). It is dangerous for most paddlers to switch feathers as it may create confusion if you need a sudden reactive brace. George Gronseth and I have had this feathered vs. unfeathered argument for years and all the issues can easily be made into non-issues with a little technique, except the issue of winds affecting the paddle blade in the air. As far as head winds go we haven't figured out the percent of additional drag with an unfeathered paddle but I think it feels pretty significant and George says it feel that way but is actually quite small. Anybody want to quantify this? the unfeathered advocates often point out that a sidewind can get under a blade and capsize a paddler. could happen but one quickly learns to use a low stroke in extreme winds. A sudden high brace required of an unfeathered paddler being knocked over by a gust might mean they would forget to keep the paddle real low for the brace and expose the paddle face to the side wind. I'd rate sidewinds a draw. winds from behind will have to be very strong before the push helps an unfeathered paddler because of boat and paddle blade speed (est. about 2.5 times boat speed) Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com -----Original Message----- From: Sandykayak_at_aol.com <Sandykayak_at_aol.com> To: timothy.g.mattson_at_intel.com <timothy.g.mattson_at_intel.com>; paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 12:05 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Feathered v Unfeathered paddles >In a message dated 8/11/99 12:45:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >timothy.g.mattson_at_intel.com writes: > ><< And as someone brings up each time we get into this discussion, with proper > technique, you do not "cock the wrist" with each stroke on the > "non-control-hand" side. I know, many of the books out there tell you to do > so, but if you watch a really good paddler who uses a feathered paddle, > you'll see that during a forwawrd stroke, the wrist is in a straight line > with the fore-arm. Adjustments are made in the shoulder and elbow to > properly orient the blade. >> > >Oh, Oh. You don't??? Now I'll have to print this and take the itty-bitty >piece of paper on the water with me and see how I do it vs what you are >suggesting. I'm 99.9% sure that I "rotate" my wrist. Does this increase >the risk of carpal tunnel syndrome which, considering I'm a writer and at the >PC almost all day, looks as if I'll be lucky to escape? > >Sandy Kramer >Miami > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think Timothy meant control hand and not non-control-hand. (Correct me if I'm wrong) Once you loosen the hand grip of your "control hand" (the method I advocate as well) it is almost as easy to let the paddle rotate to 75 or even 90 degrees as to 45 or 60. Lifting the paddle from the elbow provides the rotating momentum, loosening the hand allows the momentum to continue the rotation to where you want the shaft to stop. Control the paddle with the hand nearest the water. This works for unfeathered too. If you don't release the grip on the upper hand of an unfeathered paddle this means you must lift the elbow on the upper hand side to compensate for the natural 45 degree rotation of lifting the paddle into position to start a stroke. An unfeathered paddler doing this looks like a boxer throwing hooks rather than straight punches and lifting the elbow is a lot of extra work. Unfortunately this is how most unfeathered paddlers paddle. Try "low hand" control and letting the upper hand rotate on the shaft with unfeathered as well as feathered for a more efficient and less damaging stroke. Loosen up your grip and relax your fingers on the push, just hooking your fingers around the shaft on the pull is usually all you need for control and helps lessen strain and unnecessary motion on the pulling wrist. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com -----Original Message----- From: Joe Pylka <pylka_at_castle.net> To: Sandykayak_at_aol.com <Sandykayak_at_aol.com>; timothy.g.mattson_at_intel.com <timothy.g.mattson_at_intel.com>; paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 1:10 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Feathered v Unfeathered paddles >><< And as someone brings up each time we get into this discussion, with >proper >> technique, you do not "cock the wrist" with each stroke on the >> "non-control-hand" side. I know, many of the books out there tell you to >do >> so, but if you watch a really good paddler who uses a feathered paddle, >> you'll see that during a forwawrd stroke, the wrist is in a straight line >> with the fore-arm. Adjustments are made in the shoulder and elbow to >> properly orient the blade. >> >> >>Oh, Oh. You don't??? I'm 99.9% sure that I "rotate" my wrist. Does >this increase >>the risk of carpal tunnel syndrome which, considering I'm a writer and at >the >>PC almost all day, looks as if I'll be lucky to escape? >>Sandy Kramer > > > I just grabbed my paddle and looked at what I do. No, I don't >rotate the wrist of my non-control hand, but the control wrist does get >pulled up a little (45 degree feather). But then I don't adjust with >shoulder or elbow either -- that could probably hurt.... What I do is >loosen my grip and let the shaft rotate in my hand. Wrist still stays >straight. > > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Strosaker_at_aol.com <Strosaker_at_aol.com> To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 9:03 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Feathered v Unfeathered paddles Duane Strosaker wrote >I tour and surf with an unfeathered paddle. I think it is more ergonomic and >versatile, because it allows for straight wrists and arms, and for low and >high angle strokes. It is also a lot easier to use for sweep strokes, rolls, >braces, and stern rudders, because the wrists are in more of a neutral >position. All of these things are just as easy with a feathered paddle if one uses low hand control (the hand position is the same as unfeathered--it is only if you are trying to maintain the fixed grip of the control hand that makes any of these more awkward. >Unfeathered paddles are best when the wind is coming from behind >and the sides. Both have different disadvantages in side winds and any push that is gained by unfeathered in a tail wind is likely to be lost ten times over going into the same speed head wind. A strong paddler paddling 4 knots into a 10 knot headwind will have added 10 knots of blade speed to the 10 knot wind for a relative wind of 20 knots. This creates 4 times the pressure on the unfeathered blade than when there is no wind (and the extra drag using an unfeathered paddle in no wind is still far more than a feathered blade slicing through the air at about 2.5 times boat speed). There is virtually no loss for the feathered and considerable for the unfeathered into the wind. Paddling with the same effort downwind might get the boat speed up to 5 or 6 knots but for comparrison purposes we will stay with 4 knots. This means blade speed would be about 10 knots. This would create virtually no drag due to the unfeathered blade sinally doing as well as a feathered. If we keep the speed the same winds higher than 10 knots would add a little benefit to unfeathered paddling but in reallity your boat speed would increase as well meaning it might take 15 knots of tailwind to break even. >The only disadvantage they have is in a strong headwind. Such an overwhelming disadvantage that I cut my first paddle in two and twisted it into a feathered paddle. >I did have to feather my paddle in some severe high headwinds that I recently >encountered, or else I wouldn't have been able to make any headway. As a >result, I now practice paddling, rolling, bracing and other skills with my >paddle in both the feathered and unfeathered positions. It was tricky going >back and forth at first, but it quickly became easy with practice. Now I can >use which position is best for the particular conditions I encounter. You think you can, but I'll bet if you ask a buddy to try to capsize you by surprise sometime you will find you revert to the braces that you have practiced and won't have time to think "which feather am I using today". It is one thing to practice doing it both ways, it is quite another to control your reactive panic brace. >By the way, I don't have any problems surfing with an unfeathered paddle, and >I actually think it is more effective. I even went as far as to cut my one >piece feathered surf paddle in half and put it back together in the >unfeathered position. Overall, I prefer an unfeathered paddle, except in a >severe headwind. During severe wind conditions is not when I'd want to be messing with my reactive paddle brace. >Don't let anyone tell you that you have to feather your >paddle to be a good kayaker. I know a lot of good paddlers who paddle unfeathered but not one good racer (slalom or flatwater) that does. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>>The only disadvantage they have is in a strong headwind. At 08:32 PM 8/11/99 -0700, Matt Broze wrote: > >Such an overwhelming disadvantage that I cut my first paddle in two and >twisted it into a feathered paddle. > More food for thought (or fuel for the fire)... While paddling into a severe headwind is hard work for even a narrow unfeathered paddle (except a storm paddle), one technique that I have often used but have never heard discussed is to adopt a "racing bicycle" posture where you bend at the waist and keep your torso low and extremely close to the deck. If I recall correctly, there is some footage of Greenlanders demonstrating this posture in John Heath's Kayak Qlubben video. This posture does inhibit some torso rotation but it so drastically reduces windage on your body that it makes a tremendous difference in very strong headwinds. I have not found this to be a viable technique for a feathered blade since all the blade rotation would have to be performed by wrist cock alone due to the extremely horizontal angle of the paddle shaft. Of course, this posture gets uncomfortable after a short period of time but it does have its uses. Greg Stamer Orlando, Florida *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, 13 Aug 1999, Peter Osman wrote: What have others found > with hired kayaks - are the paddles usually feathered? Perhaps Elaine could > tell us what they use in N.Uist? Perhaps, if old ladies could remember anything. I'm pretty sure they were feathered. Since you're about to call Niall, maybe you could ask him. By the way, I always wondered why the ww paddles were feathered, too, since wind is almost never a factor there. And now I'm seriously considering defeathering after reading all this. Thanks, guys; I wasn't confused enough as it was. Oh, and the photo of gorgeous Brian Wilson on the back of "Dances with Waves" shows him paddling with what seems to be an unfeathered short wide-bladed paddle. (I finally looked at the paddle instead of G.B.W.) Slainte! e Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com -----Original Message----- Greg Stamer wrote: >While paddling into a severe headwind is hard work for even a narrow >unfeathered paddle (except a storm paddle), one technique that I have often >used but have never heard discussed is to adopt a "racing bicycle" posture >where you bend at the waist and keep your torso low and extremely close to >the deck. If I recall correctly, there is some footage of Greenlanders >demonstrating this posture in John Heath's Kayak Qlubben video. > >This posture does inhibit some torso rotation but it so drastically reduces >windage on your body that it makes a tremendous difference in very strong >headwinds. I have not found this to be a viable technique for a feathered >blade since all the blade rotation would have to be performed by wrist cock >alone due to the extremely horizontal angle of the paddle shaft. Of course, >this posture gets uncomfortable after a short period of time but it does >have its uses. The bicycle racer technique is a good one as the benefit of reduced windage can out weigh the greater power of torso rotation into very strong winds. Funny you should think there is a problem doing this with unfeathered paddles though. I have paddled stooped over for hours into 35 to 40 mile per hour winds using a feathered paddle and little or no wrist rotation. As long as one is willing to rotate either upper hand on the paddle shaft you don't have to bend your wrist during any stroke, high or low. "Low hand control" may take a few hours to learn but I never had a wrist problem since I started paddling this way and I had a serious problem with my "control" wrist before. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:15 AM 8/13/99 +1000, Peter Osman wrote: > >I'm a novice who frequently hires boats so find the above point very >relevant. In Sydney hired kayaks are invariably supplied with feathered >paddles. I've only kayaked once in the US and the paddles were feathered at >that shop too. So it seems appropriate to use feathered paddles on my own >boat, because I don't want to be continually changing styles and enjoy It's especially irritating if you paddle with a left feather, which I do, since it cuts down the carpal tunnel symptoms in my right wrist. Which is why I use a breakdown paddle. I got to thinking about this line of discussion while out on the water tonight. It was rather flat, and rather humid, so I didn't want to paddle too hard, and I got to playing around a little. Just from twisting things around a bit, it seems to me that I have the least wrist motion with about a 20-degree negative feather. Hmmmmmm . . . -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Wes Boyd wrote: > Just from twisting things > around a bit, it seems to me that I have the least wrist motion with about > a 20-degree negative feather. Hmmmmmm . . . I've been experimenting with feather angle a bit and find I prefer a +30 or so angle. I figure my next paddle will be a continuously variable feather bent shaft (AT, but I shudder at the cost - especially after figuring in Canadian dollars!). That way I'll do my cruising at a small angle and switch to a large angle if I have a big headwind. I've tried unfeathered, but find it awkward compared to even a small angle of feather. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Boy, you can sure tell that John Winters is on vacation. We have been discussing paddles for several day now and not once has someone used the term "aspect ratio" :-) Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
servus robert and all paddlers, yes, I am an austrian, living near salzburg and kayaking the adriatic sea (Italy, Croatia) karl > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Lawson [SMTP:lawson_at_unt.edu] > Sent: Sunday, August 15, 1999 9:20 PM > To: Karl.Gradinger_at_ooe.gv.at > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Feathered v Unfeathered paddles > > Karl > > I love the internet because it makes the world smaller. I just > noticed that your address ends w/ .at. Where are you? I guess > Austria. > > Robert > > Karl.Gradinger_at_ooe.gv.at wrote: > > > > I prefer unfeathered paddles because I like symmetric moves. I had > injury > > problems myself and can only stress the necessity of stretching and warm > up > > also for the wrists before, between and after kayaking. Good paddling > karl > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Robert Lawson [SMTP:lawson_at_unt.edu] > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 3:52 AM > > > Cc: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net > > > Subject: [Paddlewise] Feathered v Unfeathered paddles > > > > > > A newbie question- > > > > > > I have recently begun paddling. I had many wrist injuries in my > > > youth and I am concerned about the long term effects of bending > > > my wrist while using a feathered paddle. What are the advantages > > > of feathered over unfeatherd. How much would I risk my wrist to > > > use a feathered paddle? > > > > > > I am interested in river touring w/ mild white water if it is > > > part of the trip. I also hope to do some ocean surfing. Mostly > > > I'm interested in kayaking because I have an injured knee so can > > > not backpack any more and I miss nature. (All those years of > > > Aikido and Ju-jitsu are permanently encoded into my joints) > > > > > > I would appreciate any input from experienced paddles on the > > > respective advantages of feathered and unfeatherd paddles. > > > > > > Robert Lawson > > > > ************************************************************************** > > > * > > > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > > > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > > > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > > > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > > > > ************************************************************************** > > > * *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:01 PDT