I don't think I can do that, unless, of course, Doug tows me ;-) This "weakest member decides" approach is fine on land. The timid or nervous can just refuse to paddle and stay put. The group can then either split or wait depending on the situation and available transportation, etc. Although, a slower paddler should never be left behind, once on the water they should not be in charge either. On the water this "weakest member decides" approach runs into serious trouble unless the weakest member also happens to be the most experienced and prudent. Rarely the case. Often the prudent thing to do is to somehow make the slowest paddler speed up. The group doesn't need to spend any longer at risk than necessary if the weather, sea conditions or daylight are deteriorating. Arguing about what to do will just delay things further when the group should have been on their way already. There is a reason why ships aren't run democratically (much less by the new cabin boy). If you have the time and are in a safe location and are unhurried teaching the slower paddler some better more efficient paddling techniques might help (especially later in a longer trip). Usually there is no time to do that when danger is threatening. What if the timid paddler becomes frightened and starts to freeze up. Should they then order the group to sit out there with them in the face of the approaching gale and tide change while the frightened paddler rests up and tries to get their heart rate down. No, somebody with experience has to step in and say "Here's the reality. We can all stay here with Bruce and buck him up and try to encourage him (or plead with him to let us all paddle again) or we can have Bull here tow him and if anyone can't keep up with Bull and Bruce I'm gonna tow them". "But I don't want to be towed" says Dan, "I can get there on my own just not as fast as you guys". At this point what is sorely needed is a previously agreed upon leader whose word is law. "No Dave, that puts the whole group at risk and we are not going to let you fall behind, whoever can't keep up will be towed to increase the groups speed whether they like it or not". "Even though Bruce is being towed he will still need to be paddling as fast as he can go. He can't lessen his effort, the goal is to increase the groups overall speed in making it to safety and everyone needs to do their part to reach that goal to the very best of their abilities. Let's get going." If Dave refuses a tow clip into his bow and tow him anyway. If he gets his back up and starts back paddling or refuses to paddle at all to help (even though he is able) the option is then open to cut him loose and leave him on his own (and let him die, if that's what happens to him, with a clear conscience). Keel hauling would waste too much time and a kayak doesn't have a brig. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've been following this thread that has veered greatly from the gender defenses to general group dynamics with a lot of interest. I'm leaving tomorrow morning for a two week trip I'm leading in Notre Dame Bay, Newfoundland with two others. Matt took issue with the "weakest member decides" point of view, and appropriately so. On the other hand, an autocratic approach doesn't work for every situation either. There really is no black and white on this, but many shades of gray depending on the situation. What is really necessary is to work out expectations for how leadership is going to work and how decisions are going to be made, on land, before the paddle or before the expedition. The right style - directive, autocratic, collaberative, etc. is completely dependent on the variables of group size, paddling abilities, individual personalities and goals (e.g., speed vs. smell the roses), and conditions. Collaberative decision making (including weakest member decides) can be great where the time is available to make a decision (e.g., more challenging rather than less challenging route, whether to brave the elements at all if they're marginal, etc.) As Matt said, it doesn't work worth a darn when decisions have to be made fast. An additional problem with the "weakest member decides" style is that group dynamics (Storm Island?) sometimes draw weaker members into supporting an inappropriate collaberative decision because they don't want to look bad, hold up the group, etc. Sometimes the result is that the entire group doesn't get to experience something worthwhile because of the fears of one member. I've been in situations where a person's unwillingness to try something new/challenging kept them and the group from a learning experience that all could really have handled. Sometimes, it takes a more directive approach to make a decision (based on a gread deal of knowledge, experience, and observation) that is against the desires of the "weaker" individual. There's obviously a lot of psychology that goes into having a group work well together. What seemed to work for the La Nina expedition, was that they conciously worked out how these group dynamics were going to be handled - before the trip and at various times during the trip. It seemed that each of them were sufficiently secure in themselves, to be honest about their capabilities and would probably have accepted the "do it my way - right now!" type of decision when or if that was necessary rather than argue about it and waste time. As my little group (I've paddled with both of my partners quite a bit, expedition style with one, day paddles with the other) heads out, we'll be working out as best as possible - in advance - how we'll handle these questions. Thanks to everyone for their comments on the thread and reminding me not to forget to address this important issue. Roger Voeller ----- Original Message ----- From: Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net> To: Paddlewise <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Friday, July 14, 2000 3:20 AM Subject: [Paddlewise] Dictatorship of the Timid (was Slow Paddlers (was Group Dynamics (was Gender Defender (was KP)))) > I don't think I can do that, unless, of course, Doug tows me ;-) > > This "weakest member decides" approach is fine on land. The timid or nervous > can just refuse to paddle and stay put. The group can then either split or > wait depending on the situation and available transportation, etc. Although, > a slower paddler should never be left behind, once on the water they should > not be in charge either. On the water this "weakest member decides" approach > runs into serious trouble unless the weakest member also happens to be the > most experienced and prudent. Rarely the case. Often the prudent thing to do > is to somehow make the slowest paddler speed up. The group doesn't need to > spend any longer at risk than necessary if the weather, sea conditions or > daylight are deteriorating. Arguing about what to do will just delay things > further when the group should have been on their way already. There is a > reason why ships aren't run democratically (much less by the new cabin boy). > If you have the time and are in a safe location and are unhurried teaching > the slower paddler some better more efficient paddling techniques might help > (especially later in a longer trip). Usually there is no time to do that > when danger is threatening. What if the timid paddler becomes frightened and > starts to freeze up. Should they then order the group to sit out there with > them in the face of the approaching gale and tide change while the > frightened paddler rests up and tries to get their heart rate down. No, > somebody with experience has to step in and say "Here's the reality. We can > all stay here with Bruce and buck him up and try to encourage him (or plead > with him to let us all paddle again) or we can have Bull here tow him and if > anyone can't keep up with Bull and Bruce I'm gonna tow them". "But I don't > want to be towed" says Dan, "I can get there on my own just not as fast as > you guys". At this point what is sorely needed is a previously agreed upon > leader whose word is law. "No Dave, that puts the whole group at risk and we > are not going to let you fall behind, whoever can't keep up will be towed to > increase the groups speed whether they like it or not". "Even though Bruce > is being towed he will still need to be paddling as fast as he can go. He > can't lessen his effort, the goal is to increase the groups overall speed in > making it to safety and everyone needs to do their part to reach that goal > to the very best of their abilities. Let's get going." If Dave refuses a > tow clip into his bow and tow him anyway. If he gets his back up and starts > back paddling or refuses to paddle at all to help (even though he is able) > the option is then open to cut him loose and leave him on his own (and let > him die, if that's what happens to him, with a clear conscience). Keel > hauling would waste too much time and a kayak doesn't have a brig. > > Matt Broze > http://www.marinerkayaks.com > > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net > Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:20 AM 7/14/00 -0700, Matt Broze wrote: >I don't think I can do that, unless, of course, Doug tows me ;-) > >This "weakest member decides" approach is fine on land. The timid or nervous >can just refuse to paddle and stay put. The group can then either split or >wait depending on the situation and available transportation, etc. Although, >a slower paddler should never be left behind, once on the water they should >not be in charge either. On the water this "weakest member decides" approach >runs into serious trouble unless the weakest member also happens to be the >most experienced and prudent. Rarely the case. I'm glad that Matt mentioned this because this was something that was bothering me with the "let the slowest paddler lead the trip" suggestions. More often than not the "weaker paddler" is the least experienced paddlers and there is the possibility that any decisions made by that person might be made out of ignorance of all the possible scenarios of their decision. Letting the "weaker paddller" set the pace is one thing, but paddlers with more knowledge and experience should always have veto power over decisions made. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: > ... > This "weakest member decides" approach is fine on land. The timid or nervous > can just refuse to paddle and stay put. ... > On the water this "weakest member decides" approach > runs into serious trouble unless the weakest member also happens to be the > most experienced and prudent. Rarely the case. Often the prudent thing to do > is to somehow make the slowest paddler speed up. The group doesn't need to > spend any longer at risk than necessary if the weather, sea conditions or > daylight are deteriorating. This covers only two cases: the decision made on land as to whether to launch, and the decision that has to be made when trouble is imminent and there is a need to move to a safer position. For both of these cases I agree with Matt's analysis. In the latter case, where it is important to move from a dangerous position to one of safety with all due speed, "democracy" needs to be suspended by the leader. (The more experienced paddler needs to step forward and make a decision if there is no formal leader.) But there is a third situation which Matt does not address, this being the decision made on the water to go from a position of relative safety to one of increased risk. Examples include the decision to strike out along an exposed shore (with few or no landings) rather than a more protected alternative route; or the decision to undertake a significant crossing; or the decision to take a route through "boomer alley" rather than a safer alternative through deeper water. The role of the more experienced paddler in such cases is to explain the risk to the less experienced, but it is not the role of the more experienced paddler to make a decision regarding the level of acceptable risk. The decision to move from a position of relative safety to one of increased risk is one that should be made democratically, with every paddler being given a veto. These are decisions that often cannot be made from shore. At times a paddler will become more timid when observing conditions from the water. If a more timid paddler wishes to take the safer route, or poke around in a sheltered bay near shore waiting for more benign conditions in which to undertake a crossing, then that is what the group should do. No paddler should ever find himself in a position where he would have been safer had he gone paddling alone. Matt continues: > ... There is a reason why ships aren't run democratically There is also a reason why crews sometimes mutiny. Many crews have been killed by insufficient risk aversion on the part of the captain. Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- Dan Hagen <dan_at_hagen.net> wrote: > > This covers only two cases: the decision made on land as to whether > to > launch, and the decision that has to be made when trouble is imminent > and there is a need to move to a safer position. For both of these > cases > I agree with Matt's analysis. In the latter case, where it is > important > to move from a dangerous position to one of safety with all due > speed, > "democracy" needs to be suspended by the leader. (The more > experienced > paddler needs to step forward and make a decision if there is no > formal > leader.) But there is a third situation which Matt does not address, > this being the decision made on the water to go from a position of > relative safety to one of increased risk. Examples include the > decision > to strike out along an exposed shore (with few or no landings) rather > than a more protected alternative route; or the decision to undertake > a > significant crossing; or the decision to take a route through "boomer > alley" rather than a safer alternative through deeper water. > > The role of the more experienced paddler in such cases is to explain > the > risk to the less experienced, but it is not the role of the more > experienced paddler to make a decision regarding the level of > acceptable > risk. The decision to move from a position of relative safety to one > of > increased risk is one that should be made democratically, with every > paddler being given a veto. These are decisions that often cannot be > made from shore. At times a paddler will become more timid when > observing conditions from the water. If a more timid paddler wishes > to > take the safer route, or poke around in a sheltered bay near shore > waiting for more benign conditions in which to undertake a crossing, > then that is what the group should do. No paddler should ever find > himself in a position where he would have been safer had he gone > paddling alone. > > Matt continues: > > > ... There is a reason why ships aren't run democratically > > There is also a reason why crews sometimes mutiny. Many crews have > been > killed by insufficient risk aversion on the part of the captain. > > Dan Hagen > Thank you Dan, for putting so clearly what I wanted to say in fewer words than I could have managed. I would like to add only one thing... When choosing a group for a trip that could include exposed coastline and rough weather/water paddling, I would hope that each member of such a group would be sufficiently experienced. Knowing when to yield to another's better decision when the situation warrants, and also to not be a *weak and slow* paddler, rendering Matt's *complaint* about the *weakest and slowest* dictating any given situation a non-issue. If such a strong paddler were for some reason *weak and slow*, it would probably be due to injury or illness, and special considerations would have to be made by the group anyway. I would think (hope) that the difference in strength, experience, and paddling speed between the strongest and weakest in such a group would be minimal to begin with. If a *very experienced* group leader were to take a group of people with a much wider range of experience (including some truly *weak, slow, and inexperienced paddlers) into such potentially dangerous conditions, I would question that leader's ability to make a reasonable decision in the first place. Melissa *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Melissa wrote: > When choosing a group for a trip that could include exposed coastline > and rough weather/water paddling, I would hope that each member of such > a group would be sufficiently experienced. [...] > I would think (hope) that the > difference in strength, experience, and paddling speed between the > strongest and weakest in such a group would be minimal to begin with. Melissa makes a very important point. I think the decision about the trip starts well in advance, when planning who is participating. If you expect no weaker paddlers, there is no issue. If you expect weaker paddlers, say, by introducing a new paddler to kayaking, then plan for that. The only time this is out of your control is when you join a trip organized by someone else - especially outfitters - they unfortunately have no control over the claims of skill level made by the folks that buy into a trip. The approach I used to take is to allow the faster paddlers to take the lead but not get out of sight. They would be expected to take detours or yo-yo back and forth to take up the time diference between the fastest and slowest. There would be a requirement to maintain _only_ two groups, so every paddler has to take their pick - fast or slow. Having experienced the bad side of groups splitting up (one group got lost and eventually arrived nearly hypothermic), I learned long ago never to allow a complete split of the "meet you later" type. You're either on _my_ trip or you're not. I've taken a breather from leading trips of all types (paddle, ski, hike...) Too many frustrations with managing the above - I only go with people I know well now or go as a participant and lay back. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I agree with just about everything that others have said regarding this thread since I renamed it. The response is always situational. Going from a position of safety to one of greater danger is probably a better way of putting it but that is what I was trying to say when using the example of still being on land where there is an obvious safer choice that can be made. The point I wanted to make was that staying put isn't always the best choice but depends on the situation. Splitting the group is also risky so I hope it was clear that care must be taken to not create a group that is at greater risk because of the split unless that greater risk has been voluntarily entered into by all in that group. I rarely paddle with a group that has an assigned leader. A small group of strong paddlers can usually operate as a democracy with anybody with real strong feelings having veto power. My examples of a situation when a leader is essential were to point out the dangers of letting the weakest always decide. I was not saying it was always best to have a leader. The bigger the group and the less control one has as to who is in the group and the more likely it is that a leader needs to be agreed upon in advance. I can recall leading a club trip years ago where I insisted that the paddler in an old solo Pouch folder stay with the group and do a relatively short crossing in moderate seas rather than leave the group and circle the bay solo as he told me he was going to do to avoid the waves. The waves were only a foot to 1.5 feet high and we would be through them in ten or fifteen minutes. I pointed out to him that there were several strong paddlers who knew how to do rescues in the group and that if for some reason he couldn't be gotten back in his kayak to paddle if he capsized I was also carrying a military CO2 inflatable rubber survival raft as a back up. Since he started with the group I told him I felt responsible for him and wasn't going to just let him go out on his own half way through the day trip. I also explained that his route was not going to be as wave free as it had been when we came around that way because the wind had picked up during our lunch and his way back would also take a lot longer than crossing the bay. Once he made the short crossing in the waves he was elated he had done it and he felt he had learned a lot about handling his kayak in waves that he had been afraid to paddle in previously. conquering a fear is always a high. He thanked me for insisting he go with the group. Later we split the group. The weaker less experienced paddlers voluntarily made the more dangerous choice of getting into their automobiles and driving home. We more experienced paddlers chose the relative safety of another crossing out to an island and back in the wind and waves. Since we also had to drive home afterwards we only delayed our having to face the greatest risk that most people face in their lives. Statistically a driver living in an urban area has a 1 in 5000 chance of being killed in an automobile accident each year. Odds of serious injury are much more likely. Scary thought. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Perhaps another way to think of the situation is that "anyone (weakest or most experienced) can call for your 'OUT PLAN' " The O UT PLAN is the (hopefully prearranged) action you take if conditions become to bad for paddling. There may be different actions in the plan as you progress along your route. It could be that in certain areas the only plan is "tow the slow boat so we get to safety quickly". The point is that the "weakest" paddler does not make the decision as to what the group does. He (or anyone else in the group) does get to decide if the group switches from the main plan to the backup plan. Since I often paddle with groups of inexperienced paddlers, I (as the most experienced) have often switched to a backup plan even though I knew I would have no trouble paddling in the condtions. What I was not sure of was my ability to do rescue's on several kayaks in those conditions (my rescue technique is not that practiced). Before you talk someone out of the decision to go to a backup plan, make sure that you have no doubts about your ability to assist those who might need rescue in the condtions into which you are taking them. In the case Matt described he not only had himself, but several others who had more than enough rescue skills to assist the one paddler who was having second thoughts. The assigning of highly skilled people to stay close to one paddler is just really another OUT PLAN that works well in this case because of the strenghts of the other paddlers in the group. Discussing the backup plans before launching and identifying points on the routes where switching decisions can be easily made can give the "weaker" paddlers the confidence to push their limits a little if they know that its not an all or nothing decision. It can be also be useful to get them to make the "stay on shore" decision if the plan calls for long exposed sections without any easy 'OUTS'. Just some rambling thoughts from a "Timid" paddler. Mark J. Arnold MJAkayaker_at_aol.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
on 7/14/00 7:20 AM, Matt Broze at mkayaks_at_oz.net wrote: snip > If you have the time and are in a safe location and are unhurried teaching > the slower paddler some better more efficient paddling techniques might help > (especially later in a longer trip). snip the time teaching the slow paddler does not produce a significant improvement in paddling speed. However, occationally it does help and I remember one time that the improvement was so dramatic that I could hardly believe it. This happen a few years ago while teaching a one day kayak surf class for George Gronseth's Kayak Academy. Usually we have a breeze from the sea in the range of 10 to 15 knots or sometimes 20 knots but on this day it was in the 25 to 30 knot range. After the on-shore instruction and some time swimming in the surf I had each student launch in a sit-on-top surf kayak. The three men in the class were able to slowly make their way out in the surf against the wind but the other student, a woman, could not make any progress at all. With the force of the wind and the incoming surf against her she was just paddling in place a few feet from shore. I waded out to let her know that we would refund her money or let her reschedule for another day but decided to give her a little coaching on the forward stroke first. I taught her four things (1) torso rotation (2) reach, catching the water up by your feet (3) make sure the blade completly in the water throughout the stroke (4) lift out at your side. This lady listened to everything I said and made all these changes in her forward stroke and it wasn't too long before she was making her way out into the surf! She finished the whole class and had a blast doing it. As Matt Broze pointed out you can't always give a lesson on efficient paddling, depending on conditions, but if I can I try to teach the slow paddler the forward stroke technique, knowing that some (for whatever reason) are not able to make immediate improvements yet there are a few who will surprise you. Rex *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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