I had a chance to try and roll a K-Light on Saturday and gave up after 3 attempts. I had no problem flicking back off the bow of another boat but couldn't get any purchase on the Feathercraft. There was too much lateral movement. It felt like a couple of foam hip pads may do the trick? Does anyone roll a K-Light? If so, how did you outfit it? cya *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bob Denton wrote: > > I had a chance to try and roll a K-Light on Saturday and gave up after 3 > attempts. I had no problem flicking back off the bow of another boat but > couldn't get any purchase on the Feathercraft. There was too much lateral > movement. It felt like a couple of foam hip pads may do the trick? > > Does anyone roll a K-Light? If so, how did you outfit it? I haven't but have watched it done. Also had a lead article in one of my newsletters this year about rolling one. Apparently when the boat was first introduced in 1993, Chris Cunningham, editor of Sea Kayaker, got in one and rolled and rolled it over again. The person who I saw do it over and over again in a pool in Philadelphia was a first time roller, really learning on the K-Light how to roll. He had no particular padding inside (nor on him...a small fellow). He was also using the slippery seasock. He almost got an off side roll in the sessions I watched him. The secret? Obviously padding would help and there are sorts of approaches to this. But another few tricks to try are: --bring the foot pedals closer to you than is normally comfortable. This helps jam you in place more tightly driving your knees into the deck fabric for better grip. --recognize that the boat has a bit more inertia to it than a hardshell. So let the boat come up more on its own before doing a sweep or whatever roll you do (this I got from Ken Fink of Poseidon Kayaks in Walpole Maine, who regularly teaches people how to roll using K-Lights. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It is generally known that foldables with air-sponsons are very difficult to roll. On the other hand, they don't turn over in rough seas easily. But some people have done it. See: Dave rolls a Klepper http://www.vsb.cape.com/~mccue/docs/klepper.html In the July/August number of Kanu Magazin (in German) there was a photo of a Feathercraft Klondike (a double!) being rolled. With air-sponsons deflated, they indicated. But these are rare, exceptional performances. Reinhold Weber *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Reinhold Werner Weber wrote: > > In the July/August number of Kanu Magazin (in German) there was a photo of a Feathercraft Klondike (a double!) being rolled. With air-sponsons deflated, they indicated. > > But these are rare, exceptional performances. While it takes a lot to roll a double folding kayak, it is not exceptional. Any pair of good rollers can do it. I have seen it done with the double Klepper, which is wider than the Klondike by almost half a foot, and with the sponsons inflated. The hardest job may be in tipping the boat over in the first place. The pair I saw had to practically dive over the side while attached to their sprayskirts in order to get the boat to flip. But the issue of rolling a folding kayak is almost academic. They are not prone to tip and even a modicum of a brace will keep you upright in absolutely insane waters, or just working like the devil to stay centered in your boat will do. I first became really aware of this when I was out in a Klepper Aerius I with friends who were in hardshells. We were together in a particularly funny spot on the Connecticut coast in which waters were swirling and clashing around some islands. My friends were within a boat length or two of me and had to brace to keep their kayaks steady. I was so fascinated by their bracing that I put down my paddle, placed it in its paddle pocket and reached into my lunch bag. While in the very same conditions as they, I eat a half a sandwich watching them bracing. Most folding kayaks have a low brace built into them. They all can tip but they have to go pretty far over to do so. I am not certain that a folding kayak, except a very slim one like the Khatsalano, could be reliably rolled, i.e. a roll seeing you through like it might in a slimmer hardshell or skinboat. Rolling is more of a circus act, to be performed like the pair I saw with the Klepper and the guys in Germany mentioned above with their Feathercraft Klondike. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 07:21 AM 9/12/00 -0700, ralph diaz wrote: <snip> >But the issue of rolling a folding kayak is almost academic. They are >not prone to tip and even a modicum of a brace will keep you upright in >absolutely insane waters, or just working like the devil to stay >centered in your boat will do. <snip> >Most folding kayaks have a low brace built into them. They all can tip >but they have to go pretty far over to do so. Ralph, I think there is line between when folding kayaks are more stable or less stable than narrow hardshell boats, which I would like to define a little better and eliminate confusion. I am skeptical that folding kayaks are so stable in waters that some people on this list would call "absolutely insane". This is definitely a relative term, is it not? Never having paddled a folding kayak in rough seas, I cannot say for sure, but I have always thought that too much primary stability increases the chance of capsize in big steep waves or really nasty (by my metric) tide rips. For example, has anyone paddled a wide folding kayak in the tide rip behind the surf wave at Skookumchuck? Now that is what I call "insane waters" -- I have never seen a more confused mixture of 2-3 foot high boils with an occasional deep violent whirlpool. Even the hardcore whitewater crazies avoid that place, and choose to float down a 1/4 mile (in rodeo boats) before trying to cross that eddy fence. But if one were to find themselves in an eddy fence of that magnitude, I would rather be in a narrow "tippy" boat with great secondary stability than in wide "stable" boat with high primary stability. Then I would be more able to react with an insta-brace. In a less extreme example, such as steep wind waves, high primary stability tends to make the boat lie flat relative to the local water's surface. But if that surface is nearly vertical (as in a steep wave), then a capsize is imminent unless the paddler attempts an ill-advised down-wave brace (a danger for shoulder dislocations). A low primary, high secondary stability boat can just edge into the steep wave ever so slightly, ride over it, and have no fear of capsize. Again, since I have never paddled a folding kayak in rough water, at what point does the high initial stability become a drawback in terms of remaining upright? Thanks, Kevin Kevin Whilden Your Planet Earth http://www.yourplanetearth.org (206) 788-0281 (ph) (206) 788-0284 (f) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kevin Whilden wrote: > > > Ralph, I think there is line between when folding kayaks are more stable or > less stable than narrow hardshell boats, which I would like to define a > little better and eliminate confusion. > > I am skeptical that folding kayaks are so stable in waters that some people > on this list would call "absolutely insane". This is definitely a relative > term, is it not? I really don't know an absolutely definitive answer to your question. Folding kayaks have been in far hairer waters than I would ever want to be and have done fine. Examples: In 1990, a fellow Joe Weight took a double from Grenada to Puerto Rico and got caught in a hurricane in about a 60 mile crossing toward the end and didn't capsize. The hurricane was insane enough but he regularly was in pretty insane stuff. Two guys took a double folding kayak from Sydney to Darwin some 3,000 plus miles along the rugged surf eastern shoreline of Australia. They capsized, I believe just once in some 100 days of paddling. Some of the waters they were in were absolutely insane by any definition. A lot of the staying upright for these guys and hundreds of other expeditioners was due as much to the stability of the boats as the skill of the paddlers. Never having paddled a folding kayak in rough seas, I > cannot say for sure, but I have always thought that too much primary > stability increases the chance of capsize in big steep waves or really > nasty (by my metric) tide rips. For example, has anyone paddled a wide > folding kayak in the tide rip behind the surf wave at Skookumchuck? Now > that is what I call "insane waters" -- I have never seen a more confused > mixture of 2-3 foot high boils with an occasional deep violent whirlpool. > Even the hardcore whitewater crazies avoid that place, and choose to float > down a 1/4 mile (in rodeo boats) before trying to cross that eddy fence. Sounds ominous. I would not want to be in that stuff ever. Who would? > But if one were to find themselves in an eddy fence of that magnitude, I > would rather be in a narrow "tippy" boat with great secondary stability > than in wide "stable" boat with high primary stability. Then I would be > more able to react with an insta-brace. Greater secondary stability is only as useful as the paddler's ability to brace and use it constantly for long stretches of time. Again, it does sound like a challenging spot for any boat. I have no way of knowing how well a foldidng kayak would fair. I doubt that most kayakers in skinny tippy boats would do well either. It sounds like a place for our good friend, Superman Doug of BC! > > In a less extreme example, such as steep wind waves, high primary stability > tends to make the boat lie flat relative to the local water's surface. But > if that surface is nearly vertical (as in a steep wave), then a capsize is > imminent unless the paddler attempts an ill-advised down-wave brace (a > danger for shoulder dislocations). A low primary, high secondary stability > boat can just edge into the steep wave ever so slightly, ride over it, and > have no fear of capsize. Again, since I have never paddled a folding kayak > in rough water, at what point does the high initial stability become a > drawback in terms of remaining upright? It will at some point, definitely, be a drawback at about the point the boat was absolutely vertical on its side and would trip over its downside sponson. I know that many hardshell kayakers are getting good at getting their boats on their side and holding a good brace. But I have seen folding kayaks go over nearly that much and just right themselves. For example, it happened to me in my first months of paddling in my double foldable. I was going into surf near Coney Island. Fiddling with the rudder cord to drop it into the water, I let the boat get completly sideways to a pretty decent wave. We went over quite a bit, no bracing. I have no real idea of what degree of tilt we had but fellow experienced paddlers on the beach later said that they fully expected, from their own experience, that we would be windowshaded back toward the beach. Instead the boat righted itself. I finally got it pointed into the next wave which broke over our heads and came out the outer side soaked. There is no issue that a skinny boat in the hands of a very capable experienced paddler will do well in chaotic waters because of the superb bracing, sculling and rolling skills of the paddler using its secondary stability. But if you only have limited, less than superb skills when in such a tippy boat, the secondary stability will mean squat to you and you will capsize. In a folding kayak with its flex and stability, you can go into pretty insane stuff and the boat will help see you through. Don't get me wrong...folding kayaks can capsize and do. But in many instances in rough conditions, many paddlers have come back reporting that the boat saw them through without their doing much to keep upright much to their amazement. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Kevin, Can you name one instance where two paddlers of like skill were out in rough water, one in a stable boat and one in a narrow boat, where the narrow boat remained upright and the stable boat capsized? Cheers, -- Rob Cookson "I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the Atmosphere." Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Abigail Adams, February 22, 1787. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:00 AM 9/12/00 -0700, Rob Cookson wrote: >Hi Kevin, > >Can you name one instance where two paddlers of like skill were out in rough >water, one in a stable boat and one in a narrow boat, where the narrow boat >remained upright and the stable boat capsized? Hi Rob, You know something... I cannot name a situation like you describe. I also cannot name the converse either. It's weird, but I have never been on a sea kayak trip where someone has capsized unintentionally outside of the surf zone. It seems like I either paddle with people who are very skilled whitewater boaters, or in conditions that are very benign. I have capsized personally on solo trips, but that doesn't help either. But it sounds like you have an opinion on whether high initial stability can become a liability, so let's hear it! Kevin > > > > Ralph, I think there is line between when folding kayaks are more > > stable or > > less stable than narrow hardshell boats, which I would like to define a > > little better and eliminate confusion. > > > > I am skeptical that folding kayaks are so stable in waters that > > some people > > on this list would call "absolutely insane". This is definitely a > > relative > > term, is it not? Never having paddled a folding kayak in rough seas, I > > cannot say for sure, but I have always thought that too much primary > > stability increases the chance of capsize in big steep waves or really > > nasty (by my metric) tide rips. For example, has anyone paddled a wide > > folding kayak in the tide rip behind the surf wave at Skookumchuck? Now > > that is what I call "insane waters" -- I have never seen a more confused > > mixture of 2-3 foot high boils with an occasional deep violent > > whirlpool. > > Even the hardcore whitewater crazies avoid that place, and choose > > to float > > down a 1/4 mile (in rodeo boats) before trying to cross that eddy fence. > > But if one were to find themselves in an eddy fence of that magnitude, I > > would rather be in a narrow "tippy" boat with great secondary stability > > than in wide "stable" boat with high primary stability. Then I would be > > more able to react with an insta-brace. > > > > In a less extreme example, such as steep wind waves, high primary > > stability > > tends to make the boat lie flat relative to the local water's > > surface. But > > if that surface is nearly vertical (as in a steep wave), then a > > capsize is > > imminent unless the paddler attempts an ill-advised down-wave brace (a > > danger for shoulder dislocations). A low primary, high secondary > > stability > > boat can just edge into the steep wave ever so slightly, ride > > over it, and > > have no fear of capsize. Again, since I have never paddled a > > folding kayak > > in rough water, at what point does the high initial stability become a > > drawback in terms of remaining upright? > > Kevin Whilden Your Planet Earth http://www.yourplanetearth.org (206) 788-0281 (ph) (206) 788-0284 (f) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hello again Kevin and All, All I can offer is what I have observed over the years teaching and leading tours. My experience has been that with groups of paddlers with low to moderate skill levels, the boats of lower stability capsize first. (Though here's something funny for you, I only had one capsize in all of my tours this year and he was in a stable single Kayak, less than 20 'from shore in mirror calm conditions. He leaned WAYYYY over the side to look at his rudder and sploosh over he went.) I would suggest that if you put one expert in a tippy boat and one expert in a stable boat (both boats that the experts are familiar with) they would both stay upright until the point of exhaustion and then capsize. I will say that with two novices in the same situation I have always seen the skinny boat capsize first. The first sea kayak I ever paddled in rough water was a Dirigo, remember those? 27.5" wide. I paddled the Dirigo in some pretty rough stuff and never capsized. I have also paddled my Dawn Treader in similar conditions and stayed upright, same same Nordkapp. I guess there could be a point where too much stability becomes a problem, it's just that I have never witnessed it. I have lead people in double Folbots in conditions that I never would have taken them in in even moderately beamy singles. Stability can be an advantage. As you and I know each other, I think you also know that my preference in personal boats leans towards skinny tippy little craft. Why? Because they are fun! If you said: "Rob we're going to drop you into this hurricane and we want you to survive as long as you can, pick a boat." I would opt for a Godzilla or an old Response, both stable and easy to roll and control. Hey I might as well have some fun surfing before I go! Anyway, just things I've noticed. Cheers, Rob Cookson "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin > -----Original Message----- > From: Kevin Whilden [mailto:kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org] > Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 9:57 AM > > At 09:00 AM 9/12/00 -0700, Rob Cookson wrote: > >Hi Kevin, > > > >Can you name one instance where two paddlers of like skill were > out in rough > >water, one in a stable boat and one in a narrow boat, where the > narrow boat > >remained upright and the stable boat capsized? > > Hi Rob, > You know something... I cannot name a situation like you describe. I also > cannot name the converse either. It's weird, but I have never > been on a sea > kayak trip where someone has capsized unintentionally outside of the surf > zone. It seems like I either paddle with people who are very skilled > whitewater boaters, or in conditions that are very benign. I have > capsized > personally on solo trips, but that doesn't help either. But it > sounds like > you have an opinion on whether high initial stability can become a > liability, so let's hear it! > Kevin > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> my preference in > personal boats leans towards skinny tippy little craft. Why? Because they > are fun! Hi Rob, Just curious. What is your personal preference? Jack Fu 47°38'N 122°08'W PS: We've never met but I always hear good things about you from people you have taught. One thing they say about about you that really struck a cord in me is that you are economical and to-the-point with words. You tell the student what he needs at that moment rather than go into a big theoretical lecture. As a result the student gets it right away rather than have to digest a lot of verbiage. I learned this lesson when I was a ski instructor many years ago. Even when say three things needed correcting (for example edging the outside ski more, pushing the outside knee in more, twisting the torso more toward the outside), I would tell the student to do only one (or at most two) of those things at any time. When we got that worked out I'd bring out the next point. That way the student does not feel overwhelmed. -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Rob Cookson Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 10:35 AM To: Kevin Whilden Cc: Paddlewise (E-mail) Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks (was Re: Rolling a K-lite) Hello again Kevin and All, All I can offer is what I have observed over the years teaching and leading tours. My experience has been that with groups of paddlers with low to moderate skill levels, the boats of lower stability capsize first. (Though here's something funny for you, I only had one capsize in all of my tours this year and he was in a stable single Kayak, less than 20 'from shore in mirror calm conditions. He leaned WAYYYY over the side to look at his rudder and sploosh over he went.) I would suggest that if you put one expert in a tippy boat and one expert in a stable boat (both boats that the experts are familiar with) they would both stay upright until the point of exhaustion and then capsize. I will say that with two novices in the same situation I have always seen the skinny boat capsize first. The first sea kayak I ever paddled in rough water was a Dirigo, remember those? 27.5" wide. I paddled the Dirigo in some pretty rough stuff and never capsized. I have also paddled my Dawn Treader in similar conditions and stayed upright, same same Nordkapp. I guess there could be a point where too much stability becomes a problem, it's just that I have never witnessed it. I have lead people in double Folbots in conditions that I never would have taken them in in even moderately beamy singles. Stability can be an advantage. As you and I know each other, I think you also know that my preference in personal boats leans towards skinny tippy little craft. Why? Because they are fun! If you said: "Rob we're going to drop you into this hurricane and we want you to survive as long as you can, pick a boat." I would opt for a Godzilla or an old Response, both stable and easy to roll and control. Hey I might as well have some fun surfing before I go! Anyway, just things I've noticed. Cheers, Rob Cookson <snip> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Jack, I own an old P&H Dawn Treader, a PWS Seal, and an old wildwater boat (made by a local, great old guy, wish I could remember his name) as well as a handful of canoes. I spend most of my time in the Dawn Treader or in a Romany Explorer or the Romany 16'. And thanks for the compliments regarding instruction. Cheers, -- Rob Cookson "I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the Atmosphere." Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Abigail Adams, February 22, 1787. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jack Fu [mailto:jack.fu_at_worldnet.att.net] > Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 12:14 PM > To: Paddlewise; Rob Cookson > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks (was Re: Rolling > a K-lite) > > > > my preference in > > personal boats leans towards skinny tippy little craft. Why? Because > they > > are fun! > > Hi Rob, > > Just curious. What is your personal preference? > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rob wrote (or was it Kevin?) : (SNIP) > > I guess there could be a point where too much stability becomes a problem, > it's just that I have never witnessed it. I have lead people in double > Folbots in conditions that I never would have taken them in in even > moderately beamy singles. Stability can be an advantage. > The point where form stability (wide and shallow vs narrow and deep) becomes a liability occurs in breaking beam seas. My web site has a rudimentary discussion of this and you can get the full lowdown in Marchaj's "Seaworthiness: The Forgotten factor". The form stability increases the capsizing moment in breaking seas and can overpower the ability of the paddler to counteract it. I would guess that most capsizes of folding boats occur during attention lapses. When paddling canoes (36" wide) in the open ocean I never once had even a mild concern. Mind, we had fairly heavy loads but the conditions reached the "impossible to make headway level". So long as one remains head on to seas, form stability does not cause many problems. For this reason, those relying upon form stability usually make use of drogues or sea anchors to keep the boat normal to seas. This of course, does not mean that narrow boats work a whole lot better in these conditions except in the hands of skilled paddlers. John Winters *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi John and All, > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of 735769 > > > Rob wrote (or was it Kevin?) : It was me. Thought this might draw you out-always a good thing. ;) > > (SNIP) > > > > > I guess there could be a point where too much stability becomes > a problem, > > it's just that I have never witnessed it. I have lead people in double > > Folbots in conditions that I never would have taken them in in even > > moderately beamy singles. Stability can be an advantage. > > > > The point where form stability (wide and shallow vs narrow and deep) > becomes a liability occurs in breaking beam seas. My web site has a > rudimentary discussion of this and you can get the full lowdown > in Marchaj's > "Seaworthiness: The Forgotten factor". The form stability increases the > capsizing moment in breaking seas and can overpower the ability of the > paddler to counteract it. I have no doubt that this holds true in theory. It is just that I have never witnessed it in kayaking. The only reason I mention it at all is I have heard members of the cult of the skinny boat tell new paddlers that a skinny tippy boat is much more seaworthy than one that is more stable. I just haven't seen a case where a kayaker was in a boat with such high form stability that they could not lean it far enough into a breaking wave to prevent capsize. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, I just haven't seen it. > > I would guess that most capsizes of folding boats occur during attention > lapses. When paddling canoes (36" wide) in the open ocean I never once had > even a mild concern. Mind, we had fairly heavy loads but the conditions > reached the "impossible to make headway level". Attention lapse or worse yet-incorrect response to a given condition, e.g.. leaning away from the wave while doing a high air-brace. <SNIP> > This of course, does not mean that narrow boats work a whole lot > better in > these conditions except in the hands of skilled paddlers. Yup, that's all I'm saying. Cheers, -- Rob Cookson "I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the Atmosphere." Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Abigail Adams, February 22, 1787. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rob wrote: > > I have no doubt that this holds true in theory. It is just that I have > never witnessed it in kayaking. The only reason I mention it at all is I > have heard members of the cult of the skinny boat tell new paddlers that a > skinny tippy boat is much more seaworthy than one that is more stable. I > just haven't seen a case where a kayaker was in a boat with such high form > stability that they could not lean it far enough into a breaking wave to > prevent capsize. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, I just haven't seen it. Most of the people who paddle in these conditions have a lot of skill (at least the ones who survive :-)) and I confess that I try to avoid such conditions as much as possible although avoidance does pose problems in the North Atlantic. To get an idea of the conditions try side surfing into a beach in plunging breakers. :-0 (SNIP) > > Attention lapse or worse yet-incorrect response to a given condition, e.g.. > leaning away from the wave while doing a high air-brace. No doubt. You can find a good story about what happens in Hannes Lindemann's "Alone at Sea" . He capsized when his sea anchor line failed. Drifted sideways and capsized. Of course, this had nothing to do with a lack of skill. He was sleeping at the time I think. > > > This of course, does not mean that narrow boats work a whole lot > > better in > > these conditions except in the hands of skilled paddlers. > > Yup, that's all I'm saying. Yes, I think a lot of people leap to conclusions about what "is best" as universal rule when it really amounts to "what works best for me and what I do". So long as paddlers recognise the down side of a boat's stability characteristics and allow for it they can stay out of trouble. Low form stability boats require generally higher skill levels and more constant attention most of the time while high form stability boats can lull one into a false sense of security and require either a lot of attention in breaking seas or some other means of keeping the boat normal the the sea train. You pays your money and takes your choice. Cheers, John Winters Web site address http://home.ican.net/~735769 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rob Cookson wrote: > > If you said: "Rob we're going to drop you into this hurricane and we want > you to survive as long as you can, pick a boat." I would opt for a Godzilla > or an old Response, both stable and easy to roll and control. Hey I might > as well have some fun surfing before I go! Funny you would say that. I was out in an area of converging waves Sunday in my Godzilla. Talk about confused seas, waves were hitting me from literally every direction. A couple of times I was surfed straight away from the beach. Not big waves, but the clapotis was about eye height. The striking thing was, that boat is so stable I didn't need to brace or even edge much, even when a blindside wave broke right on my shoulder. Of course if you need to put it on edge, it's no problem to lay your ear in the water. Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Interesting. I notice the extended paddle roll.. I'll try again later this week. cya *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Reinhold Werner Weber <r.weber_at_sulb.uni-saarland.de> writes: << It is generally known that foldables with air-sponsons are very difficult to roll. ... >> What type of boat do you normally roll, Reinhold? There's a couple of guys in NYC who roll their Klepper Aerius II on the Hudson (without special outfitting, I believe). The K-Lite rolls rather well actually, as does the Khatsalano. Ralph Diaz's advice about jamming your legs under the deck helps if you have not yet outfitted the boat to suit your build. The trick is to keep your heels close together and splay out your knees under the coaming to also gain sufficient lateral hold. I have sculled a K1 with both ears in the water and had no trouble at all getting back up (the owner / dealer asked me not to roll because he did not want to get an aluminium framed boat full of saltwater in case I punched out :-) And, dare I point it out, the Pouch singles E65 (no sponsons) and E68 (sponsons and 27" beam) roll with little trouble (pictures on www.PouchBoats.com to prove it in the case of the latter). Grinning from ear to ear ... Ralph C. Hoehn Ralph_at_PouchBoats.com http://www.PouchBoats.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, 12 Sep 2000 FoldingBoats_at_aol.com wrote: > What type of boat do you normally roll, Reinhold? > Why should I normally roll my Klepper?? I've never heard that getting its canvas deck wet will make it last longer! Rolling a foldable with air-sponsons is a circus act, really fun, but you don't need it. I have been watching Faltboot.de (the German folding news group) now for some time, but I haven't noticed yet a discussion about rolling foldables. That is difference with respect to plastic boats, where it is an important safety feature. > > And, dare I point it out, the Pouch singles E65 (no sponsons) and E68 (sponsons and 27" beam) roll with little trouble (pictures on www.PouchBoats.com to prove it in the case of the latter). > I am looking forward to see a Pouch RZ 96 double being rolled on your site. This would be some kind of "Ersatz" to PW Members for the picture of the Klondike (print only). > > Grinning from ear to ear ... > But let's get a bit more serious: I wrote that folders with air-sponsons are dificult to roll, not foldables in general. Let's remember that the eskimo-roll was re-invented by Eddi Hans Pawlata in the twenties in a slim greenland style folding kayak. For an example see: http://www.mariangunkel.de/moell.html (It's the Gesa-Möll Marian Gunkel, maintainer of Pouch inofficial has acquired and restored. German text and lots of pictures.) These were folding kayaks to be rolled. Today they have nearly died out. Two models subsist: Nautiraid Greenlander (with 'stabilairs') Pouch Falt-Eski Both don't seem to be commercial successes. Perhaps you might comment on the Falt-Eski. Reinhold Weber *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:36 AM 9/12/00 +0200, Reinhold Werner Weber wrote: >It is generally known that foldables with air-sponsons are very difficult to >roll. On the other hand, they don't turn over in rough seas easily. > >But some people have done it. See: > >Dave rolls a Klepper >http://www.vsb.cape.com/~mccue/docs/klepper.html If he didn't have the rudder up he might have been able to do it without an extended paddled. > >In the July/August number of Kanu Magazin (in German) there was a photo of a >Feathercraft Klondike (a double!) being rolled. With air-sponsons deflated, >they indicated. I friend of mine has rolled his Seaward Naia (a 30" wide double) by himself and with one other person. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Couldn't resist a point-by-point here: RH: What type of boat do you normally roll, Reinhold? RWW: Why should I normally roll my Klepper?? I've never heard that getting its canvas deck wet will make it last longer! RH: Pickling it in brine helps to check the rot, just don't wash it with fresh water later! My RZ85 (double) has survived 30 years of such "abuse" :-) RWW: Rolling a foldable with air-sponsons is a circus act, really fun, but you don't need it. RH: Most of the time you don't need your PFD, GPS, first aid kit, tow rope ... in fact I don't need to be able to do a handstand either, but practicing it has certain indirect benefits nonetheless. As I pointed out previously: Bracing, sculling and rolling practice is a good back-up to (boat-) form-stability complacency! RWW: I have been watching Faltboot.de (the German folding news group) now for some time, but I haven't noticed yet a discussion about rolling foldables. RH: Excellent point. I'd better start one. Or do you want to? :-) RWW: That is difference with respect to plastic boats, where it is an important safety feature. RH: I expect that most hard shell paddlers never actually need a roll either. Depends on the boat, the paddling circumstances etc. Ralph Diaz has written eloquently on the subject with regard to folding boats here recently, so no need to go into it further. RH: And, dare I point it out, the Pouch singles E65 (no sponsons) and E68 (sponsons and 27" beam) roll with little trouble (pictures on www.PouchBoats.com to prove it in the case of the latter). RWW: I am looking forward to see a Pouch RZ 96 double being rolled on your site. This would be some kind of "Ersatz" to PW Members for the picture of the Klondike (print only). RH: I take that as a challenge :-)). But I need a partner for this: My usual bow man is only 3 feet tall. Anyone Wise Paddlers in the Stamford CT area up for it? On-water demo day in South Norwalk CT coming up this Saturday ... RH: Grinning from ear to ear ... DWW: But let's get a bit more serious: ... RH: And here I was trying not to be a "typical" German. DWW: ... I wrote that folders with air-sponsons are dificult to roll, not foldables in general. Let's remember that the eskimo-roll was re-invented by Eddi Hans Pawlata in the twenties in a slim greenland style folding kayak. RH: 1927 it was. Franz von Alber was next and the Rautenberg brothers probably have a justified claim to having developed a roll independently. "Kipp Kipp Hurra! Im reinrassigen Eskimokajak!" Do you have access to a copy? RWW: For an example see: http://www.mariangunkel.de/moell.html (It's the Gesa-Möll Marian Gunkel, maintainer of Pouch inofficial has acquired and restored. German text and lots of pictures.) RH: He has so far refused to send it over here for me to "test". (See, Marian, now it's out in the open and you're embarrassed. I warned you about this!!) RWW: These were folding kayaks to be rolled. Today they have nearly died out. Two models subsist: Nautiraid Greenlander (with 'stabilairs') Pouch Falt-Eski Both don't seem to be commercial successes. Perhaps you might comment on the Falt-Eski. RH: The Pouch Falt-Eski clearly and regrettably did not appeal to a large enough market to secure its commercial viability. The boat was designed for one particular paddler in such a way as to suit his not-so-standard dimensions. If you're going to spend the kind of money that it takes to get a commercial builder to create such a craft, you want it to fit perfectly, after all, Arctic kayaks were built specifically for each paddler. But never say never in the context of a Pouch Falt-Eski ... Also, there is a surprisingly large "underground" of folding kayak builders out there. If you're interested, drop me a line off-list, so we don't bore the rest of the PaddleWisenheimers to tears with more "mere" folding kayak stuff. :-) Ralph C. Hoehn Ralph_at_PouchBoats.com http://www.PouchBoats.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
FoldingBoats_at_aol.com wrote: > RWW: These were folding kayaks to be rolled. Today they have nearly died out. Two models subsist: > Nautiraid Greenlander (with 'stabilairs') > Pouch Falt-Eski The Nautiraid Greenlander went through 3 generations in about a dozen years. The current one is 27 inches wide and not meant to roll. The original Nautiraid Greenlander was 19 inches wide without air sponsons. It was highly rolleable. It was also highly unpaddleable for most people and was not a success (it was later given sponsons that took the boat to about 23-24 inch beam but it too did not sell well). For some reason folding kayaks that are on the narrow side often seem much more tippy than a hardshell of the same dimensions. Take for example the Feathercraft Khatsalano without sponsons which has a beam of around 22 inches. It feels more tippy than a hardshell of that beam or of even 21 inch beam. That particular model, as well as the Khatsalano with sponsons, seems to want to tip to one side when at rest, i.e. rest on one chine or another. It is disconcerting until you get used to it. It leaves you with a sideways slouch. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Reinhold Weber wrote: > I have been watching Faltboot.de (the German folding news group) now for some time, but I haven't noticed yet a discussion about rolling > foldables. That is difference with respect to plastic boats, where it is an important safety feature. This might be a function of the German folding kayakers in general: they seem to be rather conservative in learning "new" things and they are also quite lazy whern it comes to safety issues. Wearing a PFD almost all the time puts me into the position of an outsider (although the call for more safety begins to work!). The same with things like paddle or bracing techniques. If I recall it correctly, there are more fatalities among the German touring paddlers than among the WW paddlers (the latter are very safety concious). Ralph Hoehn: >> And, dare I point it out, the Pouch singles E65 (no sponsons) and E68 (sponsons and 27" beam) roll with little trouble (pictures on www.PouchBoats.com to prove it in the case of the latter). Reinhold Weber: > I am looking forward to see a Pouch RZ 96 double being rolled on your site. This would be some kind of "Ersatz" to PW Members for the picture of the Klondike (print only). I'll be putting that Klondike picture some place on my website so that PW members can have a look too. I won't be able to get my hands on a RZ 96 double soon, so I have to rely on some willing American paddlers rolling Ralphs boat on the demo day in CT. > But let's get a bit more serious: I wrote that folders with air-sponsons are dificult to roll, not foldables in general. Let's remember that the eskimo-roll was re-invented by Eddi Hans Pawlata in the twenties in a slim greenland style folding kayak. For an example see: > http://www.mariangunkel.de/moell.html > (It's the Gesa-Möll Marian Gunkel, maintainer of Pouch inofficial has acquired and restored. German text and lots of pictures.) Shame on me, I don't have any pictures with the boat on the water yet (although I paddled it twice since I got the new skin last week). The Moell-Kayak had been constructed to paddle mainly WW but also coastal water with some touring luggage. Rolling in it is definitively easy and the boat contact can only be compared to a Kathsalano. Unfortunately, the boat has only been manufactured in the 50's an early 60's and some 20 models were produced. On rolling: I can roll a K-Light very easily as well as an Pouch E 68, and with some little difficulties my 45 year old Pouch E65. As has been stated already, rolling a kayak is mainly a matter of good boat contact and good technique: both the K-Light and the E 68 provide very good boat contact. > These were folding kayaks to be rolled. Today they have nearly died out. Some German kayakers are quite successful in designing and building foldable sea kayaks. There's a world besides the commercial boat builders ... :-) > Two models subsist: > Nautiraid Greenlander (with 'stabilairs') > Pouch Falt-Eski > Both don't seem to be commercial successes. Perhaps you might comment on the Falt-Eski. I am not Ralph but may I comment? The Pouch Falt-Eski (www.pouch-inoffiziell.de/boote/falteski.html in German) had been designed by someone more than 2 meters (thats somewhere above 6 ft ..): apparently the boat wasn't very well received by the market (also due to some changes in the ribs that improved the boats initial stability) so Pouch decided to stop it's production. In my opinion and in the opinion of the few Falt-Eski owners, the boat tracks really great and it handled good on choppy waters. So, the boat might not be dead. On commercial success: both boats aim for a very small target group. Since the folding kayak market is a niche itself, those boats really *can't* be commercial successes. Disclaimer: I am sympathising with Pouch and am the webmaster of Pouch-inoffiziell.de (non commercial) and PouchBoats.com (commercial). Regards, Marian Marian Gunkel Berlin, Germany http://www.mariangunkel.de *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Ralph, I, for one, am not bored at all; can you put me in contact with these brave souls in the "underground"?! I would love to build a high-performance folding kayak. I initially considered a skin-on-frame for my next project, but thought, "Hey, why not make it a folder!?" Ralph Hoehn wrote: >Also, there is a surprisingly large "underground" of folding kayak >builders out there. If you're interested, drop me a line off-list, so >we don't bore the rest of the PaddleWisenheimers to tears with more >"mere" folding kayak stuff. :-) -- Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 2000 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.geocities.com/shawnkayak/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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