I am considering buying a drysuit top and neoprene/fleece pants as a kayaking uniform for winter (or year round) in the Puget Sound. My objections to full drysuit are price and its too hard to get on and off. Has anyone tried this combination and are you happy with it? Also, does a drysuit bib work with a nylon tunneled spray skirt? Any preferences in brands? Thanks for any info. Paul *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/10/00 11:06:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, paragrant_at_webtv.net writes: > I am considering buying a drysuit top and neoprene/fleece pants as a > kayaking uniform for winter (or year round) in the Puget Sound. My > objections to full drysuit are price and its too hard to get on and off. > Has anyone tried this combination and are you happy with it? Also, does > a drysuit bib work with a nylon tunneled spray skirt? Any preferences > in brands? paul: i attended a cold-water workshop this weekend sponsored by a local paddling club--well organized, highly informative. after hearing/learning about the number of deaths as a result of hypothermia, i wouldn't consider paddling in anything less than a drysuit with proper insulation, esp in puget sound in winter. i agree, the expense and possible discomfort of a drysuit are considerable but when you consider the alternative . . . getting a drysuit on and off was also a concern of mine, but, it was my observation that with a little practice, they're not that hard to get on and off. i am convinced a $400-$600+ drysuit is worth the investment and think you will find a lot of folks out there will agree. kokatat seems to be the drysuit of choice. my guess is you could go through a lot of gear/combinations of gear ( and spend a lot of $$) only to find that nothing will be as effective as a drysuit-- a. mariani <~~~~a complete novice, but a fast learner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'm in agreement with those who say that, for really cold water (regardless of air temp) the only safe way to go is with a full Goretex drysuit. A drytop won't do the job. I do have a Goretex drytop, and I wear it when the water temp gets up to 50 or so - but even then, I'm probably taking a significant risk. A drytop won't usually keep you truly dry if you're practicing rolls. If you ever come out of your boat, a drytop will first allow your lower body to get wet and cold, and soon thereafter you'll notice all that cold water wicking up onto your lower torso. Don't try to compromise with a coated drysuit. It won't breathe, and you'll be so uncomfortable that you won't use it. As for discomfort, there is some with a full Goretex suit, but it's well worth it. When I paddle even moderately hard during late fall and winter, the polys lining my drysuit get wet - even though the drysuit is Goretex. That's okay. I have other clothes I can change into. As for difficulty getting into the suit, that's minimal. For me, it's getting out of the suit which is a bit of a nuisance. That takes about 30-45 seconds and a little careful tugging. It certainly isn't a big deal. And as for price - well, do you have life insurance? A Goretex drysuit is by far the cheapest life insurance policy you'll ever see. Get a relief zipper in the suit if you possibly can, unless you're blessed with a 6 hour bladder capacity. Bill Hansen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> My objections to full drysuit are price and its too hard to get on and off. >> If you get one with latex or neoprene booties instead of ankle gaskets, you will find that it is quite easy to pull the legs on, and the zipper makes it possible to slip your arms through the wrist gaskets *before* you pull the neck gasket over your head. With a drytop, I imagine you have to do that all at once. Also, the zipper gives you extra ventilation when you are ashore. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>From: paragrant_at_webtv.net (Paul Grant) >I am considering buying a drysuit top and neoprene/fleece pants as a >kayaking uniform for winter (or year round) in the Puget Sound. My >objections to full drysuit are price and its too hard to get on and off. >Has anyone tried this combination and are you happy with it? Also, does >a drysuit bib work with a nylon tunneled spray skirt? Any preferences >in brands? Thanks for any info. Paul Hi Paul, Although the full drysuit would obviously be the choice were money no object (sigh…), wetsuits do have their place, and some advantages; though wetsuits offer less insulation than an unpunctured drysuit, wetsuits are very tough and continue to offer a lot of protection even if holed in places; a flooded drysuit can turn from an asset into a liability, and the latex seals on a drysuit need a fair degree of maintenance. I'm referring to farmer john wetsuits here - diving wetsuits are not appropriate. So I'd suggest your first purchase should be a farmer john wetsuit. Upgrade to a drysuit when you can afford it. No matter which combination you set out with, I'd also consider some insulation for the head essential - a lot of heat is lost through the head if you swim. Plus a hood may reduce the chances of swimming in the first place, by reducing the brain-freezing "ice-cream headache" caused by sudden capsize in cold water. This headache causes a lot of people who can Eskimo roll reliably in a pool to "abandon ship" in the real world. A full neoprene hood provides the most protection, but some people find it a bit claustrophobic, especially under a helmet, and that it reduces their hearing (you can cut earholes to offset this, though at some reduction of insulation value). Personally I'm a big fan of those thinnner "skull caps". While not as warm as a full hood, they are very comfortable, and therefore possibly more likely to be on your head when you need them. They also increase your warmth by a surprising amount, and are a easier "additional layer" to put on in the sort of exciting situations where you propably shouldn't try to peel off your drytop and add another fleece jacket:-) Skull caps do make you look somewhat like a deranged Medieval peasant from a Monty Python movie, but they work. I would say drytops can complement farmer john wetsuits nicely. I've worn a farmer john wetsuit/drytop combo when surf kayaking and found the top stayed surprisingly dry and buoyant, even when I swam in big waves. Bare in mind this was with a whitewater sprayskirt that fits up between the outer jacket and the inner "gasket", and forms a good double-layer seal. If you were using it with a touring sprayskirt with suspenders, I'd suggest wearing the jacket entirely inside the sprayskirt tunnel, and cinching the neoprene jacket "cummberbund" waist as tight as comfortable for the best seal. The waist seal is a "weak link" in the system (as an aside, from an "engineering" point of view, the human body is the weak link in the system - it's quite hard to form an effective seal around body protrusions. However, I imagine a simple over-sized drybag that sealed the entire paddler in would meet with some consumer resistance.) Anyway, in the case of the drytop, so long as the latex seals at wrists and neck hold, air pressure will prevent or minimise water from flooding up at the waist, in the same way that you can push an inverted glass down into water without the water flooding to fill the glass. In the worst-case scenario, if the drytop did flood, the water will only rise to "sea level", which if you're wearing a PFD and a wetsuit, will be safely below your mouth. As you wade ashore, or reboard your boat, the water will drain off. Plus the wetsuit continues to provide a good degree of insulation. In any situation where I felt a wetsuit would not provide enough immersion protection, I'd wear a one-piece drysuit rather than a two-piece - one less thing (the waist seal) to fail. I'd also second the motion about a relief zip. It's one of nature's cruel practical jokes that the need to pee is most urgent in those sort of cold and bouncy situations where it's impractical to take off the suit. A folding Velcro overflap over a seamed slit is the way to go; it does somewhat increase the "bellows effect" of cold water ingress if you swim, but again this is more than offset by the increased likelyhood you'll be wearing your suit when you need it if you can pee when needed. (I made this modification to an off-the-shelf wetsuit sold by my employer - an outdoor retailer - and suggested to our marine buyer we should market suits with this feature as the "Free Willy" model, however we were concened Disney would sue our assests off:-) I'd be very leary of the fleece pants/drytop combo. The fleece would provide little if any protection if you swam, and would tend to "wick" cold water up into your drytop. Similiarly, I'd mistrust a drysuit "bib" for fear it might fill up and hamper my swimming or reentry efforts, but note this fear is based on surmise rather than experience. I hope this is all of some help. Happy and safe paddling. Philip Torrens N49°16' W123°06' *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Options add a higher initial cost to a dry suit, but probably substantially extend its lifetime. Kokatat's dry suit has an option for "cordura" kneepads and seat pads. My WW instructor, Kevin Stevens of Seattle, wore a goretex Kokatat drysuit that was entirely covered with another layer of material, presumably cordura, like the knee pads, which made the whole suit very durable and abrasion resistant. I would think that the covered dry suits would be as tough as the neoprene wetsuits and many more times functional. You can wear a drysuit in warm weather, and use the zipper to regulate heat when the water conditions permit, but if you are not planning to stay immersed, a wetsuit will cook you! In summary Paul: Get the one piece dry suit if you possibly can! Consider the add-ons as budget will allow. You are paddling serious water up there. Robert > From: Philip Torrens wrote on 11 Jan 2000 08:12:04 -0800 (PST) > To: paragrant_at_webtv.net, paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > > Although the full drysuit would obviously be the choice were money no object > (sigh…), wetsuits do have their place, and some advantages; though wetsuits > offer less insulation than an unpunctured drysuit, wetsuits are very tough > and continue to offer a lot of protection even if holed in places; a flooded > drysuit can turn from an asset into a liability, *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
What an amusing coincidence! I have not read paddlewise for several weeks, and this morning I log in for the express purpose of selling my drysuit which is mentioned below by one of my former students, Robert. (by the way, it's Whilden, not Stevens. How could you forget? :) This message was at the top of my list too. Chance and coincidence works in strange ways sometimes. So without further ado... $450 XL Kokatat goretex meridian drysuit, w/ relief zipper, latex socks, and reflective tape on the arms. It's in excellent shape, since it is constructed of rare heavyweight goretex (not cordura). It is also a very rare bright yellow color, which is extremely visible in the sea, on the river, and on dark rainy days. This suit is so bright, you'll swear it is battery powered, which, despite ocassional razzing from friends, is an outstanding safety feature. This is Kokatat's top of the line suit with all the options... a new one would cost $800+ retail. The drawbacks are, as with any used drysuit/drytop, the gaskets will need replacing sooner than a new suit. Neck gaskets always go first, and mine is starting to show early signs of wear. Still I would estimate at least one year of heavy use with proper care. The latex socks will probably last two more years. The wrist gaskets are probably good for 2+ years. The rest of the suit should last 4-5 years easily, if not more. The heavyweight goretex is fantastically durable. Send me email if you're interested. (kwhilden_at_seanet.com) Cheers, kevin ps. Robert, how's it going? Send me an email. ------------------------------- | Kevin Whilden | | kwhilden_at_seanet.com | | Kayak Academy Instructor | | http://www.halcyon.com/kayak | ------------------------------- On Tue, 11 Jan 2000, Robert C. Cline wrote: > Options add a higher initial cost to a dry suit, but probably substantially > extend its lifetime. Kokatat's dry suit has an option for "cordura" kneepads > and seat pads. My WW instructor, Kevin Stevens of Seattle, wore a goretex > Kokatat drysuit that was entirely covered with another layer of material, > presumably cordura, like the knee pads, which made the whole suit very > durable and abrasion resistant. > > I would think that the covered dry suits would be as tough as the neoprene > wetsuits and many more times functional. You can wear a drysuit in warm > weather, and use the zipper to regulate heat when the water conditions > permit, but if you are not planning to stay immersed, a wetsuit will cook > you! > > In summary Paul: Get the one piece dry suit if you possibly can! Consider > the add-ons as budget will allow. You are paddling serious water up there. > > Robert > > > From: Philip Torrens wrote on 11 Jan 2000 08:12:04 -0800 (PST) > > To: paragrant_at_webtv.net, paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > > > > > Although the full drysuit would obviously be the choice were money no object > > (sigh…), wetsuits do have their place, and some advantages; though wetsuits > > offer less insulation than an unpunctured drysuit, wetsuits are very tough > > and continue to offer a lot of protection even if holed in places; a flooded > > drysuit can turn from an asset into a liability, > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> Skull caps do make you look somewhat like a deranged Medieval peasant from a Monty Python movie, but they work. >> See the center photo at http://www.isk.canoe-kayak.org/photos.html. :-) Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I too have been entertaining the thought of matching up a drytop with a farmer john or neoprene pants. But I would only use the combo to extend the paddling season, and even then if the water is close to the 50's, I'd keep it limited to flatwater and relatively close to shore. That probably sounds pretty dull to some of you, but hey I'm no Doug Loyd (yet - give me some time I'm still young). Besides, it SHOULD be snowing by then and be time to switch over to the snow sports. Paul really didn't say what kind of paddling he was intending on doing. If it's tame maybe he can get away with lessor protection that combo provides? Of course I'm not familiar with Puget Sound - it could have horrendous conditions year-round which require the full on gear. If he wants to paddle regularly in water colder than 50 degrees then yeah make the investment in a dry suit. -----Original Message----- From: paragrant_at_webtv.net [mailto:paragrant_at_webtv.net] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 10:41 PM To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: [Paddlewise] drysuits I am considering buying a drysuit top and neoprene/fleece pants as a kayaking uniform for winter (or year round) in the Puget Sound. My objections to full drysuit are price and its too hard to get on and off. Has anyone tried this combination and are you happy with it? Also, does a drysuit bib work with a nylon tunneled spray skirt? Any preferences in brands? Thanks for any info. Paul *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>From: "Robert C. Cline" <rccline_at_swbell.net> >Options add a higher initial cost to a dry suit, but probably substantially >extend its lifetime. Kokatat's dry suit has an option for "cordura" >kneepads >and seat pads. My WW instructor, Kevin Stevens of Seattle, wore a >goretex >Kokatat drysuit that was entirely covered with another layer of material, >presumably cordura, like the knee pads, which made the whole suit very >durable and abrasion resistant. > >I would think that the covered dry suits would be as tough as the neoprene >wetsuits and many more times functional. You can wear a drysuit in warm >weather, and use the zipper to regulate heat when the water conditions >permit, but if you are not planning to stay immersed, a wetsuit will cook >you! > >In summary Paul: Get the one piece dry suit if you possibly can! Consider >the add-ons as budget will allow. You are paddling serious water up there. > >Robert Hi Robert, No question that an intact drysuit with appropriate fleece beneath provides substantially more immersion protection than a 3mm farmer john wetsuit. I had such a "dream suit" made for an arctic trip a few years back: a reinforced Kokotat Gore-Tex drysuit with relief zip. I had the factory latex seals replaced at a dive shop with the sort of neoprene seals used on diving drysuits (far more comfortable and durable). At the same time, I had them install integral booties as used in diving drysuits so I could wade ashore without soaking my feet - on longer trips "trench foot" is a serious issue. The suit served me well on the trip - we could work on land and just strip off the drysuit and slap Gore-Tex jacket and pants on without removing the fleece. The suit also served me well for a couple of years once I got back to BC. However, as I swam ashore once on a surf kayaking trip, the crotch seal blew open from stem to stern, leaving me exposed in a least two senses. If this had happened far at sea or during a multi-day trip, it would have been disastrous. (I did not consider this a warranty issue with Kokotat, as I had basically given the suit a typical lifetime's worth of use in a few years.) I also noticed that in BC in the summer, I had a tendency to paddle with the suit unzipped and peeled around my waist to avoid heat discomfort, which meant that had I capsized it would have been worse than useless. Since then I've paddled with the 3mm farmer john previously described. Even worn peeled to the waist, it would provide some protection if I swam. It's certainly true that a drysuit is preferable for winter wear, and as soon as I can afford to replace my "dream suit" I probably will. Philip Torrens N49°16' W123°06' *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Phillip: Thanks for your comments. I'll have to give the farmer john a try in the summer. I bought one, but never used it. I became convinced that a dry suit was really the way to go, and I bought a drysuit instead. So now I have two suits. I can use the wetsuit for diving, and I have relied on the dry suit for paddling in cold waters. If peeled to the waist, and you swam, I presume you could quickly pull it up and it would start to work, whereas, as you state, the dry suit would be totally useless. How long can you stay immersed in 50 to 54 degree water with the farmer john before "the shakes" begin? Robert Philip Torrens wrote: > Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 10:40:44 -0800 (PST) > > Since then > I've paddled with the 3mm farmer john previously described. Even worn peeled > to the waist, it would provide some protection if I swam. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Robert C. Cline" wrote: > How long can you stay immersed in 50 to 54 degree water with the farmer john > before "the shakes" begin? Re: the Farmer John/Dry top combo's ability to sustain a person in cold water: I've been in 50 - 54 degree F water for at least an hour with that arrangement and not had any trouble with function in my hands. However, *below 50 F* my hands lose useful function within about 30-40 minutes (depending on my activity level, etc.). Typical wintertime water temps on the lower Columbia River are about 45 degrees F, so this arrangement "works" to give *me* enough time to do a self rescue or swim to shore *on the River,* but maybe not on Puget Sound. Read on. Caveats: 1. The original poster (was that you, Robert?) plans on paddling on Puget Sound, which might have winter water temps lower than 45 F. Yea/nay? 2. Rob MacDonald (new guy; great contribution, Rob!) pointed out that ability to function in cold water is strongly influenced by aclimatisation. I'm a "hot blooded" guy (like Ralph), achieved partly by aclimatisation, so others may not be able to function under the conditions I can. 3. Careful studies of cold-water aclimatisation (on fish-filleters who worked the slime line, hands in < 40 F water continuously !!! ) show that it takes about six **weeks** of regular immersion to develop full tolerance for the cold water. Newbies could tolerate 20 minutes before their hands went to lobster claws. After a week it was maybe two hours at a time, four hours at three weeks, and then a gradual increase on up to 8 hours. Yeah, you lose the tolerance, at about the same rate. (Can't remember where I read of this study.) Here is a case where YMMV applies *in spades!* Bottom line of the bottom lines: test your gear, *on you* in the conditions you expect. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>From: "Robert C. Cline" <rccline_at_swbell.net> >Options add a higher initial cost to a dry suit, but probably substantially >extend its lifetime. Kokatat's dry suit has an option for "cordura" >kneepads >and seat pads. My WW instructor, Kevin Stevens of Seattle, wore a >goretex >Kokatat drysuit that was entirely covered with another layer of material, >presumably cordura, like the knee pads, which made the whole suit very >durable and abrasion resistant. > >I would think that the covered dry suits would be as tough as the neoprene >wetsuits and many more times functional. You can wear a drysuit in warm >weather, and use the zipper to regulate heat when the water conditions >permit, but if you are not planning to stay immersed, a wetsuit will cook >you! > >In summary Paul: Get the one piece dry suit if you possibly can! Consider >the add-ons as budget will allow. You are paddling serious water up there. > >Robert Hi Robert, No question that an intact drysuit with appropriate fleece beneath provides substantially more immersion protection than a 3mm farmer john wetsuit. I had such a "dream suit" made for an arctic trip a few years back: a reinforced Kokotat Gore-Tex drysuit with relief zip. I had the factory latex seals replaced at a dive shop with the sort of neoprene seals used on diving drysuits (far more comfortable and durable). At the same time, I had them install integral booties as used in diving drysuits so I could wade ashore without soaking my feet - on longer trips "trench foot" is a serious issue. The suit served me well on the trip - we could work on land and just strip off the drysuit and slap Gore-Tex jacket and pants on without removing the fleece. The suit also served me well for a couple of years once I got back to BC. However, as I swam ashore once on a surf kayaking trip, the crotch seal blew open from stem to stern, leaving me exposed in a least two senses. If this had happened far at sea or during a multi-day trip, it would have been disastrous. (I did not consider this a warranty issue with Kokotat, as I had basically given the suit a typical lifetime's worth of use in a few years.) I also noticed that in BC in the summer, I had a tendency to paddle with the suit unzipped and peeled around my waist to avoid heat discomfort, which meant that had I capsized it would have been worse than useless. Since then I've paddled with the 3mm farmer john previously described. Even worn peeled to the waist, it would provide some protection if I swam. It's certainly true that a drysuit is preferable for winter wear, and as soon as I can afford to replace my "dream suit" I probably will. Philip Torrens N49°16' W123°06' *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I find that the drysuit is really uncomfortable only the first time or so that I wear it each season. I have the lightweight goretex and, while I won't say it isn't warm in there, it's not terribly uncomfortable, especially since, while there are those warm days, most of the time that you're wearing a drysuit it's actually pretty chilly out. For guys the relief zipper is a must - I have the drop seat, which is much more useful for ladies. Also, I definitely recommend the attached booties. For one thing, they increase the itnegrity of the drysuit, and for another, they're easier to pull on. On Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:48:36 EST Bhansen97_at_aol.com writes: > I'm in agreement with those who say that, for really cold water > (regardless > of air temp) the only safe way to go is with a full Goretex drysuit. > A drytop > won't do the job. I do have a Goretex drytop, and I wear it when the > water > temp gets up to 50 or so - but even then, I'm probably taking a > significant > risk. A drytop won't usually keep you truly dry if you're practicing > rolls. > If you ever come out of your boat, a drytop will first allow your > lower body > to get wet and cold, and soon thereafter you'll notice all that cold > water > wicking up onto your lower torso. > > Don't try to compromise with a coated drysuit. It won't breathe, and > you'll > be so uncomfortable that you won't use it. > > As for discomfort, there is some with a full Goretex suit, but it's > well > worth it. When I paddle even moderately hard during late fall and > winter, the > polys lining my drysuit get wet - even though the drysuit is > Goretex. That's > okay. I have other clothes I can change into. > > As for difficulty getting into the suit, that's minimal. For me, > it's getting > out of the suit which is a bit of a nuisance. That takes about 30-45 > seconds > and a little careful tugging. It certainly isn't a big deal. > > And as for price - well, do you have life insurance? A Goretex > drysuit is by > far the cheapest life insurance policy you'll ever see. > > Get a relief zipper in the suit if you possibly can, unless you're > blessed > with a 6 hour bladder capacity. > > Bill Hansen > ************************************************************************* ** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author > and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > ************************************************************************* ** ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
You should have considered a warranty issue, because Kokotat would have replaced it. They stand behind their products, just about no matter what.. > However, as I swam ashore once on a surf kayaking trip, the crotch > seal blew > open from stem to stern, leaving me exposed in a least two senses. > If this > had happened far at sea or during a multi-day trip, it would have > been > disastrous. (I did not consider this a warranty issue with Kokotat, > as I had > basically given the suit a typical lifetime's worth of use in a few > years.) > ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagh. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>From: "Robert C. Cline" <rccline_at_swbell.net> >Options add a higher initial cost to a dry suit, but probably substantially >extend its lifetime. Kokatat's dry suit has an option for "cordura" >kneepads >and seat pads. My WW instructor, Kevin Stevens of Seattle, wore a >goretex >Kokatat drysuit that was entirely covered with another layer of material, >presumably cordura, like the knee pads, which made the whole suit very >durable and abrasion resistant. > >I would think that the covered dry suits would be as tough as the neoprene >wetsuits and many more times functional. You can wear a drysuit in warm >weather, and use the zipper to regulate heat when the water conditions >permit, but if you are not planning to stay immersed, a wetsuit will cook >you! > >In summary Paul: Get the one piece dry suit if you possibly can! Consider >the add-ons as budget will allow. You are paddling serious water up there. > >Robert Hi Robert, No question that an intact drysuit with appropriate fleece beneath provides substantially more immersion protection than a 3mm farmer john wetsuit. I had such a "dream suit" made for an arctic trip a few years back: a reinforced Kokotat Gore-Tex drysuit with relief zip. I had the factory latex seals replaced at a dive shop with the sort of neoprene seals used on diving drysuits (far more comfortable and durable). At the same time, I had them install integral booties as used in diving drysuits so I could wade ashore without soaking my feet - on longer trips "trench foot" is a serious issue. The suit served me well on the trip - we could work on land and just strip off the drysuit and slap Gore-Tex jacket and pants on without removing the fleece. The suit also served me well for a couple of years once I got back to BC. However, as I swam ashore once on a surf kayaking trip, the crotch seal blew open from stem to stern, leaving me exposed in a least two senses. If this had happened far at sea or during a multi-day trip, it would have been disastrous. (I did not consider this a warranty issue with Kokotat, as I had basically given the suit a typical lifetime's worth of use in a few years.) I also noticed that in BC in the summer, I had a tendency to paddle with the suit unzipped and peeled around my waist to avoid heat discomfort, which meant that had I capsized it would have been worse than useless. Since then I've paddled with the 3mm farmer john previously described. Even worn peeled to the waist, it would provide some protection if I swam. It's certainly true that a drysuit is preferable for winter wear, and as soon as I can afford to replace my "dream suit" I probably will. Philip Torrens N49°16' W123°06' *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> -----Original Message----- > From: Robert C. Cline [mailto:rccline_at_swbell.net] snip > > How long can you stay immersed in 50 to 54 degree water with > the farmer john > before "the shakes" begin? > Upon reading this question it brought to mind the phrase - "Try before you die." Applies to clothing, gear, safety equipment, etc. I frequently will take a swim for a few minutes in my paddling gear before setting out on a cold weather paddle (that's most of the year here<g>). If something isn't right or my reactions aren't normal it's good to find out when the nice warm car is just yards away. (this provides good incentive to hit those braces when needed!!) It's also a good time to practice self-rescues. Robert, congrats on taking the WW course - my feeling is that WW experience and skills cross-over into sea kayaking quite nicely. And WW paddling is FUN in and of itself. Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think a lot depends on the person. Similarly equipped persons will react differently to cold. In mild conditions, I don't think you'd have much trouble recovering from a spill in 50 degree water with a dry top and a farmer john. I had a bit of fun in the middle of a river when I was seperated from my boat with water temps in the 50's. It took 30 minutes or so before I started to really feel the cold. I did get water in my dry top that wicked in through the wet suit material. Once I was back in the boat, I was able to recover from the cold fairly rapidly; having the dry top on helped a lot. A thought on dry tops/suits. Get what you can afford. If you live in a place where dangerous water temps are only really encountered in the winter, having a coated fabric suit is plenty good, I think. If you are paddling in cold water, especially alone, you'll never regret spending the money, but you may well regret not. If you lose track of the boat and have to spend a long time in the water, survival has a lot to do with how well you can keep your head out of the cold. I once read of some WWII era experiments where it was found that chances of survival were much better if the back of the head was kept out of the cold water. For this, your PFD will play a big part and a neoprene balaclava can help. Anyone ever thought of one of these for extreme cold water paddling - an insulated floatation suit: http://www.wiggys.com/html/new_products.html Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Seng" <David_at_wainet.com> To: "'Robert C. Cline'" <rccline_at_swbell.net>; <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 3:40 PM Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] drysuits > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Robert C. Cline [mailto:rccline_at_swbell.net] > > How long can you stay immersed in 50 to 54 degree water with > > the farmer john > > before "the shakes" begin? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>From: "Robert C. Cline" <rccline_at_swbell.net> >Phillip: >How long can you stay immersed in 50 to 54 degree water with the farmer >john >before "the shakes" begin? I've never timed it in terms of minutes, but the general answer is "long enough": 1. To get to shore whenever I've swum in the surf zone at Long Beach. 2. To perform the fine motor skills needed for paddle float re-entries whenever I've practised them, no matter what the time of year (in BC - this would not apply in Ontario:-). 3. To assist in my own "rescue" whenever I've been the instructor/"victim" showing others assisted rescues such as the stirrup rescue. This may involve a fair amount of time in the water as the students get their acts together and we repeat the drill several times. This said, I'm very mindful of how astonishingly fast cold water can deprieve you of the ability to help yourself. I used to do ice diving (I'm PADI certified for this)and on the one occassion my buddie's regulator froze open and free-flowing, his hands were too numb to hold the reg in his mouth, so I keep it in place as we were reeled in by the safety tenders. I also saw an incident in Washington State few years back where a capasized kayaker in a drysuit (though I don't know what, if anything, he had on underneath it) had to be rescued by a passing Zodiac after only about five minutes in the water - he couldn't help himself or assist his buddy in rescueing him. Philip Torrens N49°16' W123°06' *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My experience with coated drysuits is I sweat so much at any proper level of effort, and am so soaked that when I stop paddling I have to get inside quick to avoid a chill. Need a new drysuit anyway since my old one is now a little snug. Ideal would be goretex with relief zip and booties. Should I get neoprene or latex booties? Tom York,ME *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: tompage <tompage_at_sarahleonard.com> >Should I get neoprene or latex booties? Tom, I have no experience with the neoprene booties -- I have the latex, and am very happy with them. I'd imagine that if your feet are large and there's not much tolerance in your cockpit for additional shoe size, then the latex may be the better choice because they are more likely to fit into the footwear you're currently using. Bob Volin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bob wrote, "I have no experience with the neoprene booties -- I have the latex, and am very happy with them. I'd imagine that if your feet are large and there's not much tolerance in your cockpit for additional shoe size, then the latex may be the better choice because they are more likely to fit into the footwear you're currently using." My logic for getting neoprene booties was similar, but the results, obviously, were different. I have average sized feet (10) in low volume boats (Pintail and North Bay), and generally can wear only neoprene socks or very low profile, thin booties even in summer. I did not expect I could wear anything over a drysuit's latex booties and poly socks which would then fit in the cockpit, so I went with thick socks and the built-in neoprene booties 'cause they appear a good deal more robust than the latex counterparts, and probably won't scuff up or wear down in the fiberglass cockpit, as I'd feared latex might. So far, so good. (One year's use, no problems.) Jack *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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