I think I had posted here that NDK was no longer making Kevlar boats. That is incorrect. They are making them, but they are recommending their "Elite" layup over the Kevlar model for "heavy" use. It was the Elite model which I recently paddled. Robert Here are the details, quoted from NDK website: > > LAYUP OPTIONS. > Standard: The standard lay up suites centre use and will withstand a > considerable amount of abuse. The Explorer weighs in at a maximum of 60 lbs > but on average 58 lbs. This lay-up is also advised for kayakers who are going > to undertake the longer expedition. > Elite: The Elite lay-up is designed to save weight over the standard lay-up. > There is an 8 lbs saving over the standard range. Being tough enough for the > advanced paddler provided a little care is taken. The advantage of the Elite > range is the ease of repair. This lay-up bridges the gap between the Carbon > Kevlar and the standard range. We advise this lay-up for the serious kayaker > who wants a weight saving. It will outlast the Carbon Kevlar kayak. > Specification: > The Carbon Kevlar Kayak: This lay-up is designed for the kayaker who needs a > significant weight saving. There is a saving of approx 20 lbs. The kayak will > need to be looked after. The lay-up does not have any chop strand so it is not > as stiff as the Elite range. It has been designed with x-rescues in mind so it > is still a practical lay-up. The C/K kayak will not withstand abuse and is not > recommended for the serious expeditioner. The life expectancy of the lay-up is > less than the Elite. We recommend the C/K range to kayakers who need a light > kayak but they must realize that care will need to be taken when using the > kayak at all times. > If you require any further information regarding the kayak design criteria > please contact David Williams at the ASSC > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: Robert C. Cline <rccline_at_swbell.net> > I think I had posted here that NDK was no longer making Kevlar boats. That > is incorrect. They are making them, but they are recommending their "Elite" > layup over the Kevlar model for "heavy" use. It was the Elite model which I > recently paddled. > > Here are the details, quoted from NDK website: > > > > > LAYUP OPTIONS. > > Standard: The standard lay up suites centre use and will withstand a > > considerable amount of abuse. The Explorer weighs in at a maximum of 60 lbs > > but on average 58 lbs. This lay-up is also advised for kayakers who are going > > to undertake the longer expedition. My 1999 standard layup fiberglass Romany Explorer with the skeg and front deck-mounted bilge pump options weighs 76 lbs. I've seen at least one other manufacturer indicate that *their* specified weights are for a stripped down shell, weighed without hatch covers, deck fittings, options, etc. I suspect the 58 lbs. figure above (which I've also seen on the NDK spec sheet) is for the shell alone. Anyone ordering one of these boats expecting to receive a ready-to-paddle 58 lb. boat is going to be disappointed. I've been told the pump option adds about 3.5 lbs. I don't know how much the skeg option adds, but the NDK literature recommends the skeg option for crossings. Nigel his very ownself told Marie and I that he doesn't use the skeg, but, as I pointed out to him, there's a big difference between his world-class paddling skills and mine! It's probably a good idea to get the skeg. YMMV, of course. :-) Robert, do you know what the additional cost is for the carbon/kevlar version of the Explorer? Regards, Bruce *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think your synopsis is right about the boat weights. My Explorer weighs in at a lot more than any 58 lbs. But again, maybe that's not bad. On the Wales expedition, I saw NKD boats take a beating you wouldn't believe! Robert > From: "M. Lenon" <lenonm_at_milwaukee.tec.wi.us> > Reply-To: "M. Lenon" <lenonm_at_milwaukee.tec.wi.us> > Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:05:05 -0500 > To: "Robert C. Cline" <rccline_at_swbell.net>, PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] NDK layups... > > I've seen at least one other manufacturer indicate that *their* specified > weights are > for a stripped down shell, weighed without hatch covers, deck fittings, > options, etc. > I suspect the 58 lbs. figure above (which I've also seen on the NDK spec > sheet) is > for the shell alone. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: Robert C. Cline <rccline_at_swbell.net> To: <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 5:51 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] NDK layups... > I think your synopsis is right about the boat weights. My Explorer weighs > in at a lot more than any 58 lbs. But again, maybe that's not bad. On the > Wales expedition, I saw NKD boats take a beating you wouldn't believe! Yep. I *do* believe you. It's one of the reasons I purchased this boat. I always remembered the stories told by one of the fellows at Rutabaga who had visited Wales. He said they would just slam their Romanys up onto a *cobblestone* "beach" when they tired of surfing and needed to come in for a break! Amazing. I figured a boat like that would take good care of me, and last me the rest of my days. :-) Regards, Bruce *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I dropped mine on two occasions, fully loaded with a couple of days of water, food, tents etc. I had slipped on algae-covered rocks. No harm done to the boats. We lowered fully loaded boats down from the deck, sometimes boats banging onto the side of the ship... no harm done. And yes, surfing into cobblestone beaches... all Amazing punishment. This boat is a tank! Robert > From: "M. Lenon" <lenonm_at_milwaukee.tec.wi.us> > Reply-To: "M. Lenon" <lenonm_at_milwaukee.tec.wi.us> > Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:05:00 -0500 > To: "Robert C. Cline" <rccline_at_swbell.net>, PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] NDK layups... > > Yep. I *do* believe you. It's one of the reasons I purchased this boat. I > always > remembered the stories told by one of the fellows at Rutabaga who had visited > Wales. > He said they would just slam their Romanys up onto a *cobblestone* "beach" > when they > tired of surfing and needed to come in for a break! Amazing. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't know the exact additional cost for a kevlar model. I think it is close to $1000 US. I saw a slightly used kevlar Explorer with Henderson Ft pump (usually $230 extra) a compass for sale (another $95) at Sweetwater Kayaks in Fla. last year for about $2400. Sometimes these dealers get some good used boats. You might want to visit with them about the possibility of buying a used boat that comes their way. It's nice to have a new boat, but if you can knock $1000 off the sticker, that's even nicer! So, how much do you want for your cracked up Explorer? I've got a Falcon 18 I'd be willing to trade. Robert > From: "M. Lenon" <lenonm_at_milwaukee.tec.wi.us> > Reply-To: "M. Lenon" <lenonm_at_milwaukee.tec.wi.us> > Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:05:05 -0500 > To: "Robert C. Cline" <rccline_at_swbell.net>, PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] NDK layups... > > Robert, do you know what the additional cost is for the carbon/kevlar version > of the > Explorer? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: Robert C. Cline <rccline_at_swbell.net> > > So, how much do you want for your cracked up Explorer? I've got a Falcon 18 > I'd be willing to trade. > <LOL!> Yeah, that's it. "...cracked up Explorer. Listen buddy, I'll give ya $500 for it. Take it or leave it." Such a deal. :-) There's no sign of leaking --- not yet, anyway. Others have convinced me that's probably unlikely to happen. Still... >Ever thought about grinding way the gelcoat [gasp! gasp!] and adding a new >layer of gel? I've wondered if that would be a good solution. I have no experience with this sort of thing, and I've never worked with fiberglass. >Are these cracks along a seam? Do you see a difference in glass thickness >on the underside of the hull/crack? *One* of the cracks stems from (or extends into?) the seam tape. Is this significant, Robert? I thought that it might be, which is why I mentioned originally that the cracks are right below the seam. My concern is that these cracks are indicative of abnormal internal stresses, unrelated to external stresses per se (such as impact damage), and that they portend future trouble that could be expensive to repair and possibly even disastrous. I checked the hull, both inside and outside, in and around the cracked area, and I don't see anything remarkable; it all looks the same as the surrounding area save for the cracks on the outside. I haven't spoken to my dealer yet. I wanted to get some expert feedback from you folks first, and "get educated." I'm out of my element here. I don't want to go into my dealer armed only with ignorance, and I don't want to make unreasonable and unfair demands of them. But, I need to learn what I can reasonably expect to resolve this problem, and part of that, of course, is learning how serious the problem really is. The only thing I'm certain of is that these cracks should not have developed absent abuse, and resale value has been diminished --- quite possibly, significantly. Arguably, this is the biggest problem. Regards, Bruce *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Is there any chance this was caused by strapping the kayak down during transport? I don't know about seam tape or how it is secured to the seam. I understand the seam is a fill with resin and talc mixture, rather than resin and fiberglass; I missed the opportunity to see this procedure during my trip to Wales. Sure sorry I missed seeing this process. Robert > From: "M. Lenon" <lenonm_at_milwaukee.tec.wi.us> > Reply-To: "M. Lenon" <lenonm_at_milwaukee.tec.wi.us> > Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 01:21:42 -0500 > To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Cc: "Robert C. Cline" <rccline_at_swbell.net> > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] NDK layups... > > > *One* of the cracks stems from (or extends into?) the seam tape. Is this > significant, Robert? I thought that it might be, which is why I mentioned > originally that > the > cracks are right below the seam. My concern is that these cracks are > indicative of > abnormal internal stresses, unrelated to external stresses per se (such as > impact > damage), and that they portend future trouble that could be expensive to > repair and > possibly even disastrous. > > I checked the hull, both inside and outside, in and around the cracked area, > and I > don't see anything remarkable; it all looks the same as the surrounding area > save for > the cracks on the outside. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> >Ever thought about grinding way the gelcoat [gasp! gasp!] and adding a new > >layer of gel? I noticed this thread but hadn't had time to focus on it. The problem of spiderwebbing or gelcoat cracking is very common in older sailboats, and I've dealt with it a great deal. Most of the time it is at stress points, often where there is a bulkhead or joint beneath the spot. Sometimes it is from an impact of some sort. It's very very common on not usually of much real significance, other than aesthetic. > I've wondered if [replacing the gelcoat] would be a good solution. I have no experience with this sort > of thing, and I've never worked with fiberglass. Replacing gelcoat is not really a great solution, IMO. Gelcoat is usually applied inside a mold with the glass applied over it. Doing it after the fact, so to speak, is not the same thing. It requires quite a lot of work, buffing etc. The more typical (and more practical) solution is simply to re-"paint" the surface. I use the word paint in quotes because what I prefer to use is not technically considered a paint. What I refer to is the two-part poly coatings. These are sold in marine supply stores -- I often use Interlux Interthane Plus. They are also common among airplane types. I usually use a 2 part epoxy primer first. Sometimes the primer alone will be enough to fill the cracks; sometimes you need to mix up an epoxy putting and cover them. The process is somewhat painstaking, but not particularly difficult, really. Use good masks at all times, especially when working with the 2 part poly. > >Are these cracks along a seam? Do you see a difference in glass thickness > >on the underside of the hull/crack? > > *One* of the cracks stems from (or extends into?) the seam tape. Is this significant, It probably is some indication of the source of the stress. Is it near a bulkhead? I would definitely reinforce the seam where the cracking is with a reasonable amount of fiberglass tape and epoxy before attempting any repairs on the outside. These are just a few thoughts -- without having seen it it's difficult to be sure what is going on. If I can be of further assistance let me know. Mark Lane *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > My 1999 standard layup fiberglass Romany Explorer with the skeg and front > deck-mounted bilge pump options weighs 76 lbs. > > I've seen at least one other manufacturer indicate that *their* specified weights are > for a stripped down shell, weighed without hatch covers, deck fittings, options, etc. > I suspect the 58 lbs. figure above (which I've also seen on the NDK spec sheet) is > for the shell alone. > > Anyone ordering one of these boats expecting to receive a ready-to-paddle 58 lb. boat > is going to be disappointed. This is often seen in the details of the Sea Kayaker reviews. Typical pattern: manufacturer lists weight at 52 lb. and SK weighs it at 64 lb. Thank god that folding kayak manufacturers have not taken to listing the weight of their boats without the hull :-) I try to weigh most of the models I review. Some do fib toward lighter weight but not by much. This has been balanced off by several models which actually weighed _less_ than the list weight. I have seen this with foldables with wooden frames. The weight of wood of a standard dimension can vary by quite a lot (I suspect the same can happen with fiberglass kayaks where slight changes in cloth and resin can swing weight in one direction or another for an individual boat). Feathercraft for some reason tends to list a slightly higher weight than what the boats come in at. For example, the old K-Light, which was listed at 34.5 lb. was about a pound or so light. Go figure. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Are the cracks anywhere near the support points (saddles or foam blocks) when transporting the boat? What about the type of roads that you have traversed with the boat on the vehicle top or trailered? Vibration can do remarkable amount of damage. ----- Original Message ----- From: M. Lenon <lenonm_at_milwaukee.tec.wi.us> To: <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Cc: Robert C. Cline <rccline_at_swbell.net> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 2:21 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] NDK layups... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robert C. Cline <rccline_at_swbell.net> > > > > So, how much do you want for your cracked up Explorer? I've got a Falcon 18 > > I'd be willing to trade. > > > > <LOL!> Yeah, that's it. "...cracked up Explorer. Listen buddy, I'll give ya $500 for > it. Take it or leave it." > > Such a deal. :-) > > There's no sign of leaking --- not yet, anyway. Others have convinced me that's > probably unlikely to happen. Still... > > >Ever thought about grinding way the gelcoat [gasp! gasp!] and adding a new > >layer of gel? > > I've wondered if that would be a good solution. I have no experience with this sort > of thing, and I've never worked with fiberglass. > > >Are these cracks along a seam? Do you see a difference in glass thickness > >on the underside of the hull/crack? > > *One* of the cracks stems from (or extends into?) the seam tape. Is this significant, > Robert? I thought that it might be, which is why I mentioned originally that the > cracks are right below the seam. My concern is that these cracks are indicative of > abnormal internal stresses, unrelated to external stresses per se (such as impact > damage), and that they portend future trouble that could be expensive to repair and > possibly even disastrous. > > I checked the hull, both inside and outside, in and around the cracked area, and I > don't see anything remarkable; it all looks the same as the surrounding area save for > the cracks on the outside. > > I haven't spoken to my dealer yet. I wanted to get some expert feedback from you > folks first, and "get educated." I'm out of my element here. I don't want to go into > my dealer armed only with ignorance, and I don't want to make unreasonable and unfair > demands of them. But, I need to learn what I can reasonably expect to resolve this > problem, and part of that, of course, is learning how serious the problem really is. > > The only thing I'm certain of is that these cracks should not have developed absent > abuse, and resale value has been diminished --- quite possibly, significantly. > Arguably, this is the biggest problem. > > Regards, > > Bruce > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: Sailboat Restorations, Inc. <sailboatrestorations_at_worldnet.att.net> <snip good advice> > It probably is some indication of the source of the stress. Is it near a > bulkhead? I would definitely reinforce the seam where the cracking is with > a reasonable amount of fiberglass tape and epoxy before attempting any > repairs on the outside. No, the cracks aren't anywhere near the bulkhead. In response to others' suggestions that tie-down straps and/or supports and vibration might have contributed to the cracks: no, the cracks are up front just beneath the front hatch and well away from the Yakima kayak cradles and the NRS flat straps. Good ideas, though. I've read that it's possible to damage a kayak by tightening the tie-downs too much, so I'm careful to avoid that. I employ a pair of NRS straps that fit just in front and behind the cockpit coaming, and I use bow and stern lines tightened just snug enough to avoid flapping in the wind. I doubt whether any of these contributed to these cracks. I just can't see any apparent reason for these cracks apart from the suggestion made by a few of you that it's very likely the result of less than optimal build quality. :-( By the way, the reason I haven't just taken my boat over to Rutabaga, my dealer, and let them examine it, is that they're about 100 miles away. I haven't had a chance to get over there yet. Maybe this weekend. Matt, I'm gonna check out those cracks again in the sunlight and try your suggestions. I WANT to believe they're not really cracks, but even if they prove to be real cracks, you guys are doing a great job of reassuring me and getting me settled down. Matt, I don't anticipate selling my boat anytime soon, but I appreciate your help and your generous offer to reassure any potential buyers. Thanks. :-) > These are just a few thoughts -- without having seen it it's difficult to be > sure what is going on. If I can be of further assistance let me know. > > Mark Lane Thanks, Mark. And thanks to all of you who have so generously shared your time and expertise to help. It just doesn't get any better than Paddlewise --- thanks, Jackie! Best Regards to all, Bruce *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bruce: I received this from NDK: > it seems that only the gelcoat has cracked as there is no indication of any > internal damage, so this is not a problem.This is likely to be caused by an > impact... >..... The solution is to dig > out the cracks with a sharp blade (before you fill with gelcoat, make sure the > surface is dry) . This needs to be done soon as water will enter the > glassfibre. > As regards to the outside seam strip, this is only a cosmetic addition to > cover the joint between the deck & hull, it serves no structural purpose. The > internal seam consists of a layer of 3"Diolen Tape and a layer of 2"Woven > Glass Tape, this forms the internal strength in the kayak. > Tell the guy not to worry, his kayak won`t fall apart !!! > > I WANT to believe they're not really cracks, but even if they > prove to > be real cracks, you guys are doing a great job of reassuring me and getting me > settled down. I think I'd be interested in getting the cracks sealed up whether you replace it with gel or Mark's suggestions. If you are worried about strength, you can always put a little more glass on the inside, under the area where the cracks are. Robert PS I still have that beautiful, almost new Eddyline Falcon 18 I'll trade you. It's of a comparable value new. Hardly a scratch on it...and what with your Explorer with all the cracks and what not.... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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