On the subject of attaching D-rings, I was planning on something similar to what is being discussed in another thread, but primarily to secure stuff in the fairly roomy cockpit area behind my seat. To avoid drilling holes in the side or bottom of my kayak I was trying to come up with a way to attach D-rings in various places by either fiberglassing them in or using some sort of glued-on attachment . Anyone have any ideas on a good way to do this? Evan Dallas Woodinville, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> On the subject of attaching D-rings, I was planning on something similar to what is being discussed in another thread, but primarily to secure stuff in the fairly roomy cockpit area behind my seat. To avoid drilling holes in the side or bottom of my kayak I was trying to come up with a way to attach D-rings in various places by either fiberglassing them in or using some sort of glued-on attachment . Anyone have any ideas on a good way to do this? Evan Dallas Woodinville, WA >> I would find a rod that was the same diameter (or larger) as the bar on the D-ring, grease it, lay it on a flat sheet of heavy plastic film on my workbench, drape fiberglass cloth over it, and add resin. When it was set, I would remove the rod and cut the fiberglass into strips that would fit through the D-ring, and then glue them (with the D-rings) into the boat using fiberglass resin. If the surface of the boat was curved, I would modify the procedure somewhat. To make the bottom of the fitting as flat as possible, after you have wet out the cloth, place a piece of plastic film over it, and place a chunk of 2 x 4 on either side of the rod until the resin has set. This is approximately the procedure I use to make fittings from pieces of old tent poles, except that the pole pieces are a permanent part of the fitting. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Evan Dallas wrote:"To avoid drilling holes in the side or bottom of my kayak I was trying to come up with a way to attach D-rings in various places by either fiberglassing them in or using some sort of glued-on attachment . Anyone have any ideas on a good way to do this?" Try short rope loops glassed to the inside of the hull. I've taken lengths of 8mm diameter braided cord, about 7 cm long roughed and fanned out the ends, and dipped each end in epoxy resin. Each end is then glued to a prepared (sanded) area, leaving the middle of the rope raised enough to pass a bungy cord under. Fix a number of these at suitable points inside the cockpit, pass bungy cord under with an olive cleat, giving a versatile attachment point. So far none have pulled off. Regards, PT. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Since we are discussing the attachment of D-rings, I'd like to take the opportunity of repeating a technique I've reported on before for the benefit of new people. I have had good success using nylon cable tie mounts. The cable ties are the serrated straps that are used to hold wires in a nice bundle. Suppliers of these straps (i.e. electrical equipment supply houses) also supply kits that have mounting pads that are epoxied to a surface and the cable tie threads through them. The kits I have were made by "Panduit" and come with little containers of epoxy, mixing cup and stick. After the pads are attached, I install a cable tie leaving about a one inch diameter loop. I then use this as a place for attaching bungee cords. I have these pads in both my forward and aft hatch areas and also tether my hatch covers to them. I also have them on the underside of my deck, just forward of the cockpit opening and that is where I now store my hand pump. I really like that the pads are low profile and I have found that the epoxy holds really well. Bill Leonhardt ps See page 83 of the Cable Ties and Wiring Accessories catalog at: http://www.panduit.com/catalogs/en/sa101n275c-wc/index.htm *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bill, would the epoxy pads be suitable for plastic boats? -Nick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: Peter Treby [mailto:ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au] snip > Fix a > number of these at suitable points inside the cockpit, pass > bungy cord under with an > olive cleat, giving a versatile attachment point. So far none > have pulled off. Oh No!! <grin> Not the olive cleat thing again! I've been reading about olive cleats for years now and still can't picture what they look like or how they work. Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Seng writes: "Oh No!! <grin> Not the olive cleat thing again! I've been reading about olive cleats for years now and still can't picture what they look like or how they work." I've had a little trawl of the internet trying for a picture, with no success, so here goes... An olive cleat is attached to one end of a length of 6 mm bungy cord, allowing the other end to be passed back through the olive cleat, adjusted to any length, and locked off securing the loop. Imagine a plastic barrel, (or an elongated acorn, or uhmmmm, an OLIVE!) 45mm long, and 18 mm in diameter at the widest point, at the centre of the barrell. The barrell has an 11mm hole at right angles to the long axis, through the centre (hole A). Between hole A and one end of the barrell is a second similar hole (hole B). Hole B is joined to the end of the barrell by a smaller hole 6 mm in diameter drilled along the centre of the long axis of the barrell. The fixed end of the bungy loop is pushed up this, out hole B, and knotted with a simple overhand knot, and pulled back to fix it. Back to hole A.... Hole A has a channel 6 mm wide running from it to the other end of the barrell. This channel is lined with three diagonal ridges on each side, like other fixed deckcleats e.g. see http://www.ronstan.com/vcleat.html for a picture of the principle here. The free end of the bungy is passed through hole A from the side opposite the channel, and pulled into the channel to secure it. The channel narrows at the end of the cleat to about 3-4mm, to further compress the bungy cord and lock it in position. Clear as mud? Dave, send me $20 AUD to PO Box 118 Heidelberg Victoria Australia 3084 and I'll send as many as I can to you for whatever freight and cleats the twenty bucks will cover. The cleats themselves cost the princely sum of $1.20 each. They are very handy. Regards, Peter T. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Actually, I've used these wire ties for bunches of thing. They come in different length so have a wide variety of applications. I absolutely despise the plastic clips on most marine equipment. They are so hard to get off the deck lines or pad eyes. I threaded 4 of the wire ties to the slots the deck lines go through on my front deck and I hook my deck bag to them. I even rigged a paddle park out of them at one point on the Breeze. I use them anywhere I think I might want to cut things loose but need a "permanent" installation. Admittedly, they will weather but the black ones are UV resistant and when the things get brittle they are a "snap" to replace. I've added the things to my auto repair kit, my catchall of a purse and all through my horseback riding equipment. I've even used them to attach the latch to the horse's gate! Joan Spinner * * * Gratefully paddling again on the Chesapeake Bay watershed-a red, CD Breeze and a yellow/white Gulfstream In a message dated 3/3/00 3:29:25 PM, WJLeonhardt_at_bnl.gov writes: << Since we are discussing the attachment of D-rings, I'd like to take the opportunity of repeating a technique I've reported on before for the benefit of new people. I have had good success using nylon cable tie mounts. The cable ties are the serrated straps that are used to hold wires in a nice bundle. Suppliers of these straps (i.e. electrical equipment supply houses) also supply kits that have mounting pads that are epoxied to a surface and the cable tie threads through them. The kits I have were made by "Panduit" and come with little containers of epoxy, mixing cup and stick. After the pads are attached, I install a cable tie leaving about a one inch diameter loop. I then use this as a place for attaching bungee cords. >> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
JSpinner_at_aol.com wrote: > > Actually, I've used these wire ties for bunches of thing. > a "permanent" installation. Admittedly, they will weather but the black ones > are UV resistant and when the things get brittle they are a "snap" to replace. I had the black UV resistant wire ties on the roof rack of my mini-van for 3 years. The car was never garaged and left in the open all the time. When I finally junked the car, the wire ties were still intact and as strong as ever. Some ties do say they are UV-resistant and those seem to have worked well. Wire ties are also good around a folding kayak. Some frame wind up eventually getting loose where long pieces meet with crossribs. Wire ties are helpful to keep things tight (although I prefer velcro straps for this). Also some folding kayaks have frames in which the long pieces really don't snap into notches or holders on crossribs, specifically Folbot. Wire ties are handy here. I generally will use a wire tie here and there on a folding kayak if I know I intend to leave it assembled for a few months and plan to cartop in which pieces may shift slightly out of place in the handling. ralph ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/3/00 9:20:04 PM Central Standard Time, n.v.rob_at_deltanet.com writes: << Bill, would the epoxy pads be suitable for plastic boats? -Nick >> Plastic is easy, just rough up the area (with sand paper) that you want to mount the pad with D-ring to, an use an adhesive such as Vynabond, slap it down and let it set up. Excellent holding power. - Dan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:56 AM 3/4/00 EST, DANJW_at_aol.comwrote: >In a message dated 3/3/00 9:20:04 PM Central Standard Time, >n.v.rob_at_deltanet.com writes: > ><< Bill, would the epoxy pads be suitable for plastic boats? > > -Nick > >> >Plastic is easy, just rough up the area (with sand paper) that you want to >mount the pad with D-ring to, an use an adhesive such as Vynabond, slap it >down and let it set up. Excellent holding power. > > - Dan Hi List, I'm not familiar with Vynabond, so I won't comment there. I have been impressed with ability of the epoxy supplied with the pads to bond to fiberglass (as in my boat), painted aluminum, a carbon/epoxy structure and, most impressive, to the plastic material of the mount. BTW, the mount has ridges on its glue side to help the epoxy bonding process. Lately, I've learned a little about epoxy bonding. In addition to surface preparation (cleanliness, godliness and all that), it is important to have a defined space for the epoxy. Bonds fail when you clamp two pieces together simply because you squeeze out all the glue. Many successful epoxy joints are realized by adding glass beads to the epoxy which maintains an epoxy bond line when items are clamped together. What has this to do with bonding to plastic boats? I'll get to that. My limited experience with observing plastic boats (both mine and those of others) is that the appearance of the surface can vary from on boat to the other. I suspect that there are differences in the material (cross-linked vs. linear PE vs. ???) and I suspect that some adhesives work better than others for different cases. Therefore, for bonding to plastic boats, I would: 1. Test my proposed glue on both the mount and an inconspicious area of the boat. After curing, really yank on that sucker. 2. Be sure to use a pad that has ridges on the glue side so that a better bond is achieved. Good luck, Bill Leonhardt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > I suspect that there are differences in the material (cross-linked > vs. linear PE vs. ???) and I suspect that some adhesives work better than > others for different cases. Therefore, for bonding to plastic boats, I would: > My boats "owners manual" (Perception Shadow) states to contact Perception/Aquaterria for a list of approved adhesives though I guess that is the standard disclaimer. My worry is that epoxy might be too "hot" as it goes off for a plastic boat. I've mixed a big batch (2-3 oz.) of WEST system for a project and I had a meltdown of the plastic mixing cup. I doubt if it would melt a plastic kayak but I still don't want weak spots in the hull through an adverse chemical reaction. I'm not familiar with Vynabond either Dave, so if you could shed a little light in advance, TIA. -Nick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/4/00 9:17:22 PM Central Standard Time, n.v.rob_at_deltanet.com writes: << y boats "owners manual" (Perception Shadow) states to contact Perception/Aquaterria for a list of approved adhesives though I guess that is the standard disclaimer. My worry is that epoxy might be too "hot" as it goes off for a plastic boat. I've mixed a big batch (2-3 oz.) of WEST system for a project and I had a meltdown of the plastic mixing cup. I doubt if it would melt a plastic kayak but I still don't want weak spots in the hull through an adverse chemical reaction. I'm not familiar with Vynabond either Dave, so if you could shed a little light in advance, TIA. -Nick >> I've double checked my recommendation to use Vynabond - let me say that I am about 90% certain that it is the adhesive I used to attach 2 D-rings to a plastic yak. Take this statement (with a grain of salt), as I am also 90% certain that I know where I placed the tube of adhesive, but cannot now find it. At any rate Vynabond is listed in the Northwest River Supplies catalogue as a "vinyl adhesive for PVC boat repair or or attaching D-rings to dry bags and ABS canoes". It bears a resemblance, in consistency and appearance, to airplane cement or PVC cement. Probably creates a bond by "melting" itself into the plastic. A strong bond is created Dan Williams, who is 90% certain that the advice is sound - ............. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>At any rate Vynabond is listed in the Northwest River Supplies catalogue >as a "vinyl adhesive for PVC boat repair or or attaching D-rings to dry bags >and ABS canoes". It bears a resemblance, in consistency and appearance, to >airplane cement or PVC cement. Probably creates a bond by "melting" itself >into the plastic. A strong bond is created > I've used Vynabond for attaching D rings to ABS canoes (well, actually the vinyl skin on the inside) and I will use no other for this purpose. No, it does not melt into the plastic. If I have to remove the D-ring I can completely clean away the adhesive and leave no trace. While it works well on vinyl, I'm not so sure it will work as well on plain plastic. I have successfully used a glue called "HydroGrip", which is sold under the Perception label and can be found in the Nantahala catalog. This one really hangs on. I've also used E-6000 (essentially the same as Marine Goop) as a contact cement directly onto ABS and other plastics. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Joe Pylka wrote: > I have successfully used a glue called "HydroGrip", which > is sold under the Perception label and can be found in the Nantahala > catalog. This one really hangs on. I've used HydroGrip on several plastic boats (whitewater and touring) to attach foam padding with great results. It's super strong stuff. I tried to remove some of the padding in my whitewater boat to change the outfitting, and it was all but impossible to get it all off (I ended up just sanding it down almost to the plastic and applied the new Hydrogrip and foam onto that little bit of foam/dried Hydrogrip. I would imagine that getting a D-ring off would be somewhat easier, though. Cheers, Steve =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Steven Jarvis sjarvis_at_dicksonstreet.com Fayetteville, Arkansas USA =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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