I was at REI yesterday, and saw an interesting idea for a kayak. It was powered by a bicycle crank turning a propeller. Seemed like it had higher freeboard, hatches front and rear, and an open cockpit, sculpted to pedal recumbent style. very large gear on the pedal crank, very small gear on the propeller shaft. Steering was by a essentially vertical handle sticking up on both sides of the cockpit, tilt either handle side to side moved a rudder. The stern and transom was flat across the rear, and the bottom of the hull extended out past the transom to provide a shelf over the rudder and propeller. At $2800 US dollars and all fiber glass, not for me, but if it could be adapted to stitch and glue, it might be interesting. The sales clerk claimed that it was a very fast boat, which sort of makes sense, since you are using leg muscles rather than arm muscles to power it. dave -- Dave Uebele (daveu_at_sptddog.com) Spotted Dog Systems http://sptddog.com/daveu.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ahem... Dave wrote: > I was at REI yesterday, and saw an interesting idea for > a kayak. It was powered by a bicycle crank turning a propeller. > Seemed like it had higher freeboard, hatches front and rear, > and an open cockpit, sculpted to pedal recumbent style. > very large gear on the pedal crank, very small gear on the propeller shaft. ... might be interesting to balance oneself in that one... hips, feet and thigh moving all the time. How are you supposed to support yourself? Seems like a flat-water thing. (snip..) > At $2800 US dollars and all fiber glass, not for me, but if > it could be adapted to stitch and glue, it might be interesting. > The sales clerk claimed that it was a very fast boat, which sort of > makes sense, since you are using leg muscles rather than > arm muscles to power it. Uhh... quite an expensive one... Paddling movements are supposed to come from the the whole body, right? Not just arms. At least that is my zen thing: old mortal clay in total co-operation with my weary soul, man! Anyhow, Dave, it sounds fairly interesting. How wide was this... the THING ;-) ????? Cheers, Ari "Home of the Traditional & Famous Scandinavian Skinny-dipping [TM]" Finland - Europe *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 11/24/1999 1:13:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, asaarto_at_lpt.fi writes: << I was at REI yesterday, and saw an interesting idea for > a kayak. It was powered by a bicycle crank turning a propeller. >> Check out www.Hobie.com and look at the Mirage Sandy Kramer Miami *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Well, sandykayak wrote: > In a message dated 11/24/1999 1:13:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, > asaarto_at_lpt.fi writes: > > << I was at REI yesterday, and saw an interesting idea for > > a kayak. It was powered by a bicycle crank turning a propeller. >> > > Check out www.Hobie.com and look at the Mirage > > Sandy Kramer > Miami > Sorry -it was not me. Dave did send the original mail and saw the THING. My tender sarcasm did not pass through ;-) Hmm. I did visit the web-site, but was not able to get through the launch site (introduction page). Maybe they do have filters against sulky conservative solo expedition types????? Never has been able to accept the kayaks with sails, or SOTīs... my heart bleeds... Cheers, Ari "Home of the Traditional & Famous Scandinavian Skinny-dipping [TM]" Finland - Europe *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I watched the Hobie Mirage version of the pedal powered SOT kayak go by, and commented that I'd like to try it. The guy was kicking butt, going about 6 Kt, I guess. The other kayakers in earshot snorted or guffawed at my favorable comment toward such a non-traditional craft. Do you suppose that first Inuit who picked up a broad stick and moved it through the water faced the same reaction from traditionalists -- "Look at that dork, moving his bijdarka through the water with a stick! Real kayakers paddle with their hands! Pinewood isn't even native to this region!" jerry. At 08:08 AM 11/24/1999 -0800, Dave Uebele wrote: >I was at REI yesterday, and saw an interesting idea for >a kayak. It was powered by a bicycle crank turning a propeller. >Seemed like it had higher freeboard, hatches front and rear, >and an open cockpit, sculpted to pedal recumbent style. >very large gear on the pedal crank, very small gear on the propeller shaft. > >Steering was by a essentially vertical handle sticking up >on both sides of the cockpit, tilt either handle side to side >moved a rudder. > >The stern and transom was flat across the rear, and the bottom of the >hull extended out past the transom to provide a shelf >over the rudder and propeller. > >At $2800 US dollars and all fiber glass, not for me, but if >it could be adapted to stitch and glue, it might be interesting. >The sales clerk claimed that it was a very fast boat, which sort of >makes sense, since you are using leg muscles rather than >arm muscles to power it. > >dave >-- >Dave Uebele (daveu_at_sptddog.com) Spotted Dog Systems >http://sptddog.com/daveu.html >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jerry wrote: > Do you suppose that first Inuit who picked up a broad stick and >moved it through the water faced the same reaction from >traditionalists -- "Look at that dork, moving his bijdarka through >the water with a stick! Still, the original question about balancing and supporting oneself is not answered :-? ...Are you supposed to use straps? Uhh... Is the coming cabin fever already heating up our PīWise list? I have been following the Hand Holding thread Duane flamed up with his comment. I am out tomorrow. It is all over gray here and the temps dropped last weekend few degrees below zero Centigrades. It means below 40 F. Few inches of snow, it is wonderful to paddle when it is falling. Do you suppose, any of you, that someone could use a kayak with sails here? Or a pedal powered SOT? Cheers, Ari *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
asaarto wrote: > > Jerry wrote: > > > > Do you suppose that first Inuit who picked up a broad stick and > > > >moved it through the water faced the same reaction from > > > >traditionalists -- "Look at that dork, moving his bijdarka through > > > >the water with a stick! > > > Still, the original question about balancing and supporting oneself > > > is not answered :-? ...Are you supposed to use straps? Uhh... > Those are all valid questions. What is needed is a discussion group to help share knowledge of this new type of craft. I hear that Jackie is working up a new listserver called PedalWise. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I am out tomorrow. It is all over gray here and the temps dropped > > > last weekend few degrees below zero Centigrades. It means below > > > 40 F. Few inches of snow, it is wonderful to paddle when it is falling. > > > > > > Do you suppose, any of you, that someone could use a kayak with > > > sails here? Without a doubt! I don't understand why you would ask the question, doesn't anyone around there know how to sail? Tell me Ari if the conditions described below sound as difficult as what you describe above. I expect your words are intended just to provoke those of us who are not limited by our skills to one mode of propulsion, but I'll bite anyway.;-) I know a man who has kayaked the NW Passage the last two seasons in a Klepper Aerius I with sail rig. Conditions were sometimes like you describe or worse, only very windy. The Inuit call this year the one that summer never came. During one 400 mile stretch Jon Waterman found the conditions too rough and windy to paddle most of the time so he sailed instead. I quote from his trip report that I received this fall. "When I returned in July, I was horrified to find winter skies and stubborn seaice blocking the main Elu Inlet portage. The wind blew constantly out of the north—across vast plains of sea ice—effectively refrigerating the arctic. I was lucky, no doubt, but for this demanding passage, I also had two years of tricks up my sleeve. I knew what I could get away with. Nor did it hurt that my equipment was state-of-the art. Vital to my success: a dry suit—which I wore all but one day this summer (and I regretted that wet day immensely). Also, a hikeout sailing seat atop the klepper kayak, which allowed me to see over the waves and reduce the heeling pressure on the sponsons by dynamic leaning. Getting to Gjoa Haven was simply a battle. For two weeks I wondered if I would be forced to turn back because of the big seas. I was pushed (literally—with the sails—and figuratively) to my limits just staying warm and making miles.For 400 miles from Elu Inlet to the village of Gjoa Haven, I only paddled perhaps 70 miles because of this wind—I could always count on sailing my kayak." And later: "I rode a westerly gale into Taloyoak and since the waves were covering and crashing over my kayak, several villagers watching me surf into the harbor thought that I was riding a windsurfer!" Any in the US that are interested in trips like this can see some of it on a couple of television specials. The first one is scheduled for: January 16, 5 pm to 6 pm, on NBC. A two hour special will air in the spring on Outdoor Life Network. There will be a book published due out January 2001 for those who enjoy reading about arctic kayak travel, by paddle or sail. Good sailing Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark: Jon Waterman's Arctic adventure sounds truly amazing. Folks like him who venture into the cold, and there are plenty of PaddleWisers who do, have my admiration. Do you have any detail on the sail rig he used on his Klepper? I presume he used one of your Batwings? Has he written any articles one how he prepared for his adventure; in particular the gear he chose? Do you have any more detail on the book? Is Jon writing it himself? And do you have any more detail on the television special? Is it just on his journey? Regards, PJ At 04:59 PM 11/24/99 +0000, you wrote: >> I am out tomorrow. It is all over gray here and the temps dropped >> >> >> last weekend few degrees below zero Centigrades. It means below >> >> >> 40 F. Few inches of snow, it is wonderful to paddle when it is falling. >> >> >> >> >> >> Do you suppose, any of you, that someone could use a kayak with >> >> >> sails here? > >Without a doubt! I don't understand why you would ask the question, >doesn't anyone around there know how to sail? Tell me Ari if the >conditions described below sound as difficult as what you describe >above. I expect your words are intended just to provoke those of us who >are not limited by our skills to one mode of propulsion, but I'll bite >anyway.;-) >I know a man who has kayaked the NW Passage the last two seasons in a >Klepper Aerius I with sail rig. Conditions were sometimes like you >describe or worse, only very windy. The Inuit call this year the one >that summer never came. During one 400 mile stretch Jon Waterman found >the conditions too rough and windy to paddle most of the time so he >sailed instead. I quote from his trip report that I received this fall. > >"When I returned in July, I was horrified to find winter skies and >stubborn seaice blocking the main Elu Inlet portage. The wind blew >constantly out of the north—across vast plains of sea ice—effectively >refrigerating the arctic. > I was lucky, no doubt, but for this demanding passage, I also >had two years of tricks up my sleeve. I knew what I could get away >with. Nor did it hurt that my equipment was state-of-the art. Vital to >my success: a dry suit—which I wore all but one day this summer (and I >regretted that wet day immensely). Also, a hikeout sailing seat atop >the klepper kayak, which allowed me to see over the waves and reduce the >heeling pressure on the sponsons by dynamic leaning. >Getting to Gjoa Haven was simply a battle. For two weeks I wondered if I >would be forced to turn back because of the big seas. I was pushed >(literally—with the sails—and figuratively) to my limits just staying >warm and making miles.For 400 miles from Elu Inlet to the village of >Gjoa Haven, I only paddled perhaps 70 miles because of this wind—I could >always count on sailing my kayak." >And later: "I rode a westerly gale into Taloyoak and since the waves >were covering and crashing over my kayak, several villagers watching me >surf into the harbor thought that I was riding a windsurfer!" > > Any in the US that are interested in trips like this can see some of >it on a couple of television specials. The first one is scheduled for: >January 16, 5 pm to 6 pm, on NBC. A two hour special will air in the >spring on Outdoor Life Network. There will be a book published due out >January 2001 for those who enjoy reading about arctic kayak travel, by >paddle or sail. > >Good sailing >Mark > > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
PJ, I agree that trips like Jon's are facinating. I have enjoyed reading his books on mountain climbing for similar reasons. Jon is quite an adventurer and also a good writer and has produced some great videos so this trip should be documented well. Interesting to me also is that Jon does not have as much experience kayaking or sailing as a lot of us but is very inteligent in the sense of being adaptable. I have seldom met anyone who could grasp new concepts as quickly as Jon. His rigs were slightly different for both seasons. He approached us quite late with little time before his trip. The Klepper is pretty small and he had to carry a lot of gear for self supported arctic travel as well as cameras, still and video, and satilite gear to contact a the source for an educational web page. Because of payload limitations, I was doubtful at first that we could provide a full windward sail rig with outriggers that would fit his parameters. I quickly built an experimental lug sail but it was too heavy and bulky so I suggested a 24 square foot BATWING. Jon rejected it because of weight and bulk and I proposed an 18 square foot BATWING and the addition of a 14 sq ft light nylon headsail to use off the wind in light wind conditions which he accepted. He also took our BOSS outrigger system. After the first season Jon concluded that he wanted more sail area and was willing to carry the extra gear for the wider wind range he would obtain and he took a 24 BATWING and the same jib. For a small part of the trip his fiance joined him with a Nautiraid Grand Raid rigged with a 32 BATWING and the BOSS outriggers. We value Jons feedback in regard to his arctic sailing experience with these three rigs. The book will be written by Jon. My information from Jon on this is: > > I believe my Knopf book (due January 2001) will be titled: > > Miles From Nowhere; > > A 2,000-mile Journey Through the Northwest Passage, Into the Lost Culture of the Arctic Part of his travels on this trip were on foot, skis, dog sled etc. but he also had a great interest in the inuit culture. The book and television shows should reflect that interest. I really don't know much more about the TV special but will try to find out. One of his sponsors was the Outdoor Life Network. It was originally planned that they would do a 1 hour special. During the trip they decided to up it to a 2 hour special. Here is all the other information that I have as of now. > On January 16, 5 pm, NBC will be airing my hour-long film, one > of a series > of six adventure films being produced by The North Face in conjuction > with > NBC, and rented from Outdoor Life--who will probably be airing a two > hour > documentary of my trip later in the spring. > As of Oct 1, my Adventureonline.com site, which is presently > inactive, > will be updated with bigger photos and my summer journals. And I'm also > writing a story for Adventure magazine, to appear sometime in the late > winter/spring. I'll keep you posted about it all. I have really enjoyed all of Jon's books and videos and am especially excited about reading and seeing more about this trip. If you have any more questions that I have not been able to answer, please ask and I will try to find out. Mark PJ Rattenbury wrote: > > Mark: > > Jon Waterman's Arctic adventure sounds truly amazing. Folks like him who > venture into the cold, and there are plenty of PaddleWisers who do, have > my admiration. > Do you have any detail on the sail rig he used on his Klepper? I presume > he used one of your Batwings? Has he written any articles one how he > prepared for his adventure; in particular the gear he chose? Do you have > any more detail on the book? Is Jon writing it himself? > And do you have any more detail on the television special? Is it just on > his journey? Regards, PJ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ahem. Good bite, Mark! Mark wrote: (...)"I expect your words are intended just to provoke those of us who are not limited by our skills to one mode of propulsion, but I'll bite anyway.;-) (snip) Well, it is not the skills. You sail, I suppose, and I do not. Let me cite myself: "At least that is my zen thing: old mortal clay in total co-operation with my weary soul...". Meaning: this is the thing in kayaking for me - not sailing. One can get a *total feeling of completeness* from sailing, but that is not the same thing. Of course, my judgment upon sails and pedal powered kayaks can be reflected against that philosophy :-p About local conditions: at this time of year you can count the small boats at sea with the fingers of your right hand. Kayaks and sailing boats: almost *zero*. The reason is not the extreme winds, which are fortunately rare, but the coldness in water and air. To be earnest, you do not suppose that Jon Waterman's Arctic adventures are everyoneīs cup of tea? Taking that as an example about sailing was a little bit misleading. Very few people go out there now, in general! The matter of a fact (about SOTīs) is that it is rather favourable to stay warm and dry around here, especially now. I think SOTīs suit better to warmer surroundings. Closed, more traditional, kayak keeps your lower body warm (the effects of wind and cold water, even if you wear a dry-suit). If I am correct the water is allowed to enter the kayak freely in SOTīs - and there is no way I am going to sit in sea water of 5 to 7 degrees Centigrades (the water is still this week about 40 F)! Even with a dry-suit, and full fleece undergear it would be awful - the water starts to freeze on your kayak deck, on your dry-suit. And on your precious a$$, however hard you pedale! Hmm. There might be market for sails here. Nobody is using them in kayaks.. quite a lot of limited people... Cheers, Ari PS: I think that Matt was meaning ("but lets get back to paddling on paddlewise") that there are so many never-ending topics which do come back after a while. Sails or no sails, feathered or unfeathered paddles for an example, or whatever. I am sure that sails, if used in kayaks, can be an interesting topic (though peripheral) among other things. No problem there. But paddling comes first. And list mom has surely something to say upon us kids ranting here :-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
asaarto wrote: > > Ahem. Good bite, Mark! > > Mark wrote: (...)"I expect your words are intended just to provoke > those of us who are not limited by our skills to one mode of > propulsion, but I'll bite anyway.;-) (snip) > > Well, it is not the skills. I hope you read the teasing in this. I felt you were suffering already from cabin fever and were wanting to provoke and I thought this was the appropriate response, being provoked, to reward your effort. Even as chauvinistic as I am I realize we have different preferences. > You sail, I suppose, and I do not. > Let me cite myself: "At least that is my zen thing: old mortal clay > in total co-operation with my weary soul...". Meaning: this is the > thing in kayaking for me - not sailing. One can get a *total feeling of > completeness* from sailing, but that is not the same thing. Of > course, my judgment upon sails and pedal powered kayaks can be > reflected against that philosophy :-p Well stated Ari, Sailing is much the same for me as the paddling is for you though I do not understand why the satisfaction from each can not be the same. Paddling is mostly something that I do when the wind dies. I may get more of the satisfaction you get from paddling from my bicycle. Part of this is that I think I am a passagemaker at heart. I like to think my kayak is made to cross large distances in open water. The extra speed and range from a sail allow me to think of ocean rather than coast. My learning is in preparation for long jumps as opposed to coastal hops. > > About local conditions: at this time of year you can count the small > boats at sea with the fingers of your right hand. Kayaks and sailing > boats: almost *zero*. The reason is not the extreme winds, which > are fortunately rare, but the coldness in water and air. To be > earnest, you do not suppose that Jon Waterman's Arctic > adventures are everyoneīs cup of tea? Taking that as an example > about sailing was a little bit misleading. Very few people go out > there now, in general! I will not be able to agree with you on all of this. I may have misunderstood your original promptings but I thought you were implying that there was something about a sailing kayak or SOT that would prohibit them from use in conditions that you would use a sit in kayak with paddle alone. Granted, I too would normally use a SOT in warmer climates. As far as sailing goes, I will certainly sail a kayak in conditions I would not intentionally go paddling in. (This excludes surf paddling.) As fas as Jon's arctic trip I guess it is true that most won't do that kind of kayaking. I do not think it misleading, just responsive to your question: "I am out tomorrow. It is all over gray here and the temps dropped last weekend few degrees below zero Centigrades. It means below 40 F. Few inches of snow, it is wonderful to paddle when it is falling.Do you suppose, any of you, that someone could use a kayak with sails here? Or a pedal powered SOT?" The answer was yes someone could and I gave a specific example. Again I thought your question implied kayak sailing was excluded from cold conditions and it is not. I sail all winter when I have time and Jon is far from the only kayak sailor I know who travels in the arctic. I think I recall one season where there were 5 sail rigged kayaks in the arctic, these were just to ones that that I knew about. That year, all of them were folding kayaks but I would not infer that rigid kayaks can not sail or paddle in the arctic. I know that given the choice, I normally sail in warm conditions but sailing in cold can be pretty nice too. > > The matter of a fact (about SOTīs) is that it is rather favourable to > stay warm and dry around here, especially now. I think SOTīs suit > better to warmer surroundings. Closed, more traditional, kayak > keeps your lower body warm (the effects of wind and cold water, > even if you wear a dry-suit). If I am correct the water is allowed to > enter the kayak freely in SOTīs - and there is no way I am going to > sit in sea water of 5 to 7 degrees Centigrades (the water is still this > week about 40 F)! Even with a dry-suit, and full fleece undergear it > would be awful - the water starts to freeze on your kayak deck, on > your dry-suit. And on your precious a$$, however hard you pedale! Or paddle. > > Hmm. There might be market for sails here. Nobody is using them > in kayaks.. quite a lot of limited people... Don't despair Ari, things may get better.;-) > > Cheers, Ari > > PS: I think that Matt was meaning ("but lets get back to paddling on > paddlewise") that there are so many never-ending topics which do > come back after a while. Sails or no sails, feathered or unfeathered > paddles for an example, or whatever. I am sure that sails, if used in > kayaks, can be an interesting topic (though peripheral) among > other things. No problem there. But paddling comes first. And list > mom has surely something to say upon us kids ranting here :-) I think she did respond. Nice hearing from you again Ari. Good paddling, Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: Mark Balogh > > Sailing is much the same for me as the paddling is for you though I do > not understand why the satisfaction from each can not be the same. > Paddling is mostly something that I do when the wind dies. I may get > more of the satisfaction you get from paddling from my bicycle. Part of > this is that I think I am a passagemaker at heart. I like to think my > kayak is made to cross large distances in open water. The extra speed > and range from a sail allow me to think of ocean rather than coast. My > learning is in preparation for long jumps as opposed to coastal hops. > i think that the downriver 24 hr distance record is upwards of 300 miles. what do you consider to be a long jump with a sail in a kayak? anyone recall what kinds of records folks hold for these types of activities? bye bye bliven *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Larry, I guess one trip I would like to try when I can arrange the time as sort of a shakedown would be North Carolina to Bermuda. Around 600 miles. If I like that then longer trips. I wouldn't do it as any type of record attempt, just personal satisfaction. Shorter trips like Florida to the Bahamas have been done many times by sailing kayak and I would think that would be nice. In good conditions in a sailing kayak loaded for touring I would think 8 knots average reaching would be doing well. Bear in mind that when I say sailing kayak, I mean one that can convert from sailing to paddling while on the water and stow the sail gear aboard. I am not talking about kayak based performance sailboat. I'm sure someone must like it but 300 miles down a river in 24 hrs sounds a lot like work to me. Larry Bliven wrote: > i think that the downriver 24 hr distance record is upwards of 300 miles. > what do you consider to be a long jump with a sail in a kayak? > > anyone recall what kinds of records folks hold for these types of > activities? > > bye bye bliven *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark wrote; > I guess one trip I would like to try when I can arrange the time as sort > of a shakedown would be North Carolina to Bermuda. Around 600 miles. > If I like that then longer trips. I wouldn't do it as any type of > record attempt, just personal satisfaction. Shorter trips like Florida > to the Bahamas have been done many times by sailing kayak and I would > think that would be nice. In good conditions in a sailing kayak loaded > for touring I would think 8 knots average reaching would be doing well. > Bear in mind that when I say sailing kayak, I mean one that can convert > from sailing to paddling while on the water and stow the sail gear > aboard. I am not talking about kayak based performance sailboat. An interesting aspect of Mark's project has to do with when a kayak with auxiliary sail power becomes a sailboat with auxiliary paddle power. This might seem like splitting hairs but it has a lot of importance from a design standpoint. Since I have designed sailboats and now design canoes and kayaks I face this occasionally when customers ask for canoes or kayaks with sailing rigs. Recently I did some free consultation for Hugh Horton who really enjoys his sailing canoe designed by David Yost and hopes to perfect it. Meade Gougeon of the West System fame has built on and many other people are showing renewed interest in sailing canoes. I believe Mark knows Hugh and may have some familiarity with the boat. Anyway, the problem a designer faces has to do with the fact that sails can generate more power than a person paddling so one has to decide whether to use a higher prismatic coefficient (Cp) for the sailing or a lower Cp for the paddling. Generally one also likes to use more fullness higher up forward to reduce trim forward when running under sail while preferring a finer entry on a kayak. Next one has to face whether the boat must sail to windward. Do you use a keel, lee boards, bilge boards, centerboard or what? All affect the hull design and impact on paddling. So, the question surfaces. Does the customer want a sailboat with and emphasis on sailing or a kayak with the emphasis on paddling. My experience with this leads me to believe that those who do much sailing really want sailboats. When I asked Hugh Horton this question he had no ready answer but every picture of his boats showed them sailing and that, to me, suggested the answer. The pedants among us might suggest that kayaks that get sailed more than paddled belong in the sailing mailing lists. :-) No doubt Mark has thought his boat through carefully but, at the risk of preaching to the converted, I think it worthwhile to mention that any boat for a long open water voyage should have self bailing and self righting ability. Most importantly the paddler/sailor should not depend upon form stability. A careful reading of Lindemann's "Alone at Sea" and Marchaj's "Seaworthiness: the Forgotten Factor" will explain why. Whether one considers a self righting and self bailing boat a sea kayak or not should cause some debate to relieve our early winter ennui. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
As I was taking out a few weeks ago another "paddler" was dropping one of these in the water. It's made by Hobie. He claimed it was fast but the hull looked like a pig. cya -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of asaarto Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 12:52 PM To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] pedal power kayak Ahem... Dave wrote: > I was at REI yesterday, and saw an interesting idea for > a kayak. It was powered by a bicycle crank turning a propeller. > Seemed like it had higher freeboard, hatches front and rear, > and an open cockpit, sculpted to pedal recumbent style. > very large gear on the pedal crank, very small gear on the propeller shaft. ... might be interesting to balance oneself in that one... hips, feet and thigh moving all the time. How are you supposed to support yourself? Seems like a flat-water thing. (snip..) > At $2800 US dollars and all fiber glass, not for me, but if > it could be adapted to stitch and glue, it might be interesting. > The sales clerk claimed that it was a very fast boat, which sort of > makes sense, since you are using leg muscles rather than > arm muscles to power it. Uhh... quite an expensive one... Paddling movements are supposed to come from the the whole body, right? Not just arms. At least that is my zen thing: old mortal clay in total co-operation with my weary soul, man! Anyhow, Dave, it sounds fairly interesting. How wide was this... the THING ;-) ????? Cheers, Ari "Home of the Traditional & Famous Scandinavian Skinny-dipping [TM]" Finland - Europe *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I would think that geared paddle wheels would be a more efficient means of propulsion. flotation devices at the end of the hubs for tipping would allow for a very narrow hull. Anybody have any thoughts on this? gabriel, who thinks sails and SOT's are different, but just dandy. > > > At $2800 US dollars and all fiber glass, not for me, but if > > it could be adapted to stitch and glue, it might be interesting. > > The sales clerk claimed that it was a very fast boat, which sort of > > makes sense, since you are using leg muscles rather than > > arm muscles to power it. > Uhh... quite an expensive one... > > Paddling movements are supposed to come from the the whole body, right? > Not just arms. At least that is my zen thing: old mortal clay in total > co-operation with my weary soul, man! > > Anyhow, Dave, it sounds fairly interesting. How wide was this... the > THING ;-) ????? -- : : Gabriel L Romeu : http://studiofurniture.com furniture from the workshop : http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR life as a tourist, daily journal : http://users.aol.com/romeugp paintings, photographs, etchings, objects *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I didn't peddle it, but I saw them being demo'd at the SF Bay Paddlefest. The didn't look fast to me and one has nothing to brace with. Wouldn't want to be on one in any sort of chop. Bob > I was at REI yesterday, and saw an interesting idea for > a kayak. It was powered by a bicycle crank turning a propeller. > Seemed like it had higher freeboard, hatches front and rear, > and an open cockpit, sculpted to pedal recumbent style. > very large gear on the pedal crank, very small gear on the propeller shaft. > > Steering was by a essentially vertical handle sticking up > on both sides of the cockpit, tilt either handle side to side > moved a rudder. > > The stern and transom was flat across the rear, and the bottom of the > hull extended out past the transom to provide a shelf > over the rudder and propeller. > > At $2800 US dollars and all fiber glass, not for me, but if > it could be adapted to stitch and glue, it might be interesting. > The sales clerk claimed that it was a very fast boat, which sort of > makes sense, since you are using leg muscles rather than > arm muscles to power it. > > dave *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 11/24/99 9:37:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, romeug_at_erols.com writes: << I would think that geared paddle wheels would be a more efficient means of propulsion. flotation devices at the end of the hubs for tipping would allow for a very narrow hull. Anybody have any thoughts on this? >> Yeah: Rotary motion is more efficient than reciprocating motion. The trade off is on loss of mechanical efficiency in a gear/drive shaft system (although this may be negligible). The best may be a simple propeller as on a sailboat, the kind that folds up when not spinning. Peddle powered kayaks are an interesting concept that appears to be only useful on a sit-on. I certainly would not have room for pedals in my touring boat, unless I chopped a clearance hole for my knees in the deck. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Gabriel, The Human Powered Vehicle people have been building watercraft for years trying to figure that out. The record holder of HPVs last I heard used an air propeller and was foil borne. (19+ MPH?) Certainly not practical for touring. There are comercially available pedal water propeller units that can be hung off the side of a kayak but you still need the knee clearance such as in a SOT. Mark Gabriel L Romeu wrote: > > I would think that geared paddle wheels would be a more efficient means > of propulsion. flotation devices at the end of the hubs for tipping > would allow for a very narrow hull. > > Anybody have any thoughts on this? > > gabriel, who thinks sails and SOT's are different, but just dandy. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I guess it would be silly to re-invent the (water)wheel. By the way Mark, I have admired your sail design for some time now. regards, gabriel Mark Balogh wrote: > > Gabriel, > > The Human Powered Vehicle people have been building watercraft for years > trying to figure that out. The record holder of HPVs last I heard used > an air propeller and was foil borne. (19+ MPH?) Certainly not practical > for touring. There are comercially available pedal water propeller > units that can be hung off the side of a kayak but you still need the > knee clearance such as in a SOT. > > Mark > > Gabriel L Romeu wrote: > > > > I would think that geared paddle wheels would be a more efficient means > > of propulsion. flotation devices at the end of the hubs for tipping > > would allow for a very narrow hull. > > > > Anybody have any thoughts on this? > > > > gabriel, who thinks sails and SOT's are different, but just dandy. > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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