I hope this isn't like opening a can of worms. If it is, just everyone please ignore it and I'll get the idea. Please, no flames. I've heard all the arguments, and I agree with all of them already <g>. I was wondering how many people like to carry a gun on trips in wilderness areas. I'm thinking of doing some solo paddling in Northern Maine this year (lakes and rivers). I've read several accounts by people who were glad they had a shotgun with them (moose, bears, etc). The last thing on earth I want is to ever have to kill a wild animal (my Mother tells me I cried as a child when the neighborhood brats killed a squirrel). But I do know how to use firearms. Also, if you do carry a gun, what do you carry? And where? There isn't a whole lot of room in the cockpit of my boat (CD Caribou). I was thinking of having a bag made to carry it on the foredeck, but that could send the wrong "message" to humans I might encounter. . . . Thoughts, opinions, anecdotes. . . ? Thanks, Mark L *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Good morning Mark, All, > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Sailboat > > I hope this isn't like opening a can of worms. Of course it's opening a can of worms. It has the media's favorite whipping boy in it as well as a whole variety of other issues. Opening the can is good though, it oxygenates the worms and keeps them fresh. > > I was wondering how many people like to carry a gun on trips in wilderness > areas. I'm thinking of doing some solo paddling in Northern > Maine this year > (lakes and rivers). I've read several accounts by people who > were glad they > had a shotgun with them (moose, bears, etc). I was born in Maine and lived there most of my life. There is no animal in the Maine woods that you are likely to need a gun to defend yourself against. The only possible exception to that is people. To the best of my recollection there have only been two bear attacks in Maine in recent history and both involve hunters over bait. Don't mess with a bears chow. (I realize that bears in other parts of the country can be more aggressive, This has not been my experience in Maine) Yes, moose can be aggressive-bulls in rut, and cows with calves. Other than those two scenarios they are fine. Though you may be able to stop a bear with a shotgun (if you have nerves of steel, lightning quick reflexes, great aim, and are already holding the gun) it is in my opinion that you would not stop a moose. A moose charging (or even standing still) facing head on has a very slim profile and presents no shot at vitals. It is my opinion that you would do just as well with a baseball bat as a gun in a moose charge. The last thing on > earth I want > is to ever have to kill a wild animal (my Mother tells me I cried > as a child > when the neighborhood brats killed a squirrel). But I do know how to use > firearms. If you have not recently hunted and taken game what makes you think that you would be able to now? Moving game is extremely challenging for those in practice. I can't imagine being effective without lots of experience. > Also, if you do carry a gun, what do you carry? And where? There isn't a > whole lot of room in the cockpit of my boat (CD Caribou). I was > thinking of > having a bag made to carry it on the foredeck, but that could > send the wrong > "message" to humans I might encounter. . . . Your questions raise a couple of my own. What guns do you presently own that you can choose from? Or will you be buying a new one? How much practice have you had in recent months? Although I think that it is clear that I don't think there is any reason to carry a gun for protection from large animals in the Maine woods I realize that this is a personal decision and you should do what you think best within the context of you skill and training. As to choice of guns. Take the weapon that you are most trained and skilled with. If you don't have lots of recent practice leave them all at home. Any gun you chose to carry will need to be stainless or one of the marine grade shotguns. A deck bag is the only way I know of that will allow you to to effectively carry a long gun and all of that condensation is really hard on them. Make sure you know how to field strip and clean/oil whatever you carry. If sea kayaking requires dedication and training to be safe, than firearms require double diligence. If you do something stupid with a kayak you may kill yourself, if you do something stupid with a gun you may kill me. Big Difference. Cheers, Rob Cookson- Worms? I ain't afraid of no worms? "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:17 AM 04/18/2000 -0000, Sailboat Restorations, Inc. wrote: >I was wondering how many people like to carry a gun on trips in wilderness >areas. . > >Also, if you do carry a gun, what do you carry? And where? >I was thinking of >having a bag made to carry it on the foredeck, but that could send the wrong >"message" to humans I might encounter. . . . Hi Mark et al. If I'm traveling into areas where bears are likely to be a problem, I will usually drag my pappys ol' 44mag along. If boating, I wrap it in an oiled cloth and stuff it in a small dry bag along with my camera and two-way radio. If I'm backpacking, and don't have the dogs along (dogs are the best bear repellant), I carry it holstered on the waist band of my pack. It's been a long time since I've worried too much about what "message" I'm sending. I don't hunt, and thankfully have never had occasion use the thing; in fact, the only time it gets fired is on infrequent visits to the range. Even then, it's not a real popular choice due to the savage recoil. My only real concern is nocturnal visitors, so I generally sleep with it under my pillow. Lest this seem strange, when at home it lives in the headboard of the waterbed, close at hand. I don't feel that this is any more paranoid than bringing along a raincoat, and in lieu of anecdotes, I will pass along a couple of thoughts handed down from my grandpa: * If you bring it and don't use it, ya still gotta carry it, but if you need it and don't have it . . . (applies to many things in life) * Ain't nothing more useless than a gun that's not loaded. * Never point a weapon at anything ya ain't prepared to kill. Finally, for those of you shaking your heads in shocked disbelief, consider this. I carry and use a knife daily, both at work and at play (that, and a pair of chop-sticks make up my kitchen kit . . . and I can make another set of 'sticks). It is always right at hand, and I keep it razor sharp. A far more deadly tool than a pistol for close combat, IMHO, but nobody ever gives it a second glance. Why is that d'ya suppose? ByeBye! S. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sailboat Restorations, Inc. wrote: > > I hope this isn't like opening a can of worms. If it is, just everyone > please ignore it and I'll get the idea. Please, no flames. I've heard all > the arguments, and I agree with all of them already <g>. > > I was wondering how many people like to carry a gun on trips in wilderness > areas. I'm thinking of doing some solo paddling in Northern Maine this year > (lakes and rivers). I've read several accounts by people who were glad they > had a shotgun with them (moose, bears, etc). The last thing on earth I want > is to ever have to kill a wild animal (my Mother tells me I cried as a child > when the neighborhood brats killed a squirrel). But I do know how to use > firearms. You are not opening a can of worms at all. Just about every _real_ sea kayaker I know has at least two sidearms with him or her. It hasn't been mentioned at all on PaddleWise because it was considered so ordinary and common-sensical like wearing croakies for your glasses or having toilet paper with you. Paddlers differ in small degrees regarding these sidearms. Such as what caliber. But it is no big deal to carry a gun. > > Also, if you do carry a gun, what do you carry? And where? There isn't a > whole lot of room in the cockpit of my boat (CD Caribou). I was thinking of > having a bag made to carry it on the foredeck, but that could send the wrong > "message" to humans I might encounter. . . . It is best to carry a large caliber pistol tucked into your waistband with the safety off. You never know when you might need it; while it is risky to have the safety off, sea kayaking, as you know from reading the tales of PaddleWise, is risky anyway and one more risk won't matter much. An exception on the waist tuck-in carry position is in urban paddling. At such times, you want the gun on display preferably in a shoulder holster so when landing on an inner city beach, you will blend in and nobody will want to mess with you. BTW, having a gun on display doesn't work well in Maine because moose have poor eyesight and won't be deterred by a gun's presence. Which leads to an un orthodox thought. Why not carry lettuce for the moose or berries for the bear? This way you will not be disrupting the environment with noise and shell casings. And if you don't run into such animal threats, you can eat the stuff yourself. > > Thoughts, opinions, anecdotes. . . ? If you are seriously thinking of carrying a gun I want to bring up something that does follow an earlier discussion, rusting and corrosion, which I think you may recall. The standard advice to seakayakers regarding firearms is to have ones with stainless steel barrels (despite the shortcomings of this metal in a marine environment). I remember a talk given by Derek Hutchinson about carrying an SS ( abbreviation for stainless steel, not the SS, Schutzstaffel-- the elite Nazi troops) shotgun. He had it located in a cradle below his foredeck. He went into a long discussion of whether to have the barrel pointing away from him or not. Basically he weighed the issue of whether to risk blowing a hole in his boat or in himself and being the good boat designer that he is Derek opted for aiming it at himself rather than at his creation. Of course, aiming it at himself risked another part of his creative ability but Brits, as we know from their extraordinarily heavy boats, are quite stoic and resigned about such things. I hope this answer proves helpful ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Once again Ralph, you are a guiding light and a voice of reason. My helmet is off to you. I myself have outfitted my K-Light with a double shotgun rack retrofitted from the old chevy pickup truck I used to have when I lived out west. I find it useful, giving me an extra air of confidence when I make my South Bronx putins. Lettice and berries don't cut it up there, as we know. Lately I have been thinking, perhaps you or others know if there exists an accesorry paddle blade which can fit arround the barrel of one of my guns to provide me a spare paddle if need be? I would then be able to kill two birds with one bullet, sorta speak. Thanks, Norman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> -----Original Message----- > From: Sailboat Restorations, Inc. > [mailto:sailboatrestorations_at_worldnet.att.net] >snip > > I was wondering how many people like to carry a gun on trips > in wilderness > areas. I'm thinking of doing some solo paddling in Northern > Maine this year > (lakes and rivers). It's semantics - I _do not like_ to carry a gun, but occasionally do (trips on Admiralty Island primarily). I live and play in an area where bears, both brown and black, are quite common and it's unusual for a year to pass without someone being mauled or killed by a bear. Since you indicated that you weren't looking for a discussion on _whether_ or not toting a gun is appropriate I won't go there - too much. In some parts of the world it's common sense, in other it's nonsense. > Also, if you do carry a gun, what do you carry? And where? 12 gauge shotgun, SS barrel and receiver, composite stock, loaded with 00 buckshot and slugs. Carried in cockpit - cause that's the only practical place. The only time I could ever imagine needing it is on shore - no need for a quick draw from the boat! - just paddle away. Heck, on land just walk away.....that's what I've done the times I've encountered bears. Common sense and knowledge of animal behavior and patterns (stay away from salmon streams when the bears are feeding for example) will do a lot better job of protecting you than a gun. As I've posted in the past - 'tis much better to _avoid_ a problem than it is to figure out how to get out of one. A friend of mine who has lived, worked and played in the forests of SE Alaska for many years often says regarding carrying a gun (which she does regularly in bear country), "Basically the only reason for carrying a gun is so that the bear will be "marked" if it attacks me. That way they'll know which bear to kill when they hunt it down." Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I carry a 30.06 on multi-week canoe trips on the Barrenground in Canada...for grizzly. I have met other far northern canoeists with MANY more years experience than me , who carry nothing of the sort. Once in the Yukon a 2nd-yearling black bear cornered my wife in the tent one morning, 3 attempts to chase it off failed, so I shot it and felt miserable. Once in Saskatchewan (on the northern Peace River), had an orphan (courtesy of spring bear hunters) yearling black bear, hanging around camp for 3 or 4 hours....unable to drive it away (despite repeated attempts)... same fate. So it was useful twice, though perhaps not so much the 2nd time. But these were multi-week one-way river trips, where the inconvenience of getting the food trashed by the bear, or a mauling, or the tent damaged outweighed other considerations. NEITHER of these trips are high on my "memory lane' of trips, probably for because of what happened. One in the Yukon ( on another trip to the Canol Heritage Trail) we were chided by a group on naturalists who ran a nature lodge, for carrying a gun. Though, after a moments hesitation they also mentioned that the natives never went into the bush without a rifle, and admitted that they were often saw grizzlies, near the lodge but mentioned that they also travelled in groups of 6-8 people. On the Lockhart River (MacKay Lake) NWT we met a solo kayaker, who had borrowed a "cap-pistol" type device from an outfitter , which he though was pretty worthless. Of interest was the fact that all of his campsites were on rocky little islands in the lake because of his fear of bears (grizzly)... his "ursaphobia"probably impacted his trip more than the weight of a rifle, and/or the philosophical implications thereof! This summer we will be up on the Arctic Coast/ Bathurst Inlet for 7 weeks...in the southern limit of polar bears, and in grizzly country. The rifle comes along. Pepper spray ( which my wife now carries, because of her aversion to shooting bears) is of limited utility in 20 mph winds. Often I realize that for the 7lb weight of a rifle I could carry 2-350 ml bottles of 20 year old single malt Scotch. Far more useful in actuality. I think it's a personal decision. At the risk of being flippant, I think it's stupid, a waste of weight, a potential danger, BUT if you sleep better for it, it's worth the foolishness. (Sort of like the nerdy 15 year old virgin boy who carries a condom in his wallet.. Semper paratus). My opinion, which sells for < $0.02. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sailboat Restorations, Inc." <sailboatrestorations_at_worldnet.att.net> To: <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 4:17 AM Subject: [Paddlewise] Guns? When and Where? > I hope this isn't like opening a can of worms. If it is, just everyone > please ignore it and I'll get the idea. Please, no flames. I've heard all > the arguments, and I agree with all of them already <g>. > > I was wondering how many people like to carry a gun on trips in wilderness > areas. I'm thinking of doing some solo paddling in Northern Maine this year > (lakes and rivers). I've read several accounts by people who were glad they > had a shotgun with them (moose, bears, etc). The last thing on earth I want > is to ever have to kill a wild animal (my Mother tells me I cried as a child > when the neighborhood brats killed a squirrel). But I do know how to use > firearms. > > Also, if you do carry a gun, what do you carry? And where? There isn't a > whole lot of room in the cockpit of my boat (CD Caribou). I was thinking of > having a bag made to carry it on the foredeck, but that could send the wrong > "message" to humans I might encounter. . . . > > Thoughts, opinions, anecdotes. . . ? > > Thanks, > > Mark L > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> My >opinion, which sells for < $0.02. Please send an address and I'll gladly send payment <g>. Thanks very much to all who responded. I received far more responses off PW than on, and I appreciate all of them. To those who felt the need to respond sarcastically, I certainly understand and respect your viewpoints (but perhaps not your desire to inflict them on me). I grew up in the South, and guns were sort of a part of our lives (judge that, if you like, but it's simply a fact). I'm very familiar with, and quite competent with, a variety of firearms. I don't want to argue with anyone about guns as a general matter (indeed, I will *not* do so), and I had asked please not to flame, as I've heard all the arguments. I just wanted some practical thoughts about what/when/where to carry. To those who offered it, thank you very much. Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Mark, > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Sailboat <SNIP> > Thanks very much to all who responded. I received far more > responses off PW > than on, and I appreciate all of them. It's good that you got the information you were seeking, however it is unfortunate that the responses were back channel. It seems to me that the main purpose of a list like this is to disseminate information so that the whole group benefits. Just out of curiosity what decision did you reach? Cheers, -- Rob Cookson 3 Hats Design INTERNET PRINT ILLUSTRATION 5201 15 Ave NW Suite 220 Seattle, WA 98107 206.851.8202 direct line 206.784.1641 main office phone 206.784.2231 main office fax mailto:rob_at_3hats.com http://www.3hats.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark I'd opt for pepper spray. Not CS or CN (tear gas), it has no effect on most animals. Look for the OC in the strongest solution you can get. My employer issues me 10%, but the strongest civilians can get in my state is 5%. It works on just about all mammals, although I've had it fail on a few humans, and you won't get the Fish&Game folks trying to hang you out to dry like they will for dispatching the wrong critter. If you still want to pack, I know a little bit about that. What: Long guns are unwieldy in a close environment like a small tent. For defensive firearms I'd get a 44 mag. revolver with a 6 inch barrel in stainless steel and load it with the heaviest hollow-points I could find. Of course, all the little parts inside aren't stainless steel, so a very small amount of salt-water means an extensive cleaning. I'd stay away from semi-autos, they are not nearly as reliable in dirty and wet situations without constant care. Where: Where it is lawful. I've arrested a lot of creeps with guns, but also a few otherwise decent citizens who for whatever reasons were illegally packing. It ruined their whole day. Where if legal: Within reach. I don't mean to be flippant, but I can bore you to death with stories of guys who had all sorts of fancy spots for guns and couldn't get to them at just the wrong time. When: Within reach when you're asleep. Elsewhere before you think you might need it. Sort of like a PFD. When you need it, it's too late to put it on. Can't see much reason to need it while on the water. Special note: Most folks don't know what happens when you shoot a large mammal in a non-hunting situation where you can't take careful aim. It ain't like the movies. They don't get "knocked-down", they get a small hole put in them. If the brain, spine and big leg bones are intact, they may continue their activity until enough blood leaks out and they lose consciousness. A lot of bad stuff can happen in those seconds. Pepper spray is quicker. Having said all that: I can lawfully pack anytime, anywhere in my state and I can't remember the last time I carried off duty. They wear holes in your clothes. Don't take the sarcastic responses too hard. The question was just too easy for anyone with a sense of humor to pass up, like shooting fish in a barrel. I wish I had written this under a pseudonym so I could have some fun with it. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sailboat Restorations, Inc." <sailboatrestorations_at_worldnet.att.net> To: "MSN/RiDem" <RiDem_at_email.msn.com>; <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 10:41 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Guns? When and Where? I just wanted some practical thoughts about what/when/where to carry. To those who offered it, thank you > very much. > > Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> -----Original Message----- > From: NormanS [mailto:normans_at_escape.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 1:28 PM > I find it useful, giving me an extra air of confidence when I make my > South Bronx putins. Hmmmm.....Ralph has always led us to believe that simply wearing a River Shorty strapped to your PFD was enough to quell any would-be muggers, thieves, or other generally nefarious types that might want to hassle a kayaker. Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Anybody ever fire a 12 gauge shotgun from their kayak? Forward? Off the beam? Aft? What about the .44 mag? -- David *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Well...if you are still trying to figure out which end of the blade is "up", AND a 1800 lb male walrus has taken exception to your existence, AND your 12 gauge is on deck, AND if the firing mechanism isn't corroded by all that salt-water spray, you have first-rights to naming the type of "roll" you accomplish. <G> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David J. Russell" <djr_at_mcn.org> To: <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 6:34 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Guns? When and Where? > Anybody ever fire a 12 gauge shotgun from their kayak? Forward? Off the > beam? Aft? What about the .44 mag? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi David et al! At 03:34 PM 04/18/2000 -0700, David J. Russell wrote: >Anybody ever fire a 12 gauge shotgun from their kayak? Forward? Off the >beam? Aft? What about the .44 mag? Well, I paddle a canoe, not a 'yak, but I sure wouldn't want to try and hold onto the 44 while sitting in my boat. I really need a firm grip with both hands to control the recoil, especially if I hope to get off a second shot. Guess if I had to do it, I'd want the force of the recoil aligned with the boat. A shot off the beam would almost certainly result in a swim. I haven't fired a shotgun in a long time, but I recall the recoil being more of a shove than a violent kick. Still, I don't think I'd want to try it sitting down. On a different but related subject, what types of loads do those of you who DO carry a firearm use? My 44 mag is loaded with the Glaser Safety Slugs. I don't know if you can even get them anymore. The projectile is a plastic tipped hollow brass bullet filled with small lead shot. The idea is to transfer nearly all of the projectiles energy immediately upon impact with very little penetration. According to the hype, they are supposed to be "stoppers" when used against two-legged animals, but against an angry bear, who knows? Sure hope I never have an opportunity to find out . . . ByeBye! S. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
An alternate idea, plus some anecdotes and practical advice: Claymore mines encircling your campsite at a distance of 10 metres spaced every 2.5 metres, alternately set with tripwires and livewires, are preferable to guns. In this way you afford protection from simultaneous assualt from all quarters -- after all, what if a moose attacks from one side while a bear approaches from the other? I have encountered bears 3 times in the wilderness, twice while armed. Here are the results: 1. While I was deer hunting, large brown mama bear runs across the trail diagonally in front of me and into a clump of trees about 50 metres away. The noise from the critter stopped at that point so I suspect she stopped to check me out. Being the brave hunter I attempted to move the safety on my .308 Win to free and found that my hands were so frozen I couldn't manage to move it. I just kept walking. 2. While entering a clearing while hiking in the forest an upright "cinnamon" bear (grizzly in red/orange fur) entered from the other side. Both departed the way we came. 3. While tent camping on a bicycle trip in Montana, a grizzly came into my campsite at night. Looking out of my tiny tent it looked approximately 100 feet tall against the full moon. No estimate on the real height. The bear became interested in me. Having no pots or pans to bang on, and my whistle being in my bike pack on the opposite side of the critter, I clutched onto a .22 LR pistol my brother loaned me for the trip, ostensibly for bad dogs. Sorry, dog lovers. A .22 affording no protection whatsoever from a grizzly, my plan was to begin shouting and making noise with the popgun if the thing decided to eat me. It sniffed all around my tent and suddenly my biggest fear was that it would pi$$ on my tent. After enjoying a good laugh at me, I'm sure, the bear decided to move on. Moral of the stories ... bear with me folks, bearing a gun can be unbearable when you're barely able to bring it to bear, or you're bare in a tent afraid of the bear. jerry. At 08:17 AM 04/18/2000 +0000, Sailboat Restorations, Inc. wrote: >I hope this isn't like opening a can of worms. If it is, just everyone >please ignore it and I'll get the idea. Please, no flames. I've heard all >the arguments, and I agree with all of them already <g>. > >I was wondering how many people like to carry a gun on trips in wilderness >areas. I'm thinking of doing some solo paddling in Northern Maine this year >(lakes and rivers). I've read several accounts by people who were glad they >had a shotgun with them (moose, bears, etc). The last thing on earth I want >is to ever have to kill a wild animal (my Mother tells me I cried as a child >when the neighborhood brats killed a squirrel). But I do know how to use >firearms. > >Also, if you do carry a gun, what do you carry? And where? There isn't a >whole lot of room in the cockpit of my boat (CD Caribou). I was thinking of >having a bag made to carry it on the foredeck, but that could send the wrong >"message" to humans I might encounter. . . . > >Thoughts, opinions, anecdotes. . . ? > >Thanks, > >Mark L > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Since I mentioned that there were a number of responses off PW, I have been asked to provide a summary of what I learned etc. I'll give it another day, to allow additional responses (if any), and then I'll post a summary. To those who have, or may wish to, respond privately, I assure you I will not violate your privacy in any way. I agree with the notion that we ought to be able to discuss things openly, and in a friendly way (despite passionate disagreement). But I also very much understand the desire of some people just to avoid the controversy. So . . . anyone who wants to offer their thoughts on "the gun question" can, if they choose, send me a private note. I'll try to give a fair analysis to the group of what was said, without using any names. Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
" > areas. I'm thinking of doing some solo paddling in Northern Maine this year > (lakes and rivers). I've read several accounts by people who were glad they > had a shotgun with them (moose, bears, etc). The last thing on earth I want > is to ever have to kill a wild animal (my Mother tells me I cried as a child > when the neighborhood brats killed a squirrel). But I do know how to use > firearms. Mark, I suggest that if you're going to shoot at a moose or bear, that you file the front sight off the end of whatever weapon you choose. If you don't kill them or scare them off, but piss them off, the beast is going to ram it up your......and it goes in easier without the front sight. Seriously, isn't it a better idea to rig some kind of bell or gong to warn them of your presence when coming around blind curves in a river? Yeah, I know, disturbs the solitude. But I can't see any situation where you'd surpise an animal, have it charge you in self defence or fear, and be able to get a gun out quickly enough to be effective. Then, there's the two legged kind of animal to be worried about....remember Deliverance? -Nick (no slight to Maineiacs) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Depends on where you''re putting in..Out there in Alaska you only have bears to deal with, not New York crazies. I mostly think that the knife and the gun aren't too much. Even if you're not prepared to use them, they give the right impression. Joan > > Hmmmm.....Ralph has always led us to believe that simply wearing a > River > Shorty strapped to your PFD was enough to quell any would-be > muggers, > thieves, or other generally nefarious types that might want to > hassle a > kayaker. > > Dave Seng > Juneau, Alaska > > ************************************************************************* ** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author > and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > ************************************************************************* ** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In accessing the very deep, dark recesses of my personal memory banks I seem to recall a quick story, and I think a picture of Ed Gillet huddled behind his kayak somewhere in South America, clutching a handgun, in preparation to defend himself against bandits. Unfortunately I don't remember the details or even where I saw the story. However, I can see where having a gun in such a situation might not be such a bad thing. I doubt you'd even have to fire a shot. Just knowing that you were armed could potentially drive off thieves looking for an easy mark. I have not carried a firearm in my kayak -- yet. I do usually carry one when camping. I keep it concealed, and most people never even know I have it with me. The wildlife doesn't scare me. People do. I have a ranger buddy who explains to me how a large percentage of people in the outdoors are carrying guns and alcohol. What a mix! I have never been in a situation where I felt that I needed to retrieve my pistol, and with any luck at all I never will. But I do like to be prepared. I think it's funny how the people on this list are so prone to extreme overkill when it comes to kayaking safety equipment and such, but then eagerly jump on what they see as the "politically correct" bandwagon and actually ridicule anyone who feels a need for self defense. I see a firearm in the wilderness as one of those situations where I would rather have it and not ever need it, then need it and not have it. And for what it's worth, I carry a 6" stainless Ruger 357. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Bear bells" stink. They don't work. They're sold to tourists. Look at all the "locals" in bear areas. They don't wear bells. My brother was a tour boat cap'n in Glacier National Park (MT, USA) for 3 years. Every summer, they'd take naturalist training to better handle the needs of 2-legged park visitors and 4-legged park residents. He was told that bear bells are not a good enough warning for bears. I realize that bears have better hearing than we humans do, but I've noticed when I'm out hiking that I can hear bear bells on other people at a whopping 60- or 70-foot distance. Even if bears can hear them at double that distance, that's too close for my tastes. The pro naturalists recommended talking loudly while hiking, shouting when you reach blind corners in the trail, or near rivers and streams. Water features really drown sounds out--nature's "white noise generators". Nick's gong idea wouldn't be bad either; a metal spoon tied to your pack next to a Sierra cup will make a lower frequency ring than the bear bell, and will carry a lot farther. I've never seen a griz on the trail. Not sure if I ever want to. Even with talking loudly and shouting, we've surprised a few black bears. Once near a river, once when it was very windy and we were downwind from the bruin. It was neat seeing them at less than 200 feet, but that's way too close for me to want to see a grizzly. I always carry pepper spray in bear areas. I own a few guns; I respect guns, and occasionally use them for hunting. I probably won't ever carry them on the trail or in the boat, though. I'm not necessarily pro-guns or anti-guns in wild areas, it's simply that the inconvenience (weight, avoiding dampness) outweighs my perceived risk. My $0.02 Shawn Nick wrote: > Seriously, isn't it a better idea to rig some kind of bell or gong to warn them > of your presence when coming around blind curves in a river? Yeah, I know, > disturbs the solitude. -- Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 2000 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 4/19/00 10:33:32 AM, KiAyker_at_aol.com writes: >I carry a 6" stainless Ruger 357. gotta love those model 66's! Scott Armed, not far enough north of Elian..... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I paddle mostly in the Everglades and firearms are not allowed anywhere in the park. No threats of giant bears or other dangerous animals have made me even think of owning a gun for the purpose of protection against them. It helps that there are no bears in the park and that the racoons are just annoying but harmless. However, many times I have had to share a site with a group of drunk, loud ornery fishermen and have been a bit afraid of one of them getting a bit too close to my tent site. So...I now carry a 12 gauge flare pistol with me on board the kayak and take it into the tent at night if I feel uncomfortable with the "crowd" at the camp site. I think a flare gun would sufficiently scare someone away and it is perfectly legal to carry as part of your safety gear. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In my post the other day regarding selling my rifle to buy a kayak, I was not intending to sound like I was "jumping onto the anti-hunting bandwagon of political correctness", nor was anyone else if I remember correctly from other posts. I, for one, was simply relating a personal decision made a number of years ago that proved beneficial to me. Hunting is certainly _not_ politically incorrect in the Province of BC, though trophy hunting gets a fair bit of negatory attention. Also, just a reminder to you gun-wielding americanos: don't come to Canada or travel through Canadian waters packing "heat", or the "man" will get you. You will loose your concealed, undeclared weapon and face stiff penalties. Also, the situation with wolves in the examples I gave were highly unusual. In both the case of my friend who was chased by wolves, and the example of an injured mariner facing possible problems (which has been documented), I was not crying wolf. As far as bear spray, I have a cop friend who teaches personal safety awarness courses and self defense courses. His hard core students are quickly able to overcome the subduing effects of pepper spray (he teaches fellow police oficers the same technique). Nothing is infallible in terms of full-proof self defense, be it from bear or human, other than not going outside in the first place (wilderness or otherwise). Some of us hold on to life too dearly and tightly. So live a little - or is that die a little? Anyway, get out there and enjoy nature while you still can. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
MSN/RiDem wrote: > > I carry a 30.06 on multi-week canoe trips on the Barrenground in > Canada...for grizzly. A very thoughtful, practical answer, Rich. I'm curious, though. Will a 30.06 stop a grizzly quickly? What sort of shot do you need? A head shot? -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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