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From: Jim Tynan <kayakbound_at_worldnet.att.net>
subject: [Paddlewise] Patagonia's Nemo dry top
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 11:25:34 -0500
I'm considering the purchase of a new Patagonia Nemo dry top for $230.  It's
last year's model and comes without the gusseted collar, but with gusseted
sleeves, and it's about $69 less than this year's "new and improved"
version.

I'm told by the retailer, an experienced whitewater kayaker, that it is the
model he and others prefer.  His claim is that the gasket is easier to
replace in the non-collared model and the collar is basically useless.  I've
never used one before, but from appearance alone, his comments make sense,
but I'm wondering about the collar issue.  Hence, my questions to the list!

Is the gusseted collar vital on a dry top?  Aside from adding some
protection from the elements and no doubt a bit of warmth to the neck area,
does it serve any other purpose?  For those owning the non-collared model,
any regrets?

Thanks in advance for everyone's input!

Jim Tynan
Pike Road AL


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From: Doug Lloyd <dlloyd_at_bc.sympatico.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Patagonia's Nemo dry top
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 12:45:16 -0700
I prefer the extra collar, as it imparts an option to allow you to cut the
latex gasket a bit looser than normal, but back-up the seal with a
secondary closure. As a rule, latex seals are not very hardy, and I prefer
models that have these secondary closures.

BC'in Ya
Doug Lloyd


At 11:25 AM 10/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I'm considering the purchase of a new Patagonia Nemo dry top for $230.  It's
>last year's model and comes without the gusseted collar, but with gusseted
>sleeves, and it's about $69 less than this year's "new and improved"
>version.
>
>I'm told by the retailer, an experienced whitewater kayaker, that it is the
>model he and others prefer.  His claim is that the gasket is easier to
>replace in the non-collared model and the collar is basically useless.  I've
>never used one before, but from appearance alone, his comments make sense,
>but I'm wondering about the collar issue.  Hence, my questions to the list!
>
>Is the gusseted collar vital on a dry top?  Aside from adding some
>protection from the elements and no doubt a bit of warmth to the neck area,
>does it serve any other purpose?  For those owning the non-collared model,
>any regrets?
>
>Thanks in advance for everyone's input!
>
>Jim Tynan
>Pike Road AL
>
>
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From: <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Patagonia's Nemo dry top
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 15:54:08 -0700
Doug Lloyd wrote:
> 
> I prefer the extra collar, as it imparts an option to allow you to cut the
> latex gasket a bit looser than normal, but back-up the seal with a
> secondary closure. As a rule, latex seals are not very hardy, and I prefer
> models that have these secondary closures.
> 
> BC'in Ya
> Doug Lloyd

Agreed. The secondary collar also helps reduce UV damage to the latex
collar by covering it up some.  It also does feel warmer around the neck
than cold latex.  It it is a neoprene secondary collar it will do what
Doug suggests, i.e. be a backup albeit at a somewhat reduced
effectiveness compared to the latex one.  If it is not neoprene or other
stretchy material (they are using Darlexx stretchy non-absorbing
material more these days) it will not be as effective.

ralph
-- 
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"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
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From: Elaine Harmon <eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Patagonia's Nemo dry top
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 16:37:28 -0400 (EDT)
Hi guys, that reminds me: If you wear a dry top with a farmer John
wetsuit, how good is the seal at the waist? Are you substantially better
off with a dry top than with a neoprene jacket, that is? e

Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu

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From: Richard Culpeper <culpeper_at_tbaytel.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Patagonia's Nemo dry top
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 16:29:34 -0400
An outer collar is very useful for when portaging through heavy bush, where snags
tear latex.

Cheers,
Richard Culpeper



Doug Lloyd wrote:

> I prefer the extra collar, as it imparts an option to allow you to cut the
> latex gasket a bit looser than normal, but back-up the seal with a
> secondary closure. As a rule, latex seals are not very hardy, and I prefer
> models that have these secondary closures.
>
> BC'in Ya
> Doug Lloyd
>
> At 11:25 AM 10/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >I'm considering the purchase of a new Patagonia Nemo dry top for $230.  It's
> >last year's model and comes without the gusseted collar, but with gusseted
> >sleeves, and it's about $69 less than this year's "new and improved"
> >version.
> >
> >I'm told by the retailer, an experienced whitewater kayaker, that it is the
> >model he and others prefer.  His claim is that the gasket is easier to
> >replace in the non-collared model and the collar is basically useless.  I've
> >never used one before, but from appearance alone, his comments make sense,
> >but I'm wondering about the collar issue.  Hence, my questions to the list!
> >
> >Is the gusseted collar vital on a dry top?  Aside from adding some
> >protection from the elements and no doubt a bit of warmth to the neck area,
> >does it serve any other purpose?  For those owning the non-collared model,
> >any regrets?
> >
> >Thanks in advance for everyone's input!
> >
> >Jim Tynan
> >Pike Road AL
> >
> >
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> >
> >
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From: Doug Lloyd <dlloyd_at_bc.sympatico.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Patagonia's Nemo dry top
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 21:42:38 -0700
>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 20:31:06 -0700
>To: Elaine Harmon <eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu>
>From: Doug Lloyd <dlloyd_at_bc.sympatico.ca>
>Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Patagonia's Nemo dry top
>
>At 04:37 PM 10/10/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>Hi guys, that reminds me: If you wear a dry top with a farmer John
>>wetsuit, how good is the seal at the waist? Are you substantially better
>>off with a dry top than with a neoprene jacket, that is? e
>>
>>Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu
> 
>
>Elaine,
>A dry top has advantages that far outway a normal paddling jacket with
neoprene wrist seals, if that is what you are talking about. A good dry top
seals at the wrists much more effectively than neoprene or velcro
arrangements. For winter paddling, keeping water from entering up the
sleeves is important. The neck seal is obviously better with a dry top's
latex seal, rather than other arrangements, but may be a bit much for
touring. A popular jacket these days has become a dry top with a good waist
seal, latex wrist seals, but a regular neck seal, so providing more
comfortable recreational paddling.
>
>For immersion protection and/or whitewater type kayaking pursuits, the
better waist seal of a dry top is superior, but water will eventually get
by the seal between the jacket and the Farmer Jane. A dry suit is better in
this regard, as is a two piece dry suit which better mates at the waist.
>
>Oh, another thing to consider with dry suits: some of the newer models
have zipper arrangements whereby the seated paddler can and may unzip
easily due to the front entry, and drop the top portion down around your
waist if things get too hot -- like when a high class female model paddles
up near Ralph in NY Harbour :-) The older, rear entry dry suits did not
facilitate this option. Whether this is a wise manouver is a different
question. 
>
>I don't wear a dry suit, as Vancouver Island is riddled with barnacles,
and a tear in the suit, if I were to bail, could pose a serious problem, as
could a blown gasket. 
>
>While were on the subject, does anyone reading this post know about
Titanium flecks in wetsuits. They are supposed to reflect more heat back to
the wearer. Is this a marketing ploy, or do I need to ask?
>
>BC'in Ya
>Doug Lloyd 
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From: <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Patagonia's Nemo dry top
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 09:28:02 -0700
Doug Lloyd wrote:

> A dry top has advantages that far outway a normal paddling jacket with
> neoprene wrist seals, if that is what you are talking about. A good dry top
> seals at the wrists much more effectively than neoprene or velcro
> arrangements. For winter paddling, keeping water from entering up the
> sleeves is important. The neck seal is obviously better with a dry top's
> latex seal, rather than other arrangements, but may be a bit much for
> touring. A popular jacket these days has become a dry top with a good waist
> seal, latex wrist seals, but a regular neck seal, so providing more
> comfortable recreational paddling.

A real bargain in the latter is the Kokotat Goretex version of what is
described.  It has latex at the wrists with overlapped velcroed neoprene
sleeve ends that helps protect the latex and gives you a backup if the
latex were to rip or wear out suddenly.  At the neck, this top does not
have latex but rather a velcroed  Darlexx adjustable collar (or its
eqivalent) which is like neoprene but doesn't absorb any water into the
material itself and actually provides a tighter fit than neoprene.  The
waist is just about as good as these waist seals can get without
resorting to overlapping latex matchup with pants.  It costs under $200
which is a great price for any Goretex jacket let alone one with latex
wrists and all the nice features of a paddling jacket.


> >Oh, another thing to consider with dry suits: some of the newer models
> have zipper arrangements whereby the seated paddler can and may unzip
> easily due to the front entry, and drop the top portion down around your
> waist if things get too hot -- like when a high class female model paddles
> up near Ralph in NY Harbour :-) 

Speaking of this, I was informed back channel by a friend that the
regular free trip to the Statue of Liberty from the Downtown Boathouse
took place yesterday despite the rain and three Swedish good looking
ladies went on it.  Back at the Boathouse they proceeded to strip off
their wet gear to total naked right in the middle of the place.  My
friend, upon seeing this, walked right into the bow of a rack stored
kayak.  This will teach me for being a fair-weather paddler! :-)

> >I don't wear a dry suit, as Vancouver Island is riddled with barnacles,
> and a tear in the suit, if I were to bail, could pose a serious problem, as
> could a blown gasket.

I mentioned this before but as Doug knows in the early days of dry suits
there was a concern that a tear would seriously compromise the suit.  As
far as I know, this has not been the case.  The materials at one point
in the European suits was almost shirt weight thin but most dry suits
are made of super duper weight nylon and gaskets are generally covered
except some companies not doing it at the neck.  Still, I have torn
paddling pants made of similar material when sitting up on a dock and
hitting a jagged nail head.  So....perhaps always a potential problem. 
I know that Jack Martin on this list advises wearing one of the Polartec
watersport fleece suits under your dry suit as a second defensive layer
were a drysuit to tear in its material or gasket.
> >
> >While were on the subject, does anyone reading this post know about
> Titanium flecks in wetsuits. They are supposed to reflect more heat back to
> the wearer. Is this a marketing ploy, or do I need to ask?

My understanding is that it does work to a degree.

ralph


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
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From: <Bhansen97_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Patagonia's Nemo dry top
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 09:38:08 EDT
Elaine - The seal of my drytop with my farmer John is imperfect, but good 
enough. It doesn't allow seepage of water unless I roll, but during rolling 
practice a little bit of water will seep through. I'm asuming that it gets 
through the place where the inner bungie meets the zipper line. Still, it's a 
huge improvement over my normal paddling jacket, though it does tend to be 
hotter. - Bill Hansen   
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From: Doug Lloyd <dlloyd_at_bc.sympatico.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Patagonia's Nemo dry top
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 09:07:31 -0700
>Doug Lloyd wrote:
Doug wrote:
<big snip>I don't wear a dry suit, as Vancouver Island is riddled with
barnacles,
and a tear in the suit, if I were to bail, could pose a serious problem, as
could a blown gasket.

Ralph commented:
<snip>I mentioned this before but as Doug knows in the early days of dry suits
>there was a concern that a tear would seriously compromise the suit.  As
>far as I know, this has not been the case.  The materials at one point
>in the European suits was almost shirt weight thin but most dry suits
>are made of super duper weight nylon and gaskets are generally covered
>except some companies not doing it at the neck.  Still, I have torn
>paddling pants made of similar material when sitting up on a dock and
>hitting a jagged nail head.  So....perhaps always a potential problem. 
>I know that Jack Martin on this list advises wearing one of the Polartec
>watersport fleece suits under your dry suit as a second defensive layer
>were a drysuit to tear in its material or gasket.

Ralph has a point in that the newer drysuits are a darn sight better than
the earlier versions, _if you stay with a reputable manufacturer_.
Unfortunately, lightweight material models are still being made by various
private label companies, usually as part of a local wetsuit companies
lineup. They show up at sales from time to time, at bargain prices. Some
companies produce far superior drysuits than other, so buyer beware. My
point was that it is still an issue in your immersion protection strategy -
think through your intended use, will the suit stand up to normal wear and
tear, does in have reinforced knee protection for kneeling on the beach
while loading your boat, is the seat area reinforced, etc. What are you
going to do if it does leak.

Still, I'd rather have newbies picking up cheap suits, rather than have
them out there in the usual garb of boots, fleece, and rain pants, at least
as far as off season paddling is concerned. But as always, do whatever the
heck you want (flame prevention disclaimer).

BC'in Ya
Doug Lloyd  
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