In a message dated 6/7/00 8:02:55 AM, mkayaks_at_oz.net writes: << There is a method to help you learn to roll without having to understand it (or picture it while you are upside down) on our website in the "Rescues" manual. You put a float on your paddle so you can do things in slow motion without losing your position. Start from the finish of the roll and work backwards towards the start in small steps (while succeeding at each step along the way rather than practicing failure). Windup and unwind. You've always just been there a few seconds before during the windup so you don't get confused about what to do and where to go next and have to think about it. >> Hi all, Matt, I "discovered" this technique quite by accident when I was learning to roll. Since I had no one that could spot me, I "invented" the technique for placing a paddle float on the end of my paddle. I continued to develop a learning sequence that worked on the "Hip snap" first then added the sweep and finally the capsize into the set up position. An interesting thing about this technique is that the student can feel the roll without actually being able to do one without the assisting float and as you said above there is minimal thought involved. Also the use of a float allows the student to slow down the sequence so that they can concentrate on the feel and the flow rather than the mechanics. All of this translates to a wonderful sensory learning experience, just gently repeat the exercise until it feels natural and it's almost too easy. Once the movements feel natural, the student can flip the paddle end-for-end and try the roll sans the float. If the roll fails, just switch the paddle back and roll with the float again. The variations are near endless, you can partially deflate the float to work your way towards using a bare paddle and to facilitate learning to keep the paddle at the surface during the sweep. Pulling ones body towards the surface during the sweep becomes a natural response to keeping the paddle blade at the surface. I have taught scores of people to roll using this technique. I never tire of the looks on their faces as the pieces fall together and they start to learn "the dance". This is one very good way to avoid the over analyzing that stops some people cold. I'm a little sad to hear that I wasn't the first but very proud to have found (in parallel) this (your) technique. Thanks for bursting my bubble but making my day! ;-) Jed Luby Goffstown, NH *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 07:55 AM 6/7/00 -0400, LedJube_at_aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 6/7/00 8:02:55 AM, mkayaks_at_oz.net writes: > >Hi all, > Matt, I "discovered" this technique quite by accident when I was learning >to roll. Since I had no one that could spot me, I "invented" the technique >for placing a paddle float on the end of my paddle. I continued to develop a >learning sequence that worked on the "Hip snap" first then added the sweep >and finally the capsize into the set up position. Hey wait a minute. I thought *I* discovered using a paddle float as a roll teaching aid. > Once the movements feel natural, the student can flip the paddle >end-for-end and try the roll sans the float. If the roll fails, just switch >the paddle back and roll with the float again. The variations are near >endless, you can partially deflate the float to work your way towards using a >bare paddle and to facilitate learning to keep the paddle at the surface >during the sweep. The only drawback using the paddle float is that people will tend to rely on using the paddle for the roll rather than the hipsnap. When I've taught it I begin by having them use the paddle float for support while they edge the boat over then practice hip snaps until it looks like they've got a good snap. Then I have them go over further and further, hip snapping up each time, and pay attention that they're keeping their hips loose and going into a good "C" position before hip snapping. Once they're able to completely capsize and come back up, I have them slide over, then bring the paddle shaft parallel to the boat, back to perpendicular and then roll up. Once they've got that down, I have them hold the paddle up a bit and just flop over, then get into a set up position with the paddle parallel to the boat, then perpendicular, then roll up. Then I start letting the air out of the paddle float... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>>>From: John Fereira <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] To Roll No More....oh the indignity! At 07:55 AM 6/7/00 -0400, LedJube_at_aol.com wrote:<<< >In a message dated 6/7/00 8:02:55 AM, mkayaks_at_oz.net writes: > >Hi all, > Matt, I "discovered" this technique quite by accident when I was learning >to roll. Since I had no one that could spot me, I "invented" the technique >for placing a paddle float on the end of my paddle. I continued to develop a >learning sequence that worked on the "Hip snap" first then added the sweep >and finally the capsize into the set up position. >>>Hey wait a minute. I thought *I* discovered using a paddle float as a roll teaching aid.<<< What can I say, great minds think alike ;-) I started teaching rolling using a float on the paddle not too long after I developed the outrigger paddle float rescue back in 1981 and the float (in hand) roll soon thereafter. Don't know if I was the first to do it and I suspect that Eskimos may have also done at least the float (hand) roll and used a float on the harpoon to roll sometimes. They carried floats on their back decks to give a harpooned animal something to drag around and keep the animal from sinking out of reach. I suspect that, much like once I had a float fixed on the end of a paddle it wasn't a very big step to use an existing float to teach learning to roll. [Paddlefloat rescue digression: Although I was unaware of them at the time I first did paddlefloat rescues there was a "paddle-wing" rescue that had been proposed (by someone named Reyes in the 1970's if I remember correctly) and shot down in its infancy by the British Canoe Union (BCU). It fixed the paddle to the rear deck on edge so the other (always feathered at 90 degrees) blade would lie flat to the water. No float was involved. Also in the 70's William Dyer (I believe) from Holland made a float out of an air splint and used it without fixing the other end of the paddle to the deck. The BCU ignored that too. Originally my outrigger paddlefloat rescue was roundly criticized by the BCU guys like Derek Hutchinson who would list all the faults with the paddle-wing, like having to stand the blade on deck vertically and fix it in that unstable position (that didn't apply to my rescue) as the reasons it wouldn't work. Even though paddle float rescues have caught on widely in North America over the last 19 years they are still widely criticized or only grudgingly accepted in areas of BCU influence around the world. When I first tried to show it to Derek he announced it wouldn't work and wouldn't even try it. When I later asked him what he would do if he for some reason found himself out of his boat and alone. He thought about it for a few seconds and answered "Pray". End of digression--I guess that attitude still riles me.] I originally meant to discuss the best float for teaching rolling since the others who use a paddlefloat seemed to indicate that they were using inflatable ones. Here is an excerpt from what I wrote in an early safety flyer (copyright 1981) for our customers and anyone else that wanted it--I gave away several hundred of our "Safety" and "Rescues" manuals at each symposium I spoke at on Sea Kayak Safety in the 1980's [Note: CPM operating system on a 64K Kaypro II with two temperamental single sided floppy drives for storage and back-up, composed in "Perfect Writer" to be typed out on a daisywheel printer--you old-timers might remember some of these now ancient relics] "A float attached to one end of the paddle can make learning to roll easier. It might even help those in an area where instruction is not available to learn to roll on their own, if they are especially determined and well coordinated. The paddle float allows you to go through the procedure in slow motion, building neural pathways that will help guide the motions when the float is removed. It also allows you to hold an intermediate position and analyze what must happen next in order to make the roll as effortless as possible. By gradually decreasing the amount of flotation you might be able to work up to a roll using only the paddle. A board of ethafoam (or some other similar closed cell foam) 1" to 1 1/2" thick works best. Cut it wider than the paddle blade (tapering the edges for streamlining) and securely hold it in place (tape it, strap it, or cut a pocket into it so it slips over the blade). CAUTION: the use of flotation makes it easy to get in the bad habit of "muscling up", so care must always be given to righting the KAYAK FIRST and removing your HEAD from the water LAST. Inflatable paddle floats (described later with self rescues) will also work but take care that you don't damage them on the pool bottom or sides. Also, unless the flotation has a relatively thin flat cross section it will seriously retard the sweep stage of the roll (which should be done very rapidly) making the [clarification: inflatable] float only suitable for practicing the final stages of the roll. _at_blankspace(2 lines) _at_center(ESKIMO ROLLS)" A little later Wade Wong came up with the wind up and unwind technique (for using a paddle float starting from the finish position of the roll). Wade and a few helpers (sometimes including me) could teach a pool full of paddlers to roll in a two hour period using these techniques and a little one on one instruction from him. Wade could look at somebody's roll attempt, analyze the problems with it and then tell the student just the right thing to do to get them to succeed within a few more tries. Wade is an incredible teacher. Last time I talked to him he was teaching other doctors how to do the latest in TV guided internal heart surgeries. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Snipped everything. Lots of good stuff has been mentioned throughout this thread and I'm just going to ramble for a minute without addressing anyone in particular. I used to teach using a float on the end of the paddle but have mostly stopped (depending on the student) using that technique. I stopped using it largely because I found that it was just one more intermediate step that could be eliminated. I also found that with many students it did more to encourage bad habits rather than good. I have also seen a few shoulder injuries result from this practice. I would not recommend aggressive bracing practice using the float at all. I'm not in any way saying that this technique should be abandoned entirely, just that it may not be needed as a step on the way to rolling if you are working with a good instructor. As with most techniques the choice is situational. I do think that practicing with a float without a paddle is extremely valuable, much more so than with the float attached to the paddle. Often attaching the float to the paddle sets up an expectancy of buoyancy and support from the paddle that isn't there without the float. It takes the focus away from the torso and hip rotation that are needed for a smooth roll and encourages students to muscle up on the paddle. If you must work by yourself, than yes it is another tool in your toolbox but if you are with an instructor there are probably better methods. A good roll is committed to muscle memory. The old saying is practice makes perfect, I have heard it better said as perfect practice makes perfect. If you practice poor technique than you are perfecting poor technique and committing bad habits to muscle memory. If you had a roll and it's taken a vacation don't make bad attempt after bad attempt. Give it a rest and come back to it another day. Work on your forward stroke it always needs improvement. One drill I really like is starting students at the finishing position and winding them up (tipping them over) into the setup and then guiding them through the roll. By forcing them into the correct position and moving their body through the motion you are helping them commit good habits to memory. It is also easy for the instructor to physically correct (push, nudge, tuck, lift) the students body into proper position working this way. Sometimes it's easier to take information in small doses. Dunno if the little esoteric tips I've been tossing out in a separate thread are helpful or not. I can keep 'em coming or shut 'em off as you wish. Happy Rolling, Rob Cookson "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rob Cookson wrote: > ...snip... Dunno if the little esoteric tips I've been tossing out in a > separate thread are helpful or not. I can keep 'em coming or shut 'em off as > you wish. I liked them all except the one about flexibility. I didn't want to hear that. Richard Frost *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 6/8/00 7:20:56 AM !!!First Boot!!!, mkayaks_at_oz.net writes: << I started teaching rolling using a float on the paddle not too long after I developed the outrigger paddle float rescue back in 1981 and the float (in hand) roll soon thereafter. Don't know if I was the first to do it and I suspect that Eskimos may have also done at least the float (hand) roll and used a float on the harpoon to roll sometimes. >> I found an article describing the "float roll" about a year ago. The bladder of course had an Inuit name "Avataq" and the roll carried the same name. A bladder made from seal skin was carried on the deck. In the event of capsize, the bladder was used to roll up. The technique is described more fully at http://www.seakayakermag.com/jun97/eskroll.htm. I wonder why this type of roll is not being taught to beginners. Bruce McC WEO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Outfit3029_at_aol.com wrote: > I found an article describing the "float roll" about a year ago. The > bladder of course had an Inuit name "Avataq" and the roll carried the same > name. A bladder made from seal skin was carried on the deck. In the event > of capsize, the bladder was used to roll up. The technique is described more > fully at http://www.seakayakermag.com/jun97/eskroll.htm. > I wonder why this type of roll is not being taught to beginners. What makes you think it isn't? I start beginners off doing hip snaps off each other's bows. When they can do an Eskimo rescue that way, I have them snap up off my hands. Whan I can tell that they are getting the motion from the snap and not from pushing with their arms, I give them an avataq. Well, we used to use an avataq, but they're getting hard to find, and anyhow the pool wardens complained about the smell and the oily sheen on the water from the seal fat. Now I give them an inflated paddlefloat or a PFD. They quickly learn that even a 15 pound PFD can't be used to climb on, that you have to maintain a good flexible snap. Later, we add the paddle to the equation. Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 07:55 AM 6/8/00 -0400, Outfit3029_at_aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 6/8/00 7:20:56 AM !!!First Boot!!!, mkayaks_at_oz.net writes: > ><< I started teaching rolling using a float on the paddle not too long after I > developed the outrigger paddle float rescue back in 1981 and the float (in > hand) roll soon thereafter. Don't know if I was the first to do it and I > suspect that Eskimos may have also done at least the float (hand) roll and > used a float on the harpoon to roll sometimes. >> > > I found an article describing the "float roll" about a year ago. The >bladder of course had an Inuit name "Avataq" and the roll carried the same >name. A bladder made from seal skin was carried on the deck. In the event >of capsize, the bladder was used to roll up. The technique is described more >fully at http://www.seakayakermag.com/jun97/eskroll.htm. > I wonder why this type of roll is not being taught to beginners. Have you seen the prices these days on inflatable seal skins? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 6/8/00 1:42:34 PM !!!First Boot!!!, jaf30_at_cornell.edu writes: << Have you seen the prices these days on inflatable seal skins? >> Well, frugal paddlers need worry no more. While prices for inflatable sealskins have become outrageous, there are alternatives for the cost conscious kayaker. One that comes to mind is a byproduct of Rabbi Goldberg's Circumcision School for the Blind. Due to the sight impaired status of students at the good Rabbi's school, the Rabbi teaches his circumcision technique using Elephants rather than humans. The byproduct is extremely pliable and weather resistant. Shrinkage may occur when subjected to cold water. Products in development at this time include cockpit covers, faux Avataqs and a nifty little ditty bag that can be converted into a two person liferaft simply by stroking several times. Interested in employment? As you may have surmised, the pay isn't much, but, the tips are big. Bruce McC WEO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 03:39 PM 6/8/00 -0500, Bob Klemick wrote: >If you're looking for cheap(like free) inflatables, for paddle floats or any >other appropriate use try box wine bladders. They're super strong, easy to >inflate, and reflect light like a mirror. I store two uninflated bladders >inside >of a produce net bag. When inflated they really clamp on to a paddle. They're >also fun to drain........................ bob klemick Audrey Sutherland also uses box wine bags as a seat for her inflatable. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:30 AM 06/09/2000 -0400, John Fereira wrote: >... box wine bags ... Another inexpensive (free) floatation device is the packing material used in the computer industry. The closed cell foam material used in packing large monitors is great. (Not the horrid styrofoam-like stuff. That is an environmental nightmare and isn't stable.) I've cut and shaped this stuff to be additional floation in my canoe; carved small wedges to act as floats for pumps, gear bags, VHF radio, etc.; made an angled platform to put things at a good reading angle; even a cheap float for a polypro line that I sometimes carry (in addition to a real throw bag). The mix of ultra low tech white, pink and blue packing material, constrasted with high tech junk like the VHF or GPS proves a good conversation piece, too. jerry. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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