I read with interest the exchange on dry suits on PW and read Ralph Diaz's well stated letter in Sea Kayaker on the safety issues. I thought that I would purchase a Kokotat TecTour jacket to go with some Kokotat bibs I got on sale while on a business trip to Chicago. Not having used this type of system before I checked out Kokotat's web site to get their instructions on using their system and found their reference to a "neo deck skirt" confusing: From Kokotat web site: "Folding The Bib & Top · Put on the bib, then the top. · Then pull the outer skirt of the top up. · Line up the inner skirt with the skirt on the bib. · Cinch down, fold like a dry bag upwards. · Then put your neo deck skirt on. · Ppull the outer skirt back down over it all. · Put on your PFD and you'll be dry! " Next I called Kokotat Customer Service (very good by the way) and asked for further explanation. Their answer paraphrased: "If you don't use a neoprene tunneled spray skirt over the folds and you wet exit and re-enter you will find that all of the twisting and movement will cause the top and bib connection to come un-done and you may get some water in." My comment: This isn't a safe bet without the "neo deck skirt" and could come undone during paddling." I suggested that maybe they need to provide a "neo band secured with Velcro" to go over the folds to secure it for folks with nylon tunnel skirts. "The fellow from Kokotat said that was a judgment call on my part and that a neo band would work, but probably isn't going to happen and suggested buying a dry suit." Due to the cost (30% of a new boat) I think I will pass. The type of paddling I do doesn't require a dry suit and I thought that should the opportunity present itself to paddle in the Pacific Northwest the Top/Bib combo would be useable over a greater range of paddling conditions here and other places. I think I will stick with my current farmer john and paddling top for the time being. I don't think it wise to have "FALSE" confidence in a system that isn't going to be as secure as one might think. In this case a dry suit properly worn is a far better choice if you can afford it and wearing neoprene actually much safer than the top/bib combo though less comfortable. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
There is a company that makes neoprene belts, about 8 inches wide, secured by velcro. It is called a Solar belt. I bought one years ago at Wal Mart in their weight and exercise area. It is only 1 or 2 MM neoprene, but it should work for your application. Mike "Fred T, CA Kayaker" wrote: > I read with interest the exchange on dry suits on PW and read Ralph Diaz's > well stated letter in Sea Kayaker on the safety issues. > > I thought that I would purchase a Kokotat TecTour jacket to go with some > Kokotat bibs I got on sale while on a business trip to Chicago. Not > having used this type of system before I checked out Kokotat's web site to > get their instructions on using their system and found their reference to a > "neo deck skirt" confusing: > > Snipped for brevity. > > > My comment: This isn't a safe bet without the "neo deck skirt" and could > come undone during paddling." I suggested that maybe they need to provide > a "neo band secured with Velcro" to go over the folds to secure it for > folks with nylon tunnel skirts. "The fellow from Kokotat said that was a > judgment call on my part and that a neo band would work, but probably isn't > going to happen and suggested buying a dry suit." > -- Paddling along through fog so thick that only one's thoughts are visible, your reverie is abruptly shattered by the ancient cry of a great blue heron as she lifts uncertainly from the brilliant blue of a mussel-shell beach witnessed only by the brooding, wet spruce....your passage home seems as much back through time as it does through space. Mark H Hunt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
That belt is meant for inducing sweating when exercising and supposedly helping reduce your tummy size. I too often thought that one would work well as an ad hoc closure for the bottom of a paddle jacket. It is quite wide as you indicate, very grippy, and might do the job. However you will not achieve a dry suit in the combination you are thinking of. So if you go that way, you should have a wet suit underneath. The waterproof clothing over it will reduce the amount of water getting near you. A watersports polartec suit (or neoprene) under a jacket and bib pants with a belt would be pretty decent in terms of coverage...not perfect but certainly a lot better than just a paddle jacket, pants and just some outdoor insulation clothing underneath. On another note, I believe the TecTour top does not have a latex gasket at the neck, just the wrists. I am working from memory, so I could be mistaken on this. If that is the case, you will take on water at the neck. Some of those tops with the word "tour" in them don't close up too well at the neck lacking even neoprene or darlexx up there. So check that too. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Ralph and All, > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of ralph diaz > Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 2:44 PM > To: mnoyes_at_gsinet.net > Cc: Fred T, CA Kayaker; Paddlewise; kokatat_at_kokatat.com > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Dry Tops and Bibs vs Dry Suits: Kokotat > > > That belt is meant for inducing sweating when exercising and supposedly > helping reduce your tummy size. I too often thought that one would work > well as an ad hoc closure for the bottom of a paddle jacket. It is > quite wide as you indicate, very grippy, and might do the job. > > However you will not achieve a dry suit in the combination you are > thinking of. So if you go that way, you should have a wet suit > underneath. The waterproof clothing over it will reduce the amount of > water getting near you. A watersports polartec suit (or neoprene) under > a jacket and bib pants with a belt would be pretty decent in terms of > coverage...not perfect but certainly a lot better than just a paddle > jacket, pants and just some outdoor insulation clothing underneath. I dissagree. I don't think you will find that you need a wetsuit under this combination. Ralph have you tried the bibs and dry-top or tec- tour combo? > > On another note, I believe the TecTour top does not have a latex gasket > at the neck, just the wrists. I am working from memory, so I could be > mistaken on this. If that is the case, you will take on water at the > neck. Some of those tops with the word "tour" in them don't close up > too well at the neck lacking even neoprene or darlexx up there. So > check that too. > > ********* You are correct, the tec-tour has latex at the wrists but not at the neck. During a roll with this type of closure I find I get maybe a cup or two of water in at most. Definately not enough to make safety an issue. If you are swimming and not rolling the neck closure keeps almost all of the water out assuming you are wearing a pfd. Either way intrusion at the neck is minimal. Have you found that you are getting in more water than this using this combination? Cheers, Rob Cookson "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Fred, Craig, and All, > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Fred T, CA > Kayaker > > I thought that I would purchase a Kokotat TecTour jacket to go with some > Kokotat bibs I got on sale while on a business trip to Chicago. Not > having used this type of system before I checked out Kokotat's > web site to > get their instructions on using their system and found their > reference to a > "neo deck skirt" confusing: <SNIP> > "If you don't use a neoprene tunneled spray skirt over the folds and you > wet exit and re-enter you will find that all of the twisting and movement > will cause the top and bib connection to come un-done and you may > get some > water in." When I first heard of the bib/drytop combination I was very skeptical so I got a bib and started experimenting. I have owned the bibs (goretex)for several years and have used them in combination with a drytop and, since it came out, also with a tec-tour depending on what type of paddling I'm doing. Here is what I have experienced with the combos. When I first got the bibs I swam in them every chance I got, in rivers, in surf, in flat water. I would do this at the end of the day of boating just to see how dry they were. How well this system works is dependant on how fussy you are when you fold the two pieces of clothing together. I have found that the sequence that works for me is: 1. First burp the suit 2. Fold not roll the tunnels together. 3. Put on skirt (covering folds if tunnel is deep enough, not all are) 4. Carefully pull the outer tunnel down. It is important not to disturb the folds as you pull the tunnel down in the rear. 5. Cinch the neoprene closure on the outer tunnel 6. Burp the suit again 7. Put on pfd and cinch for a nice snug fit. What I have found is that wearing a neo skirt and pfd I can usually swim and move around quite a bit and get no water in the suit at all. This is with a drytop not the tec tour. If I'm in the water a long time doing lots of rescue demos- assisted, paddlefloat, re-enter and roll, etc., sometimes I will get a small amount of water in the suit. Not much, certainly not enough to be dangerous, just a minor cold trickle. Swimming wearing no skirt just the suit and a pfd resulted in just a minor amount of water, again nothing that I would consider a compromise in safety. A snug fitting pfd does a good job of keeping the folds together. Swimming with no skirt and no pfd resulted in the most intrusion of water. Again things trickled in rather than flooding bit I wouldn't want to spend hours in the water this way. Since I don't paddle without a skirt and pfd it's really not an issue for me, I simply did some experimenting to see what the results would be. Using a tec-tour and not a drytop results in some water entering at the neck of the suit. Rolling seems to let in a cup or so of water, I don't really have any way of knowing for sure how much really comes in. If the water is really cold a teaspoon feels like a quart. Once you are swimming (assuming you are weraing a pfd) the neck closure is above the water and not much can enter the suit. I had a student take surf classes with this combo and he was quite happy. Just a coincidence, last night I taught a rescue class in a local lake. I spent about 2.5 hours bracing, rolling, swimming, and re-entering the boat and didn't get a single drop of water in through my folded seal. (bibs mated with gore light-wave drytop). It's not always that way but I would say that happens, I'm guessing here, maybe 1/3 of the time. If I'm not swimming and just bracing and rolling I can't ever remember getting wet. Keep in mind that none of my experimenting was very controlled or scientific. Just a skeptical paddler out goofing around. > > My comment: This isn't a safe bet without the "neo deck skirt" and could > come undone during paddling." It does work better with a neo skirt but I would personally be comfortable with out it. <More Snippage> > I don't think it wise to have "FALSE" confidence in a system that isn't > going to be as secure as one might think. In this case a dry > suit properly > worn is a far better choice if you can afford it and wearing neoprene > actually much safer than the top/bib combo though less comfortable. Well, everyone needs to be comfortable with their choices in safety gear. I agree that a 1 piece drysuit is a more bombproof and foolproof system (if you remember to zip it) but I'm very comfortable with the two piece combo. I don't think that it is at all a false sense of security on my part as I have used this system extensively. I would suggest that any piece of gear that you are betting your life on should be tested, so don't just take my word on it. Get your bibs and tec tour on and go for a swim, you may be pleasantly surprised with the results. *****DISCLAIMER****** I don't work for Kokatat, but I do know those folks down there pretty well, I sometimes do a little product testing for them and I'm definitely biased. So take this for what it's worth, free advice over the internet. YMMV Cheers, Rob Cookson "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:14 PDT