Walt wrote: >Also the "pee in the river not on the shore" advise >given to river runners has cleaned up the campsites and shores. >Walt >Park City, UT What?!?!?! Someone downstream has to drink from that river! Don't you think deer, elk, and bears pee on the shore? I think improper disposal of solid waste (#2) and toilet paper is the bigger problem--pee at least 100 feet from water!!!! I don't want to have to hope my MSR filter will filter out the stuff your bladder didn't want anymore!! Peeing in the ocean is a different story than peeing in a "fresh" water source. Shawn -- 0 ____©/______ ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ Shawn W. Baker 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ Baker Brothers mailto://baker_at_montana.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Is this really a problem? Lesseenow, into a 100 cfs stream you're dropping about a liter into 2755 liters. Say it takes 30 seconds to do so. So you've spread your liter into 82,631 liters. After a few dozen yards down the stream, you have some likelihood of getting a molecule or two of that organic matter in a liter. But you filter the water anyway, don't you,,,,,,,, >Walt wrote: >>Also the "pee in the river not on the shore" advise >>given to river runners has cleaned up the campsites and shores. > >What?!?!?! >Someone downstream has to drink from that river! Don't you think deer, >elk, and bears pee on the shore? I think improper disposal of solid >waste (#2) and toilet paper is the bigger problem--pee at least 100 feet >from water!!!! I don't want to have to hope my MSR filter will filter >out the stuff your bladder didn't want anymore!! > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, 28 Sep 1999, Shawn W. Baker wrote: > Peeing in the ocean is a different story than peeing in a "fresh" water > source. The urine of a healthy person is sterile, you know. So you just have to dilute it and no problem. Feces a different matter. e Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shawn W. Baker wrote: > > Walt wrote: > >Also the "pee in the river not on the shore" advise > >given to river runners has cleaned up the campsites and shores. > >Walt > >Park City, UT > > What?!?!?! > Someone downstream has to drink from that river! Don't you think deer, > elk, and bears pee on the shore? I think improper disposal of solid > waste (#2) and toilet paper is the bigger problem--pee at least 100 feet > from water!!!! I don't want to have to hope my MSR filter will filter > out the stuff your bladder didn't want anymore!! > > Peeing in the ocean is a different story than peeing in a "fresh" water > source. > > Shawn A major reason to NOT pee on the shore(fresh or salt area), is the salt content in it. In some areas it can attract animals and they can cause damage by trying to get the salt and minerals. It's not as simple as take on pictures, leave on tracks, anymore. James *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
When I attended Grand Canyon River trip ages ago, the park required us to pee in the water for various reasons - part of it is the extreme useage of each beach and the possibility of the odor accumulation. As someone pointed out, it is sterile and diluted by the massive flow of water. On beaches we recommend people pee below the high tide line. I'll never forget one of my clients in Baja was unhappy with me and wrote on the evaluation "she pees in the same water she washes her dishes in" (that would be the Sea of Cortez) (or Mar Vermillion, as some of the first people called it) Andree > > >Also the "pee in the river not on the shore" advise > > >given to river runners has cleaned up the campsites and shores. > > >Walt > > >Park City, UT > > > > What?!?!?! > > Someone downstream has to drink from that river! Don't you think deer, > > elk, and bears pee on the shore? I think improper disposal of solid > > waste (#2) and toilet paper is the bigger problem--pee at least 100 feet > > from water!!!! I don't want to have to hope my MSR filter will filter > > out the stuff your bladder didn't want anymore!! > > > > Peeing in the ocean is a different story than peeing in a "fresh" water > > source. > A major reason to NOT pee on the shore(fresh or salt area), is the salt > content in it. In some areas it can attract animals and they can cause > damage by trying to get the salt and minerals. Andree Hurley Hurley Design Communications - ICQ# 27469637 On-line Editor - http://www.canoekayak.com Other Kayaking - http://www.onwatersports.com Web Sites for Specialty Businesses - http://www.viewit.com/HDC/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It is frequently necessary to rename a thread as its topic mutates. This was done with this thread, but I just looked at it and wondered if it was really necessary. Off topic, off color..... Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:30 AM 9/28/99 -0600, you wrote: >Walt wrote: >>Also the "pee in the river not on the shore" advise >>given to river runners has cleaned up the campsites and shores. >>Walt >>Park City, UT > >What?!?!?! >Someone downstream has to drink from that river! Don't you think deer, >elk, and bears pee on the shore? I was up on Isle Royale a couple weeks ago. Four of us watched a cow moose and her calf feeding knee deep in the water. The cow got bored with us, took a dump that would put a Holstien to shame, then took a whiz. I've seen electric bilge pumps that don't put out that well. Question, then: does a moose piss in the lake? One of our guys commented, "That's reason number 23 to use a water filter." -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Two other points: 1) Human skin is also an excretory organ ( just lick you fore arm on a sweaty day for a strong dose of electrolytes,onion & garlic, and many other compounds. So....must I insist you take a shower before you roll your boat? (GRIN). And as to those neoprene clad feet...yeeeccchhhhh. 2) I prefer to think of "healthy water" whether in a stream,river,or lake, as a living organism that both breathes (exchanges gases with the atmosphere) and filtrates its biological load via sedimentation and percolation. Sand in particular traps organic debris just as a ceramic filter does in an MSR water works. BTW, I spent 5 weeks paddling in NWT this summer. The first time I have drunk untreated water in 20 years! What a luxury!! Right now I am working in Memphis TN, and living just 600 yards from the Mississippi River. I would not want to have THAT water touch my skin for more than a few minutes. :) -----Original Message----- From: Elaine Harmon <eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu> To: Shawn W. Baker <baker_at_montana.com> Cc: Paddlewise <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net>; Walt Chudleigh <Wchudleigh_at_sisna.com> Date: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 11:33 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Where to Pee (was: Saturation Point) >On Tue, 28 Sep 1999, Shawn W. Baker wrote: > >> Peeing in the ocean is a different story than peeing in a "fresh" water >> source. > >The urine of a healthy person is sterile, you know. So you just have to >dilute it and no problem. Feces a different matter. e > >Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/28/99 7:54:05 PM, cramer_at_coe.uga.edu writes: >>Off topic, off color. OK, so if your pee is healthy, its sterile, but if you take vitamins, its off color anyway, and then to top it all off, your saturating the beach, and I really have a headache from all this..... Scott Holdin it till the verdict is in, please hurry..... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shawn W. Baker wrote: > Someone downstream has to drink from that river! Don't you think deer, > elk, and bears pee on the shore? I think improper disposal of solid > waste (#2) and toilet paper is the bigger problem--pee at least 100 feet > from water!!!! I don't want to have to hope my MSR filter will filter > out the stuff your bladder didn't want anymore!! > > Peeing in the ocean is a different story than peeing in a "fresh" water > source. Well, things are probably more complicated than either the "don't pee in the river" folks or the "do pee in the river" folks believe. I've had an extensive, running dialog with our biologist at work about this. Here is what I have gleaned: ------- Fresh water: 1. A healthy, non-virally-infected person's urine is sterile. It can't hurt you to drink water contaminated with this kind of urine, so long as it is diluted enough (tenfold is enough), even if you do not filter it (assuming no other pathogen sources). 2. Urine from somebody who carries a bacterial infection in his/her bladder (or similar body parts) will contaminate fresh water. Filter it, however, and it is safe. 3. Urine from a person who carries *some* kinds of *viral* infections *may* contaminate fresh water, though to reach concentrations which would be a hazard to health, the urine would have to somehow escape the usual dilution which occurs in larger rivers. (Not talking about brooks and rivulets.) I believe that hepatitis is the major virus of concern, here. ------- Salt water (not worried about drinking -- just disease transmission via skin contact or adventitious mucous membrane contact): 1. Almost no pathological bacteria from humans survive long in salt water. Urine contamination should be a non-entity *for bacteria.* 2. Viruses? Jury is out on that one. Probably viruses survive less well in salt water than in fresh water, but the biologist says he does not know of studies in that direction. Could be some slight possibility of hepatitis transmission via salt water, but the likelihood is smaller than via fresh water (see above). Bottom line: if you plan to drink it, filter it. If the small likelihood of catching hepatitis concerns you, add one of the iodine (or similar) post-filters. Peeing in rivers (not rivulets) in crowded areas of the SW USA is the currently accepted practice. Many folks who float such rivers treat the river water (with flocculents to settle the silt, followed several hours later with ordinary old bleach), and then drink it. I do not believe there is any epidemiology to support the notion that this practice has infected people with hepatitis, *in this country.* In countries where sanitation practices are worse, all bets are off, mainly due to fecal transmission of viruses/etc., not urine. Please do not regard this as a medical opinion. YMMV -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dang! Y'all mean t' say that those liquid containment tanks at the back end of them jet skis ain't ther' fer us ta piss in? Cheers, Culpeper Dave Kruger wrote: > Well, things are probably more complicated than either the "don't pee in the > river" folks or the "do pee in the river" folks believe. I've had an > extensive, running dialog with our biologist at work about this. Here is what > I have gleaned: --snip-- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shawn W. Baker wrote: > > Someone downstream has to drink from that river! Don't you think deer, > elk, and bears pee on the shore? I think improper disposal of solid > waste (#2) and toilet paper is the bigger problem--pee at least 100 feet > from water!!!! I don't want to have to hope my MSR filter will filter > out the stuff your bladder didn't want anymore!! > > Peeing in the ocean is a different story than peeing in a "fresh" water > source. Shawn- although it looks like you are from Montana I think we're talking about different rivers. 1) Nobody drinks downstream from the rivers I'm describing- the Colorado, Green, San Juan, Dolores. I don't think there are any cities using Colorado river water for drinking below the Grand Canyon. 2) Your MSR filter would clog in about 10 seconds if you tried to pump this water. It is western desert river water full of suspended sand the color of chocolate milk. Visibility is about 1/2". 3) It rarely rains other than occasional thunderstorms. The smell of accumulated urine in the bushes near the few level campsites reminded me of eastern city stairwells when I first moved out here from New England 4) Rarely can you get 100 feet away from the river due to vertical cliffs. Seriously- BLM rangers on all of these rivers and I think most other western big water rivers instruct all river runners to pee in the river. It seemed illogical to me at first- but now I completely agree. BTW I grew up near Philadelphia and our drinking water came from the Schuykill river downstream from several large cities and their sewage plants. It had been recyled in various ways several times by the time we got it! Walt Park City, Utah *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, 28 Sep 1999 16:27:56 -0500 "Rich Dempsey" <rdempsey_at_wyoming.com> writes: <<snip>> >Right now I am working in Memphis TN, and living just 600 yards from the Mississippi River. I >would not want to have THAT water touch my skin for more than a few minutes. :) > Hey, easy, easy now ! The Big Muddy isn't all THAT bad. I'm not familiar with the area around Memphis, but further down many of the old ox-bow lakes and surrounding backwaters are pretty nice. Or, head out west of Memphis into Arkansas and you'll be smack dab in the middle of a migratory flyway you won't believe. Also, you are probably 80 miles from a real nice river in NE Ark on Missouri border ...the Current River. The Spring River is a bit west of that with Mammoth Spring pumping out 9 million gallons per hour of water which is a lot cooler AND cleaner than that around Memphis there. ...Happy trails 8-) ...adieu ...Peyton (Louisiana) ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Okay; I stand corrected! I just won't think about where all the "water" came from if I end up with a mouthful and noseful when rolling!!! Shawn -- 0 ____©/______ ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ Shawn W. Baker 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ Baker Brothers mailto://baker_at_montana.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> >> Peeing in the ocean is a different story than peeing in a "fresh" water >> source. > >Well, things are probably more complicated than either the "don't pee in the >river" folks or the "do pee in the river" folks believe. For an interesting and informative read on this topic (and related activities), try "How to Shit in the Woods" by Kathleen Meyer, ISBN 0-89815-319-0. Sea kayaking does get a mention, it is not woods specific. The only error in it that I have found is where it suggests that New Zealand is giardia free - sorry, beavers and bears we don't have, but giardia we do! Allan Singleton Hamilton, NZ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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