Allan Singleton wrote: > Matt Broze wrote: > > But if I was paddling in New Zealand it would be upside down (but so would > I). > > > > Now you know why I have never bothered learning to roll! I have never learned how to roll, either. But I have never tried very hard and have less of an incentive to do so because of being in folding kayaks. All of them actually can be rolled, some easier than others, but it tends to be a deliberate, calculated act rather than one of necessity, the exception being something like the Feathercraft Khatsalano (all 3 or 4 versions that have been made), which, in that respect, acts more like a hardshell than say a Nautiraid Raid 1 or Klepper single. Having said that, however, I do dabble in learning how to roll now and then. I tried early on about 10 years ago when I thought I would be using single hardshells but then stopped the effort when I saw the light in the folding singles. But of late, I have tried again. I am now in the process of being real earnest about it over the winter, thanks to the kind efforts of Gabriel Romeu, a fellow PaddleWiser and friend, who is going out of his way to get me to lessons with some of the best rolling instructors in the business, at least on the East Coast. I still lack the driving incentive because of what I paddle. If I had stayed in hardshells, I would most definitely have learned how to roll. I would never own a hardshell unless I was on the road to developing a roll. Funny how our various schools of thought can co-exist, i.e. those who see this as a wet sport (one of local great local instructors, Ray Killen, ends his all his mail with "Stay Wet!) and those, like me, who believe in staying dry and on top. While there are some in the "Stay Wet!" school (not at all Ray) tend to deny the legitimacy of the Stay Dry school (I hear comments, not always in jest, about when am I going to get into a "real" sea kayak), I suspect a lot more understanding all around is what prevails these days thanks in great part to forums such as Paddlewise. ralph diaz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 09:20:49 -0800 >To: ralph diaz <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com> >From: Doug Lloyd <dlloyd_at_bc.sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling was Re: How do you hold your paddle? > >Ralph Diaz wrote: ><snip>Funny how our various schools of thought can co-exist, i.e. those who see this >>as a wet sport (one of local great local instructors, Ray Killen, ends his all >>his mail with "Stay Wet!) and those, like me, who believe in staying dry and on >>top. While there are some in the "Stay Wet!" school (not at all Ray) tend to >>deny the legitimacy of the Stay Dry school (I hear comments, not always in jest, >>about when am I going to get into a "real" sea kayak), I suspect a lot more >>understanding all around is what prevails these days thanks in great part to >>forums such as Paddlewise. > >Last Spring I was headed up to Bella Bella on board a BC ferry. Seas were huge and a gale was raging as we left the protection of Queen Charlotte Strait (near the spot we would subsequently be rescued from one week later on the way back down by kayak). I was barfing serendipitously here and there as the ferry plowed through the swells. I went to the info center to see if they had any medication (mine was packed). The lady started talking to me about kayaking. I was bragging about being tough, having all these skills, various rolls, etc - which must have sounded a bit funny, given my ashen visage. Anyway, the clerk went on to tell me a story about a retired University professor from the Pacific North West who came up every few years to paddle various routes along the inside and outside passages. She said he was in his late 70's, had paddled all over the world. She listed various exotic local. The Professor had made a real impression on this young lady. She said he was very low-key, never went to symposiums or did slide shows or wrote articles, and that he didn't have a lot of skill or equipment - just his tattered, trusty old Klepper which he did a lot of field repairs to. She knew a fair bit about kayaking herself, and said this old man stood in stark contrast to most modern kayakers. I'd love to meet this old guy some day. He sounds like a "real" kayaker. > >BC'in Ya >Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Ralph Diaz wrote: > > > I have never learned how to roll, either. But I have never tried very hard and > have less of an incentive to do so because of being in folding kayaks. The actual reason that I have not learned to roll is because I normally paddle with my wife in a fairly wide double. If you look at the designer's web page, www.sissonkayaks.co.nz and click on Which Kayak, you will find a table comparing his various designs. In the primary stability column, where 1 = low and 10 = high, the fastest multisport kayaks rate at 2 or 3, and the Nordkapp gets an 8. Our Southern Light double rates at 15! I have seen pictures of doubles being rolled, and no doubt it makes a good party trick, but it would require more skill and co-ordination than we are ever likely to muster, and probably a narrower kayak. We have practised tipping it over, righting and re-entry etc, as I am not silly enough to think that we will never be caught out and find ourselves upside down (or is that right side up?), but so far we have avoided conditions bad enough to have us join the "wet sport" brigade. Allan Singleton Hamilton NZ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Allan Singleton - wrote >The actual reason that I have not learned to roll is because I normally >paddle with my wife in a fairly wide double. If you look at the designer's >web page, www.sissonkayaks.co.nz and click on Which Kayak, you will find a >table comparing his various designs. In the primary stability column, where >1 = low and 10 = high, the fastest multisport kayaks rate at 2 or 3, and the >Nordkapp gets an 8. Our Southern Light double rates at 15! So there I am at one of the first NZ sea kayak forums, out on the bar at Mapua and there's a yell from Graham Sisson, or his front paddler, as they try to avoid a single (Paul Caffyn?) as they surf in on a big swell, both paddlers leaned the same way and there is a Southern Light upside-down. Sisson gets in and his front paddler very gingerly eases in. The front paddler could have got on board and walk down the length of the kayak as it was now in flat water and yes, they are stable - usually. A year later, next forum, Sisson is handing out neoprene straps for glasses (with suitable advertising logo), he having lost his in the previous year's mishap, "Expensive forum, that one." he says. NOTE the Southern Light was originally designed (or part of the reason) to be paddled across the Tasman Sea by Paul Caffyn and one other. 1200 miles. Was for a number of years the main rental double available, has a canoe hull with "sea kayak" ends, doesn't grip the water so is hard to turn through the wind. It is the "super-tanker" of kayaks. Alex . . Alex (Sandy) Ferguson Chemistry Department University of Canterbury New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Allan Singleton wrote: > > I have seen pictures of doubles being rolled, and no doubt it makes a good > party trick, but it would require more skill and co-ordination than we are > ever likely to muster, and probably a narrower kayak. I had heard of the double Klepper being rolled and finally saw two guys doing so a few months ago. They both came out of whitewater paddling. Their first attempt bombed. But then, after emptying the boat, they did two rolls in a row flawlessly. But I agree with what you said about it being a party trick, i.e. most likely not a viable thing to do when not absolutely setup or ready for it. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>From: ralph diaz <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com> > > > I have seen pictures of doubles being rolled, and no doubt it makes a >good > > party trick, but it would require more skill and co-ordination than we >are > > ever likely to muster, and probably a narrower kayak. >I had heard of the double Klepper being rolled and finally saw two guys >doing so a few months ago. They both came out of whitewater paddling. >Their first attempt bombed. But then, after emptying the boat, they did >two rolls in a row flawlessly. But I agree with what you said about it >being a party trick, i.e. most likely not a viable thing to do when not >absolutely setup or ready for it. > >ralph diaz I've rolled double sea kayaks successfully, but only with another person who was a strong roller in their own right, and with cued timing to go over and come up. (I've also rolled a double alone by putting a cockpit cover over the front, empty cockpit - I've always thought it would mean I'd really "arrived" as a roller if I could have a passive front cockpit occupant simply hug the deck while I rolled the double - I haven't "arrived" yet!) As for it being just a party trick. I do think rolling a double is propably limited for sea kayaking, but I was a safety diver for the international white water events in Ontario about a decade ago. The teams in the double w.w. kayaks and double C-2s could and did roll "for real" if they were knocked over during a run. Philip Torrens N49°16' W123°06' *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:06 AM 11/23/99 -0800, Philip Torrens wrote: >>From: ralph diaz <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com> >> >As for it being just a party trick. I do think rolling a double is propably >limited for sea kayaking, but I was a safety diver for the international >white water events in Ontario about a decade ago. The teams in the double >w.w. kayaks and double C-2s could and did roll "for real" if they were >knocked over during a run. I went to the MooseFest river festival this year and heard that there were a couple of guys that ran the race on the bottom Moose with it's 5 class V drops (the first is over 48' Fowlersville Falls) in a Topo Duo. The Topo Duo is a 12' long, 24" wide tandem whitewater boat. Apparently, going into the last drop (a really nasty series of three drops at 5', 10', and 15') their time would have been good enough for second place but they flipped. I heard that they rolled twice but got flipped in a hole a third time and exited. That added nine minutes to their time and they ended up in last place. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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