There was an article in SK's April issue on dry suits which has me intrigued since I'll be looking at replacing my wetsuit either this season, or come next fall. I've never really liked a wetsuit, but until now never considered a dry suit because of their cost. However, I may just bite the bullet and go for one. I solicit all and any comments from those of you who have tried both options. A couple of specific questions: 1. What's the life expectancy (percentage-wise) with normal useage of wetsuit vs. drysuit, if any? I'm assuming that Gore-tex fabric wouldn't break down in UV light, but does coated-nylon/cordura fabrics start to lose their integrity in "X" number of years? Can they be recoated by owner? 2. Is it cost efficient to spring the extra $100-150 for Gore-Tex or go with coated fabric? 3. Since a drysuit is not as form fitting as a wetsuit, what about snagging the suit on deck fittings during re-entry, risking a tear? How fragile and tear resistant are the fabrics on these dry suits, and can they be patched? By owner, or manufacturer? I can be a bit of a klutz and many bits of my fabric adorn dock fittings around SoCal with blood spoor trailing away... 4. Is there any such beast as a two piece dry suit? IOW, I'd love to have a dry top jacket for days and conditions when I'd not need to swim, roll, or re-enter but would love the thermal/dry protection for upper body during high braces and scull practice. In a perfect world, there would be a dry suit bottom which would zipper on to the jacket for full protection in more "iffy", challenging conditions. I know, I'm asking a lot on this one and if I have to ask, probably couldn't afford it.. 5. Finally, what about sweating? I'm picturing boiling in my own juices in an enclosed bag on a 80 degree day, but thankful I'd be in that that bag if I dump in 52 degree waters a'ways out. The author of the article in SK (Kevein Whilden) pays lip service to George Gronseth's advice on how to stay cool on a warm day in a dry suit (bracing, sculliing, and rolling) but that doesn't seem to do much for the inner man/woman enclosed in a shake-and-bake bag. Comments appreciated, and TIA -Nick. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Nick, >2. Is it cost efficient to spring the extra $100-150 for Gore-Tex or go with coated fabric? In my opinion, your question #5 answers question #2. In warm/hot weather you'll bake in a coated dry suit. Is a breathable fabric worth the extra $? I'd say yes if you intend to use it often. >4. Is there any such beast as a two piece dry suit? Yes. And I've found them to be less expensive than the one piece suit. I think you'll get many different opinions on whether or not they're truly "dry" in submerged conditions. Wearing a dry top and having a tight spray deck (at chest and coming) is (FAI&P) just as good as a full-size dry-suit. (This assumes you stay in the boat). >5. Finally, what about sweating? I'm picturing boiling in my own juices in an enclosed bag on a 80 degree day. In a coated dry suit in 80 degrees... you'll sweat often and freely unless you roll, brace or scull like mad. In weather >60 degrees (water 45-55 degrees) wearing a breathable dry suit, I roll every 10-15 minutes to keep cool unless conditions keep me really wet. My opinions only. Spencer A. Smith HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Von Robison wrote: > > There was an article in SK's April issue on dry suits which has me > intrigued since I'll be looking at replacing my wetsuit either this > season, or come next fall. I've never really liked a wetsuit, but until > > now never considered a dry suit because of their cost. However, I may > just bite the bullet and go for one. I solicit all and any comments > from those of you who have tried both options. A couple of specific > questions: > > 1. What's the life expectancy (percentage-wise) with normal useage of > wetsuit vs. drysuit, if any? I'm assuming that Gore-tex fabric wouldn't > > break down in UV light, but does coated-nylon/cordura fabrics start to > lose their integrity in "X" number of years? Can they be recoated by > owner? The material is quite thick and the coatings very thick. I can't really say what the life is, but certainly more than a dozen years conservatively speaking. Gaskets go no matter how you use them, store them or take care of them. Not better than 3 years on those...i.e. don't count on much more. Again, the coatings are incredibly well done and not easy to delaminate or wear off. > 2. Is it cost efficient to spring the extra $100-150 for Gore-Tex or go > > with coated fabric? The extra I think is more like $200 for comparable suits. I generally have not been a big proponent of the Goretex but mainly because I don't have one :-) Spring for the extra and you get more dryness but do be aware that while inside your boat and sprayskirt not much breathing will occur for your torso and legs, just the arms a bit. But once out of the cocoon of your boat and skirt, you will start drying off a bit underneath. In a coated suit, everything underneath gets soaking wet. But you don't get chilled because of the absolute windproofness of the coatings. You reach a relative happy humidity underneath. You will only sense coldness when you strip off the suit and will have to get out of your bunny suit or whatever insulation you are wearing. > > 3. Since a drysuit is not as form fitting as a wetsuit, what about > snagging the suit on deck fittings during re-entry, risking a tear? How > > fragile and tear resistant are the fabrics on these dry suits, and can > they be patched? By owner, or manufacturer? I can be a bit of a klutz > and many bits of my fabric adorn dock fittings around SoCal with blood > spoor trailing away... I suppose you can tear one. But I have never seen this happen. I have however turn coated paddling gear such as paddle pants (on a dock nail) and it was the thickest type of coated pants. So conceivably it could happen for coated material or Goretex. That is why if you are worried about it, you might opt to wear one of those watersports polartec suits underneath. Jack Martin, who frequents this list, advises this and it it good advice. > > 4. Is there any such beast as a two piece dry suit? IOW, I'd love to > have a dry top jacket for days and conditions when I'd not need to swim, You will get divided opinions on the two piece versions. They basically dont work that well and take a lot of care in how you seal the two together. > > ro > 5. Finally, what about sweating? I'm picturing boiling in my own > juices in an enclosed bag on a 80 degree day, but thankful I'd be in > that that bag if I dump in 52 degree waters a'ways out. The author of > the article in SK (Kevein Whilden) pays lip service to George Gronseth's > > advice on how to stay cool on a warm day in a dry suit (bracing, > sculliing, and rolling) but that doesn't seem to do much for the inner > man/woman enclosed in a shake-and-bake bag. You will sweat as mentioned above, somewhat more in the coated than in the Goretex. The author also gave some advice that I challenged in a letter to the editor which was printed along with the accident that happened to one fellow who left his suit relief zip open by accident. And the author responded Basically I found fault with the advice of paddling with the suit partly rolled down to the waist if paddling in calm conditions and the expectation that you could just get it all back on if conditions suddenly got dicey. I also questioned the advice about using a neck ring to keep the neck gasket open for airing out if on calm waters. He said in his response "but I stand by my suggestion of rolling down a dry suit as an option, because skilled paddlers can make the judgment of VIRTUALLY GUARANTEEING THAT A CAPSIZE WILL NOT OCCUR IN CALM CONDITIONS. (Caps are mine for emphasis) I sure would like to paddle with that kind of expert who can make such a wonderful guarantee! :-) -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Rob, I just "bit the bullet" and ordered a drysuit from Kokatat in GoreTex. The people I paddle with swear by the GTX front entry suits from Kokotat. This is a large and sometimes burley group. If the garment stands up to their abuse, it must be good. 1. What's the life expectancy - Some of the people I know have suits that are 7+ years old. Cheap insurance at $100 per year. UV must still be a problem, as it is with anything, less is best. 2. Is it cost efficient to spring the extra $100-150 for Gore-Tex. - The "hot blooded" among the group say yes. The calmer and most efficient paddlers say that the coated stuff is fine. 3. Since a drysuit is not as form fitting as a wetsuit, what about snagging the suit on deck fittings during reentry, risking a tear? - Certainly possible, but rare in actual usage. Anything can be patched, though it may not be as pretty or functionally equivalent to the original material. Then again, it only a small patch, right? Yet another good argument for a consistent roll. 4. Is there any such beast as a two piece dry suit? - Yes, though reportedly not as waterproof as a one piece suit. Some people swear by the versatility of the two piece system. I went for the one piece, but I already have a drytop and will buy dry pants for emergency back-up or the warmer water temps. Some people have told me about two piece systems that are very workable. They report some wetness but not enough to bother them and this only if they swam a lot. 5. Finally, what about sweating? - This is my biggest concern. Great argument for perfecting that roll and sculling technique. Also I truly believe that a very efficient paddle stroke would minimize any overheating. Please take all of this with a mouthful of salt water, I have done a bunch of research, but have no personal experience with the drysuits yet. Certainly some of our more seasoned cold water paddlers will chime in to clarify any inaccurate information. Best of luck! Jed *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 26 Apr 2000 LedJube_at_aol.com wrote: > 5. Finally, what about sweating? - This is my biggest concern. Great > argument for perfecting that roll and sculling technique. Also I truly > believe that a very efficient paddle stroke would minimize any overheating. I sweat like mad in my coated drysuit (I'm rarely a leisurely paddler). I regret not having bought the goretex. kirk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick asked about drysuits. I've owned two of them, and two different drytops. These are my prejudices RE: drysuits based on that limited experience: If you want to paddle in the late fall, early spring, or winter, I think a drysuit is absolutely worth the money. They*are* expensive, but they're way less costly than a funeral. In my case, having a good drysuit has expanded my paddling "season" to 10 or 12 months out of the year, and has done wonders for my comfort while paddling. Others find that coated, nonbreathable dryuits are okay. I don't. In non-breathable suits, once I get to paddling even moderately hard I generate enough body heat so that I'm uncomfortably hot except on the coldest days. It's not just a comfort matter with me; it really decreases my ability to perform significantly. Therefore - for me, Goretex is the only way to go. I've owned Kokatat products, and although I haven't bushwhacked through the brambles in them, I've used them fairly hard in normal kayaking and camping use, and have never had a puncture or tear. I have had a gasket split after two years' use, but it's easy to replace gaskets. My Kokatat Goretex drysuit is now in its 5th season or so, and it's in perfect shape. (Its shape being way better than my own!) My experience with a two-piece suit has been that it's perfectly fine for light use if you don't mind getting a little damp. But the two piece suits I've used have not kept out **all** the water if I'm practicing rolling or rescues. BTW - once the water gets to that 52 degrees mark Nick mentioned, I often switch ot a wetsuit and polys. I guess everyone knows that drysuits must be worn over appropriate layers of polys; they offer very little insulation all by themselves. My biggest problems with this come in the spring and fall, when the water temp may be 36-46 degrees and the air temp maybe in to 60s or 70s. Using the rule of "always dress for the water temp" I have to be really careful not to get overheated. Bill Hansen Ithaca NY *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks to all who have responded with advice on drysuits. It is VERY much appreciated as this is a fairly major expenditure. I think I'll bite the bullet and go straight for the GoreTex one piece, probably the Kokatat since it has been so highly recommended. Hey it's only money right?! For one thing, my body temp runs a degree or two above normal and visions of pints of sweat sloshing around inside a nylon body bag grosses even me out, even if its my own perspiration. Second, even $250 or so for a nylon dry suit is nothing to sneeze at, especially if I really don't like it, and would decide to upgade to GTX later and have the nylon hanging in the garage, unused. Third, Bill Hansens comment on "dressing for the water temperature" applies very much to my locale as even in winter here in SoCal we can have 60-80 degree days, but cold ocean water. What finally clinched it was the comment that "$700 is a lot cheaper than a funeral" and the comment from my SO: "yeah, and I'd have to pay for the funeral along with making the arrangements". It's a done deal. Thanks. -Nick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
OK. Don't have much time but I'll bite. Nick Von Robison wrote: > > I solicit all and any comments from those of you who have tried both options. I haven't lived in neoprene since my H2O Ski days ended a decade ago, so for what it's worth... > 1. What's the life expectancy (percentage-wise) with normal useage of > wetsuit vs. drysuit, if any? I'm assuming that Gore-tex fabric wouldn't > break down in UV light, but does coated-nylon/cordura fabrics start to > lose their integrity in "X" number of years? Can they be recoated by > owner? My Gore-Tex Kokatat is 8 years old with no patches, no noticeable changes due to UV (except fading). It gets washed anywhere from after each trip to once a season. - when it gets to smellin' worse than the three litter boxes nearby 8-{ It is stored cool and hung out of sunlight, zippers open as per Kokatat (used to be zippers shut). > 2. Is it cost efficient to spring the extra $100-150 for Gore-Tex or go > with coated fabric? I have the Gore-Tex while paddle partner in crime wears the cheaper coated fabric. We're both equally capable and efficient paddlers and have similar regards of what constitutes hot and cold. By the time I break a sweat he's sweating profusely. The difference is minimized if the salt hasn't been washed out of the Gore-Tex, though. My own experience has shown the Gore, left unwashed for 3 days, will out perform the coated. > 3. Since a drysuit is not as form fitting as a wetsuit, what about > snagging the suit on deck fittings during re-entry, risking a tear? How > fragile and tear resistant are the fabrics on these dry suits, and can > they be patched? By owner, or manufacturer? I can be a bit of a klutz > and many bits of my fabric adorn dock fittings around SoCal with blood > spoor trailing away... Well, unlike some on our list, I have lived in my drysuit for days on end (matter of speaking), have bushwhacked through some brush looking for a place to answer nature's call (and then for a way back on some other route than through the poison ivy), and even used it to wash a moored powerboat with - wedged between the hull and rocky bottom for a minute or two on end 's hard scrubbing (all afternoon). Hasn't torn yet. (Guess I should be thankful, huh) > 5. Finally, what about sweating? I'm picturing boiling in my own > juices in an enclosed bag on a 80 degree day, but thankful I'd be in > that that bag if I dump in 52 degree waters a'ways out. Above 70 degrees air temp. & sunny while distance paddling w/o wind is my breaking point. So is 65 degree water temp. - It'll no longer feel cool enough when roto-cooling. The comfort level ends for me anywhere from 55~60 degrees air temp. I've already traded the drysuit in for my paddle jacket/pile & neoprene combo. 53 degree water temp. and air temps from the upper 40s to upper 60s. Actually, the drysuit has been retired for the season due to 2 blown gaskets + one more that needs re-replacing. Gotta run(!), Vince *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The Kokatat goretex drysuit with relief zip and cordura reinforcement I got this past winter is absolutely super. I still get soaked after paddling for a few hours but there isn't buckets of water in my pant legs like with my old coated suit. The extra safety is well worth it since I have a family now but am not about to stop paddling year-round. My only complaint is the collar sometimes chafes my neck. I want to have booties put on my suit this summer. I've wondered if I would have a problem with water collecting around my feet, making them uncomfortable. Any experience out there? Tom York, Maine *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't think you'll regret it. I didn't get around to replying, but I've never regretted getting the Goretex one-piece. It's not usually really uncomfortable - though you do have to get used to having the neck gasket try to kill you. We keep 5 gallon jugs in the gasket between wearings, to stretch them out. It works. Joan On Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:19:06 -0700 Nick Von Robison <n.v.rob_at_deltanet.com> writes: > Thanks to all who have responded with advice on drysuits. It is VERY > much > appreciated as this is a fairly major expenditure. > > I think I'll bite the bullet and go straight for the GoreTex one > piece, probably > the Kokatat since it has been so highly recommended. Hey it's only > money > right?! For one thing, my body temp runs a degree or two above > normal and > visions of pints of sweat sloshing around inside a nylon body bag > grosses even me > out, even if its my own perspiration. Second, even $250 or so for a > nylon dry > suit is nothing to sneeze at, especially if I really don't like it, > and would > decide to upgade to GTX later and have the nylon hanging in the > garage, unused. > Third, Bill Hansens comment on "dressing for the water temperature" > applies very > much to my locale as even in winter here in SoCal we can have 60-80 > degree days, > but cold ocean water. What finally clinched it was the comment that > "$700 is a > lot cheaper than a funeral" and the comment from my SO: "yeah, and > I'd have to > pay for the funeral along with making the arrangements". It's a > done deal. > Thanks. > > -Nick > > > > ************************************************************************* ** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author > and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > ************************************************************************* ** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Booties are good. They keep your feet warm and dry, and you don't have to get your feet through latex ankle gaskets. I have latex booties, but I understand that they now make them incordura, which would be more durable. I did have to get paddling shoes a size larger to get over the latex booties with polartec socks underneath. Joan . I've wondered if I would have a problem with water > collecting > around my feet, making them uncomfortable. Any experience out there? > > Tom > York, Maine > > ************************************************************************* ** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author > and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > ************************************************************************* ** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've got the Stolquist goretex drysuit with latex booties. I found my socks got a little damp but with the fleece socks and neoprene booties were warm and never a problem. Nice also that you don't have to fiddle with taking off the latex around your ankles. Love the gortex suit as it kept me warm even while setting up camp. If I was wearing a wetsuit, I'd be chilled in minutes. I'll probably try and extend wearing the suit as much as possible since it's oh, so comfortable -- no neoprene itch either :o) ----Original Message Follows---- From: "tompage" <tompage_at_sarahleonard.com> To: <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Dry Suit Questions? Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 21:55:55 -0400 The Kokatat goretex drysuit with relief zip and cordura reinforcement I got this past winter is absolutely super. I still get soaked after paddling for a few hours but there isn't buckets of water in my pant legs like with my old coated suit. The extra safety is well worth it since I have a family now but am not about to stop paddling year-round. My only complaint is the collar sometimes chafes my neck. I want to have booties put on my suit this summer. I've wondered if I would have a problem with water collecting around my feet, making them uncomfortable. Any experience out there? Tom York, Maine *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
RE: Booties and drysuits - I don't have booties, only latex cuffs. I've read on this list that it's easier to put the suit on and to take it off if one has booties. But after the first several times, putting the suit on and taking off aren't that difficult anyway. I'd worry that the booties, even if worn under neoprene socks or light neoprene boots, would easily be damaged, and would leak. Worse yet, with my sweaty feet, integrated booties would soon fill with sweat, and after just a few wearings, they'd need some of Bob Denton's good "Sink the Stink". Bill Hansen Ithaca NY *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>RE: Booties and drysuits - I don't have booties, only latex cuffs. I've read >on this list that it's easier to put the suit on and to take it off if one >has booties. But after the first several times, putting the suit on and >taking off aren't that difficult anyway. I'd worry that the booties, even if >worn under neoprene socks or light neoprene boots, would easily be damaged, >and would leak. Get the booties. After the first several times of putting on the gaskets, only one time with the booties will convince you that you did the right thing. ANd the difference in warmth and comfort is tremendous. No, they won't tear under the usual circumstances either. If they do, they are far easier to fix with a bicycle patch kit than the gaskets ever will be. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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