hello again, I just wnated to report that the construction of a homemade paddle is around half way and coming along well, though at 10 pounds I clearly have more planing and sanding to do. This will be my first unfeathered paddle. So far, it is looking like an ugly brute. Anyhow, I will be surprised if my rudimentary wood working skills bring much to fruit. A paddle out of a $7.00 pine board I am writing in search for a use of some neat utility cord that was on sale at Fleet Farm. I bought it and am now wondering what to do with it. 100 ft. of 3/8 in. polypropylene utility rope. 120lb working load and 1200lb. breaking strength. I highly doubt it is of the stretchy kernmantle climbing stuff, but I won't be using it for anything like that. I could make a throwbag, a towbag, a tie down bag or something I haven't thought of yet. Anybody out there have any advice for a guy who loves to tinker with the creation of good working gear? I will probably get started on punching a grommet into an old stuff sack and working some knots and biners into place. I will try to model it after a system I saw at the local paddle shop. Looking for advice from the other tinkerers on the list. Later Phil Huck huck_at_mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu thekayaker_at_yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Phil Huck wrote: snip > I could make a throwbag, a towbag, a tie down bag or something I > haven't thought of yet. > Anybody out there have any advice for a guy who loves to > tinker with > the creation of good working gear? > I will probably get started on punching a grommet into an old stuff > sack and working some knots and biners into place. I will try > to model it > after a system I saw at the local paddle shop. > If you decide to use it for a throw bag you'll want to make sure that the bag itself has some positive flotation. Most throw bags have a disk of foam in the bottom. If you have a "model" at your local paddle shop then this advice probably isn't necessary. Be aware that line of that weight, while fine for some rope rescues, would be marginal at best for some WW rescue uses - especially Z-drags and other mechanical advantage rescues. my .02 Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Phil, I'm planning to use that exact same stuff for my as-yet-unbuilt tow bag. Our shop has both polypropylene and nylon utility rope. (The nylon is shinier, the polypro is duller, and slightly coarser and "harder"). If it's the stuff I'm thinking about, it is kernmantle construction, or at least braid-over-braid, so it has a strong core under a durable sheath. Should be perfect for a tow rope. I'm thinking about just getting the 1/4" 30 lb. work/300 lb. breaking strength stuff--think it's sufficient for towing purposes. (I don't plan to use it for whitewater rescues!) > I am writing in search for a use of some neat utility cord that was >on sale at Fleet Farm. I bought it and am now wondering what to do with >it. 100 ft. of 3/8 in. polypropylene utility rope. 120lb working load and >1200lb. breaking strength. I highly doubt it is of the stretchy kernmantle >climbing stuff, but I won't be using it for anything like that. > I could make a throwbag, a towbag, a tie down bag or something I >haven't thought of yet. It would be perfect for a throwbag or towbag--way too purty for tiedowns! Gabriel Romeu made a really nice tow bag: http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR/022400.htm Shawn -- Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 2000 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>From: "Shawn W. Baker" <baker_at_montana.com> >I'm planning to use that exact same stuff for my as-yet-unbuilt tow bag. > >Our shop has both polypropylene and nylon utility rope. (The nylon is >shinier, the polypro is duller, and slightly coarser and "harder"). > >If it's the stuff I'm thinking about, it is kernmantle construction, or >at least braid-over-braid, so it has a strong core under a durable >sheath. Should be perfect for a tow rope. I'm thinking about just >getting the 1/4" 30 lb. work/300 lb. breaking strength stuff--think it's >sufficient for towing purposes. (I don't plan to use it for whitewater >rescues!) I'm not an engineer (nor do I play one on TV), but do you think that's strong enough? Given that a paddler alone may weigh 150lbs or more, plus the weight of the boat and gear, could bring you to the working load of 300lbs. before you even deal with a dynamic load (boats on either side of a long swell, the jerk on the line as the towing boat comes up to speed and begins to haul the towee) etc. etc. Philip Torrens N49°16' W123°06' *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I dunno?! I'll dig back into my old posts to see the forces involved were...I can't remember who figured it out before... Your math is figuring a static load--a 300 lb. load "hanging" on one end of the rope. I haven't had any rough water tow practice, but on flat water, the load felt like less than 5 lbs. Even when coming up to speed, I don't think it felt like more than 10 lbs. I was towing my brother, and I kept turning around and asking him if he was paddling! I think I need to try it in some rough water to get a more accurate view. I know forces could greatly exceed that on either end of a surging wave. I would think the maximum dynamic load could be a few hundred pounds, but not the average working load. Who was it that did the bungie/towrope calculations? Shawn Philip Torrens wrote: > I'm not an engineer (nor do I play one on TV), but do you think that's > strong enough? Given that a paddler alone may weigh 150lbs or more, plus the > weight of the boat and gear, could bring you to the working load of 300lbs. > before you even deal with a dynamic load (boats on either side of a long > swell, the jerk on the line as the towing boat comes up to speed and begins > to haul the towee) etc. etc. > > Philip Torrens > N49°16' W123°06' -- Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 2000 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:25 PM 3/28/00 -0600, Phil Huck wrote: > Anybody out there have any advice for a guy who loves to tinker with >the creation of good working gear? Just hang on to it. There will come a time that you'll need 20 feet of rope for something -- who knows what -- and there it will be. I used most of the unidentifiable rope I had last fall, tying a tarp onto my sailboat. -- Wes PS -- if this message has already gone through onc, my server is acting up today. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> >From: "Shawn W. Baker" <baker_at_montana.com> > snip > > > >If it's the stuff I'm thinking about, it is kernmantle > construction, or > >at least braid-over-braid, so it has a strong core under a durable > >sheath. Should be perfect for a tow rope. I'm thinking about just > >getting the 1/4" 30 lb. work/300 lb. breaking strength > stuff--think it's > >sufficient for towing purposes. (I don't plan to use it for > whitewater > >rescues!) > Then Phil responded: > I'm not an engineer (nor do I play one on TV), but do you > think that's > strong enough? Given that a paddler alone may weigh 150lbs or > more, plus the > weight of the boat and gear, could bring you to the working > load of 300lbs. > before you even deal with a dynamic load (boats on either > side of a long > swell, the jerk on the line as the towing boat comes up to > speed and begins > to haul the towee) etc. etc. > > Philip Torrens > N49°16' W123°06' > The thought that went through my mind was, "Gee, it would really S#_at_k to be towing an injured friend through some tough water and have that lightweight line break." Something else to remember is that as lines age they deteriorate from sunlight, being walked on, salt crystals, etc. I'd want the added security of a greater breaking strength and sacrifice the few extra ounces and cubic inches.... Didn't one of the Michaels on the list (Noyes, Nevrodosky??) do some fairly involved calculations a while ago regarding possible load factors involved in towing situations? Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>From: "Shawn W. Baker" <baker_at_montana.com> >Your math is figuring a static load--a 300 lb. load "hanging" on one end >of the rope. Douh! Right you are - I was thinking of the "fall factor" for climbing ropes, not the situation where the water supports much of the weight of the loads. That said, I still imagine that a jerk at either end of the tow line (referring, of course, to boats moving in opposite directions - not to the paddlers themselves-:) could exceed several hundred pounds. Glancing through a catalogue of commerical towlines (some sea kayak specific) I don't see anything weaker than 800lbs breaking strength. I think it was Dave K. in Oregon who did the detailed formulas. Dave, Dave, come in Dave, we need you. Philip Torrens N49°16' W123°06' *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I would worry about going to light on the line primarily because of a lack of abrasion resistance. It is very easy to cut or rub through a line that is say 1/4 thick or less. If you have a fat line you can probably cut away 2/3 of it and still have a solid towing system. As for having tow rope loads of hundreds of pounds I would avoid this at all costs! The average towing load is not likely to exceed the output of you paddling your butt off. Try hooking a spring scale on a tow line and then with the rope taught paddling flat out and you will find that even 10 pounds of propulsion force is pretty hard to maintain for a long time. A head wind of about 25 knots for example might add 8 pounds of force to push you the wrong way etc. etc. Shock loading is the key and I am a strong proponant of having a bungie cord on the end of tow line especially if you are going light on you line diameter. To answer the question do I want the tow line to snap while towing my friend in rough conditions? If keeping the tow in place is going to pull on my body or the rear deck ofmy kayak with hundreds of pounds of force I would pray for the line to part before the back of my British heavy gets ripped open. If you have a fairly long tow line rigged such as 30-50 feet the rope gives a bit of stretch and takes up some of the shock loading. However I had a friend who towed someone for six miles in 15 foot seas without a shock cord on his tow line. When the boats decide to surf in different directions he described the impact as like being rear-ended in an auto accident. He was very lucky that neither he or his boat were damaged, and he now uses a bungie to kill the worst of the shock loading when towing in big waves. Some folks tie a loop in the rope so that if the bungie breaks you still have a solid tow line. I just use a heavy enough bungie to take 3/8 inch single or as a loop inspect it for wear often. If the yank at the end of the rope can snap a three foot length of double 3/8 bungie cord I want the towing line to part! Philip Torrens wrote: > >From: "Shawn W. Baker" <baker_at_montana.com> > > >Your math is figuring a static load--a 300 lb. load "hanging" on one end > >of the rope. > > Douh! Right you are - I was thinking of the "fall factor" for climbing > ropes, not the situation where the water supports much of the weight of the > loads. That said, I still imagine that a jerk at either end of the tow line > (referring, of course, to boats moving in opposite directions - not to the > paddlers themselves-:) could exceed several hundred pounds. Glancing through > a catalogue of commerical towlines (some sea kayak specific) I don't see > anything weaker than 800lbs breaking strength. > I think it was Dave K. in Oregon who did the detailed formulas. Dave, Dave, > come in Dave, we need you. > > Philip Torrens > N49°16' W123°06' > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Philip Torrens wrote: > > >From: "Shawn W. Baker" <baker_at_montana.com> > > >Your math is figuring a static load--a 300 lb. load "hanging" on one end > >of the rope. > > Douh! Right you are - I was thinking of the "fall factor" for climbing > ropes, not the situation where the water supports much of the weight of the > loads. That said, I still imagine that a jerk at either end of the tow line > (referring, of course, to boats moving in opposite directions - not to the > paddlers themselves-:) could exceed several hundred pounds. Glancing through > a catalogue of commerical towlines (some sea kayak specific) I don't see > anything weaker than 800lbs breaking strength. > I think it was Dave K. in Oregon who did the detailed formulas. Dave, Dave, > come in Dave, we need you. I did a back of the envelope thing, but I think it was Neverdosky who did the real math. IIRC, we came to a consensus of a couple hundred pounds, **unless** you get caught towing in a surf zone. But, then, you shouldn't be towing in a surf zone (and you soon will **not** be, if a sizable wave breaks on you or the towee!). -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> -----Original Message----- > From: wanewman_at_uswest.net [mailto:wanewman_at_uswest.net] > > Shock loading is the key and I am a strong proponant of > having a bungie cord on > the end of tow line especially if you are going light on you > line diameter. To > answer the question do I want the tow line to snap while > towing my friend in > rough conditions? If keeping the tow in place is going to > pull on my body or > the rear deck ofmy kayak with hundreds of pounds of force I > would pray for the > line to part before the back of my British heavy gets ripped open. While I agree with almost everything wanewman wrote, let's not forget the importance of having a good quick-release in _any_ towing system. There's no way I would ever want my body ripped forcibly from my kayak (belt tow system) because the strength of my tow line was too high ----- I want to always be able to decide to abort the tow at any time because of perceived danger (the relationship between real and perceived danger is another thread in and of itself and has been flogged around several times in the list). I wouldn't want to rely on the fact that _the system_ would fail before the tow-er was put into a dangerous or position. I think that we're really all in agreement on this issue, but I just wanted to stress the quick release concept in case someone fairly new to the sport or the idea of towing hooks into this thread. Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska (heading for Anchorage and snow for a few days) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My tow belt was mentioned earlier. I found a quick release system used by 'hunter tree climbers' (fit them in evolutionary theory) at the local army surplus/hunting store. they came packaged as a pair of thick web belts with a connecting band for 9.00 US- that's two of them. 2" wide and about .1" wide. Quite heavy duty compared to the others I have seen. The modification that is not on the website is a bead on a string attached to a through hole on the buckle which would facilitate release a tiny bit faster. > While I agree with almost everything wanewman wrote, let's not forget the > importance of having a good quick-release in _any_ towing system. There's > no way I would ever want my body ripped forcibly from my kayak (belt tow > system) clip of other relevant information > I think that we're really all in agreement on this issue, but I just > wanted to stress the quick release concept in case someone fairly new to the > sport or the idea of towing hooks into this thread. > > -- : : Gabriel L Romeu : http://studiofurniture.com furniture from the workshop : http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR life as a tourist, daily journal : http://users.aol.com/romeugp paintings, photographs, etchings, objects *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Under the guilty confessions category.....I years ago used a tow line with just a caribeener release. Easy to release under tension but impossible to release under pressure. I was planning to get one of those nice cam-cleat releases, but when would you really need one. Well after a bit of a problem trip where I had a paddler capsize four times I ended up putting him in his boat with the dual paddle float training wheels and towing him. The guy had a had a long day already and knowing that I was taking a bit of risk I towed him in through some moderate surf of 3-5 feet to keep the poor SOB from having to hit the water. If I had to do it again I probably would have rafted up with him and side surfed in tandem or just had him bail out and swim in on my bow. The start of the tow was great since his boat acted as a sea anchor and even on the steep waves I was not being surfed. About half way in I saw the rope shoot out in front of me and all I could think was (I wish I had spent 20 bucks on that cam-cleat!). No harm done I surfed sideways and backwards in with the towed kayak towing me. I had a knife handy and I could have cut my way loose if I had flipped and gotten tangled. I landed on the beach right side up, but it sure would have been nice to release that line with a flick of the wrist. Don't flame me for being foolish. I was taking a small risk to look after someones comfort. Like I say in the future I would either ride the raft or say tough luck, I don't care how cold you are but your swiming the last 30 yards. The cam-cleat system I now use is easy to release and in true BCU fashion I even practice releasing it "whilst upside down". The most hairy towing incident that I ever heard of was a guide buddy (name delleted to protect the not so innocent) who towed and empty kayak back so a friend of his would not have to head out into surf that was a little over his head. It was just a 1/2 mile back to the car and he was just going to tow the boat back out and then back to shore. Well that mega-rogue wave grabbed him back-ender his kayak, and when he set up to roll he discovered his arms were lashed to his sides! Not cool. He could still pop his spray skirt and worm his way loose, but he never got casual about entanglement hazards again. Dave Seng wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: wanewman_at_uswest.net [mailto:wanewman_at_uswest.net] > > > > Shock loading is the key and I am a strong proponant of > > having a bungie cord on > > the end of tow line especially if you are going light on you > > line diameter. To > > answer the question do I want the tow line to snap while > > towing my friend in > > rough conditions? If keeping the tow in place is going to > > pull on my body or > > the rear deck ofmy kayak with hundreds of pounds of force I > > would pray for the > > line to part before the back of my British heavy gets ripped open. > > While I agree with almost everything wanewman wrote, let's not forget the > importance of having a good quick-release in _any_ towing system. There's > no way I would ever want my body ripped forcibly from my kayak (belt tow > system) because the strength of my tow line was too high ----- I want to > always be able to decide to abort the tow at any time because of perceived > danger (the relationship between real and perceived danger is another thread > in and of itself and has been flogged around several times in the list). I > wouldn't want to rely on the fact that _the system_ would fail before the > tow-er was put into a dangerous or position. > I think that we're really all in agreement on this issue, but I just > wanted to stress the quick release concept in case someone fairly new to the > sport or the idea of towing hooks into this thread. > > Dave Seng > Juneau, Alaska > (heading for Anchorage and snow for a few days) > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Shawn W. Baker" wrote: > > I dunno?! I'll dig back into my old posts to see the forces involved > were...I can't remember who figured it out before... > > Your math is figuring a static load--a 300 lb. load "hanging" on one end > of the rope. I haven't had any rough water tow practice, but on flat > water, the load felt like less than 5 lbs. Even when coming up to > speed, I don't think it felt like more than 10 lbs. I was towing my > brother, and I kept turning around and asking him if he was paddling! I > think I need to try it in some rough water to get a more accurate view. > I know forces could greatly exceed that on either end of a surging > wave. I would think the maximum dynamic load could be a few hundred > pounds, but not the average working load. > > Who was it that did the bungie/towrope calculations? > > Shawn If your a fishing guy/gal you could attach a hanging fish scale (not the outer fish garment) in line and get some calculations. I use this method to determine counter weights on furniture. I would think that if I got 300 lb. of pressure on a line which attached to me or my boat I would want it to break... -- : : Gabriel L Romeu : http://studiofurniture.com furniture from the workshop : http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR life as a tourist, daily journal : http://users.aol.com/romeugp paintings, photographs, etchings, objects *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Phil, Well I guess that depends weather you're planning to tow him or air lift him :-) Ed, Atlanta Kayakers' Webmiester The Atlanta Kayakers Website address is : http://atlkayakers.home.mindspring.com/kayak Phil Wrote: I'm not an engineer (nor do I play one on TV), but do you think that's strong enough? Given that a paddler alone may weigh 150lbs or more, plus the weight of the boat and gear, could bring you to the working load of 300lbs. before you even deal with a dynamic load (boats on either side of a long swell, the jerk on the line as the towing boat comes up to speed and begins to haul the towee) etc. etc. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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